posted
This is not about the Middle East. I'll reveal the article that spawned this question in a little while. Anyone who thinks they know what I'm talking about, I'd prefer it if you didn't reveal it before I choose.
As a US citizen, how would you feel if the US Government allowed a foreign government's "secret service" to come to the US, interogate US citizens on US soil - and be able to do so in complete secrecy, with no right for suspects to "plead the 5th" and for suspect's property to be searched and siezed.
In addition to this, how would you feel if the foreign government was allowed to do this even if the suspect's actions were not a crime in the US, but in the foreign country?
In fairness I should also mention that for the sake of this outline, the equivalent of the Attorney General would have to ask for permission of the AG to actually do this on a case by case basis, but that the laws to allow this to happen have already been passed - hypothetically, that is.
Do you think that such a thing should be allowed, and why?
posted
indeed it would ruin the feeling of security in your chosen nation-state, and would ruin the ability of a nation to keep its own national security. Though being Canadian I'm not saying this as a US citizen but as a Canadian one and what I feel is right for my nation.
Posts: 1567 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Good to know you honour my request Puppy. Thanks for that.
Yes, I am indeed posting in regard to the above link .
quote:Treaty gives CIA powers over Irish citizens
By Dan Buckley US INVESTIGATORS, including CIA agents, will be allowed interrogate Irish citizens on Irish soil in total secrecy, under an agreement signed between Ireland and the US last week.
Suspects will also have to give testimony and allow property to be searched and seized even if what the suspect is accused of is not a crime in Ireland.
Under 'instruments of agreement' signed last week by Justice Minister Michael McDowell, Ireland and the US pledged mutual co-operation in the investigation of criminal activity. It is primarily designed to assist America's so-called 'war on terror' in the wake of the September 11 atrocities.
quote:Although the Department of Justice insists that the arrangement merely updates existing agreements, it goes much further. The US may ask Irish authorities:
To track down people in Ireland.
Transfer prisoners in Irish custody to the US.
Carry out searches and seize evidence on behalf of the US Government.
It also allows US authorities access to an Irish suspect's confidential bank information. The Irish authorities must keep all these activities secret if asked to do so by the US.
The person who will request co-operation is US Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, the man who, as White House counsel, instigated the notorious 'torture memo' to US President George W Bush which advised how far CIA agents could go in torturing prisoners. The person to whom the request is sent is the Minister for Justice.
posted
*sigh* If this is the way things are going to go (re: the Ireland issue), then the terrorists have already won. And you know, the thing that bothers me the most is not that US officials will be able to question people in Ireland, which is bad enough, goodness knows. It's the secrecy part of it. That's where police states start - when governments can do this sort of thing in secrecy and without being accoutable to anyone for their actions.
Posts: 2454 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Hate to ask a really dumb question, but why are the Irish tolerating such complete and utter disrespect for the Rule of Law???
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
One wonders what our government promised in return to make selling out their own people worth it.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
Maybe the US made Ireland an offer they couldn't refuse...
(sorry I watched part of the Godfather yesterday, all those massively overquoted lines finally had a source)
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I wonder what the IRA's view on this will be? Is it really a smart move to impinge on the rights of citizens from a country that has a known terrorist group devoted to Irish freedom?
Posts: 254 | Registered: Apr 2005
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To put my tinfoil hat for a moment, going to war in Iraq seemed a monumentally weird thing to do, from a War On Terror (tm) perspective, and in some circles could be thought to be a provocative act designed to increase terrorist activity, allowing our governments to introduce new police-state style laws for our 'protection'.
posted
Maybe the IRA is the reason Ireland is letting the US do this. