posted
I'm not sure where to file this: under, "Man, I wish another person had bercome Pope." or "The media distorts the truth about the Catholic Church." or maybe under "I can't believe someone on Hatrack didn't get to this before me."
Anyway, despite the attempt to portray it as if the Pope has said as Pope that Harry Potter is evil, what actually seems to be the case is that back when he was the Head Inquisitor, Pope Benedict, nee Cardinal Ratzinger, expressed as his personal opinion that he thought that the Harry Potter books were subtlely seducing children away from being good boys and girls. Still not exactly a positive face you want to have for the head of your church, but quite a bit different from what's being portrayed.
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posted
Well, as Jon Stewart said on the Daily Show, if anyone knows how to seduce young children. . .
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posted
Actually, I can't help but think the books teach kids the best values of all. Do the right thing, no matter what. That good and evil are not that simple. Aw, man, does she do a good job with that series.
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posted
I personally think that J.K. Rowlink needs to turn the series in a way that makes Harry evil but Voldemort the good one. And maybe OSC should write...
Oh, wait, OSC is writing everything! !
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quote:Pope Benedict, nee Cardinal Ratzinger, expressed as his personal opinion that he thought that the Harry Potter books were subtlely seducing children away from being good boys and girls.
I fail to see what is wrong with a religious leader expressing a personal opinion about a book. Granted, you may not agree with his opinion, but he's certainly entitled to have one, is he not?
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posted
The whole underlying casualness with which magic is used to subvert muggles is chilling to me, especially the ongoing memory modification which no one in the books seems to take issue with.
That said, I'm a huge fan of the books. I don't expect my books to perfectly reflect morality. Discussing deviations, however, seems like a morally profitable thing to do.
posted
I'm a huge fan of the books, but I fail to see a problem here. He's not calling for the books to be banned or censored. He's expressing his dislike of them.
That's not bad or wrong, that's just doing what everyone does...share an opinion.
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posted
Dag, that's one thing I have a problem with too. I enjoy the books and I'm a fan, too, but I dont' think the books are perfect. As I said in another thread, though I don't expect to read only books that reflect my personal view of morality nor do I expect my children to only read those types of books. (How boring that would be!)
But talking about them, saying "Hey, I don't like this about this series of books" is something that shouldn't be sneered at. JK Rowling is not above reproach and her books aren't perfect. I really resent the implication that anyone who objects to a part of the books is on par with zealous Christians that want them all banned and burned. It is quite possible to still like and enjoy the books, and object to some of the moral lessons within them.
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quote:"It is good that you enlighten us on the Harry Potter matter, for these are subtle seductions that are barely noticeable, and precisely because of that have a deep effect and corrupt the Christian faith in souls even before it could properly grow."
goes somewhat further than suggesting that there may be some morally gray areas in the books and calling for a discussion of them.
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posted
There's nothing wrong with him having an opinion. Are you guys ok with us having the opinion that his opinion is ridiculous? I'm ok with you guys being of the opinion that it's not ok for us to have the opinion that his opinion is ridiculous, by the way.
quote:goes somewhat further than suggesting that there may be some morally gray areas in the books and calling for a discussion of them.
First, let me clarify. I don't think those are gray areas. I think the idea that it is acceptable to assault someone's mind because they saw something you don't want them to see is evil. It's not gray.
Second, he is praising her for her discussions on what he considers to be "barely noticeable" problems. It's the discussion he's praising ("enlighten us").
It's still discussion.
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posted
Yeah. I don't think violating someone's memory just because you don't want the "inferiors" (and let's face it, MOST of the Wizarding World seems to consider Muggles inferior) to know about the cool things one does is a "it could be good, could be bad" thing.
Hagrid's line about Magic Users being secret because "then the Muggles would be wanting magic solutions to their problems" has been revealed to only be part of the truth. Just as most Wizard don't consider the other magic-using species to be more than servants or animals...they consider "Muggles" to be lesser beings, or even worse...toys.
Sorry to go so very much off topic.
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quote:Yeah. I don't think violating someone's memory just because you don't want the "inferiors" (and let's face it, MOST of the Wizarding World seems to consider Muggles inferior) to know about the cool things one does is a "it could be good, could be bad" thing.
Hagrid's line about Magic Users being secret because "then the Muggles would be wanting magic solutions to their problems" has been revealed to only be part of the truth. Just as most Wizard don't consider the other magic-using species to be more than servants or animals...they consider "Muggles" to be lesser beings, or even worse...toys.
Sorry to go so very much off topic.
Yea but I think that's a realistic portayal of what would happen in a wizarding society that had to keep themselves secret from muggles, don't you?
On the other hand, all the good characters consider muggles to be equals. Why then do they manipulate memory without a second thought? We return to Hagrid's quote for the answer.
People who think Harry Potter is morally questionable = nuts. And that's a a fact!
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quote: I think the idea that it is acceptable to assault someone's mind because they saw something you don't want them to see is evil.
It's better than killing them.
quote:Yeah. I don't think violating someone's memory just because you don't want the "inferiors" (and let's face it, MOST of the Wizarding World seems to consider Muggles inferior) to know about the cool things one does is a "it could be good, could be bad" thing.
Hagrid's line about Magic Users being secret because "then the Muggles would be wanting magic solutions to their problems" has been revealed to only be part of the truth. Just as most Wizard don't consider the other magic-using species to be more than servants or animals...they consider "Muggles" to be lesser beings, or even worse...toys.
So many problems with this. First, it is a basic premise (the prime directive, and face it, we do it with tribal cultures we are studying too) that there be non-interference in their natural development. Second, white people have always had the attitude that people of other various skin colors were more or less servants or animals and even in the extremes, toys. So, I don't know why they would have a problem with wizards treating muggles they way they have historically treated other races. And if Muggles found out about their abilities, they'd want the same abilities. That is a hoot. Cause I can't imagine the society that, when faced with new technology, doesn't want that new technology for themselves.
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quote:Second, white people have always had the attitude that people of other various skin colors were more or less servants or animals and even in the extremes, toys.
There are some that view the prime directive as evil, as well. Also, it's not just white people who feel that way.
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quote:Second, white people have always had the attitude that people of other various skin colors were more or less servants or animals and even in the extremes, toys. So, I don't know why they would have a problem with wizards treating muggles they way they have historically treated other races.
I don't know. Maybe I didn't study my "White People Secret Plans to Oppress Other Races" handbook enough in school.
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posted
Yea but I think that's a realistic portayal of what would happen in a wizarding society that had to keep themselves secret from muggles, don't you?
Where did I say I thought it was unrealistic? I said I didn't consider it to be morally "gray".
And do they HAVE to keep themselves secret? Or do they simply WANT to. In each book, it's become more clear a lot of what the Wizarding world does is because they like thinking themselves to be superior in varying degrees.
I don't recall Harry, Ron and Hermione being in a situation yet where they have to alter Muggle memories. It's always been done by Ministry officials. And all three have developed individual axes to grind with aspects of the way the Minstry's rules work.
Who's to say magic-users being a secret might not become one?
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posted
I think the point is that Muggles are not "of the race that knows Joseph", as Miss Cornelia would say.
I have no problem with it, and the potential for abuse of memory modification is pointed out several times.
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quote:So many problems with this. First, it is a basic premise (the prime directive, and face it, we do it with tribal cultures we are studying too) that there be non-interference in their natural development. Second, white people have always had the attitude that people of other various skin colors were more or less servants or animals and even in the extremes, toys. So, I don't know why they would have a problem with wizards treating muggles they way they have historically treated other races. And if Muggles found out about their abilities, they'd want the same abilities. That is a hoot. Cause I can't imagine the society that, when faced with new technology, doesn't want that new technology for themselves.
I like the story with certain qualifications because of certain elements in it. Period. Not because I'm unconsiously racist or want Rowling to re-write the story to my own personal liking.
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posted
not just that but also remember the witch burnings? If moogles knew about magicusers then there would be religious types and then the older power hungry rabble rouser types who'ld whip up the hatred and blame all their problems on them and next thing you know you'll read "Work brings freedom" somewhere again.
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quote:I think the point is that Muggles are not "of the race that knows Joseph", as Miss Cornelia would say.
You know, KQ, I have always thought you belonged to the race that knows Joseph (among others on Hatrack) but I never thought you'd know it. They're such a great group of people.
posted
According to the books, wizards and witches are in no real danger from Muggles-in one of the books, there is a story told of wizards and witches actually letting themselves be burned at the stake after applying magical protection, because it was funny and ticklish.
While there may be partial honorable reasons for raping the minds of Muggles with great regularity, the truth is that much of the magic-users in the game simply feel that Muggles are beneath them and either aren't ready or simply too stupid to understand what is really happening. You see that mentioned many, many times. Even the word 'Muggle' is derogatory.
That's not really a moral gray area, is it? Just like House Elves aren't really a moral gray area, nor is the treatment of giants and centaurs and the discrimination against 'muggle-born'. You see evidence of this within the book. The heroes are often concerned and opposed to the stereotypes and other normal practices of the normal.
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quote:Originally posted by Sid Meier: If moogles knew about magicusers
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't moogles magical creatures in themselves, in addition to having nothing to do with Harry Potter? Posts: 1357 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
It seems to me that the point of these morally gray areas, at least when they come up in the book is a very accurate portrayal of how real life is. Despite their magic and their whole culture that wizards and witches have created they are still subject to the same flaws as the rest of humanity.
Modifying someones memory, might be seen as necessary in some situations, and downright mean in others. As others have already pointed out, much of the Wizarding community sees themselves as being above muggles (in which case the comparison to racism is reasonable.)
On the other hand, even though there are some who avoid using this power to modify a memory it could be absolutely necessary. Refer to Dudley in the Fifth book and his encounter with the Dementors. As much as Dudley might deserve it, he would likely be psycologically damaged by such an encounter. Furthermore, Harry, the one person who might be able to say what sort of punishments Dudley does deserve, winds up saving him. *thinks for a moment* "Love thine enemy" if I am recalling my upbringing right.
But as long as the Pope doesn't try to enforce some sort of ban on these books, he is entitled to his opinion.
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quote:It seems to me that the point of these morally gray areas, at least when they come up in the book is a very accurate portrayal of how real life is. Despite their magic and their whole culture that wizards and witches have created they are still subject to the same flaws as the rest of humanity.
I agree. I think the problem is that when these things are done by "the good guys," with no discussion in the book, children (or adults for that matter) may not think through the moral ramifications. That's why the warning is about "subtle seduction." The gray areas aren't noticeable.
I tend to think this improves literature in general. But it's worth discussing.
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posted
That's what I like about her books. Books with the perfect good guys and the purely evil bad guys bore me. It's not realistic. In reality there are grey areas. There are people like Crouch who believe themselves good because they stick to strict rules until they end up alienating their family in the process and doing things that are as bad as the Dark Wizards. I would not like her as much if her stuff was strictly black and white.
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quote:Books with the perfect good guys and the purely evil bad guys bore me.
Exactly. That's why if Snape had been the villian in the first book, I probably would have quit the series then.
quote:I would not like her as much if her stuff was strictly black and white.
I don't think the potential problem is with the books but with the readers, people who think that if the good guys do it, it must be OK (except when something bad happens to them because of it). Her books have a lot more moral ambiguity than most children's books I can think of.
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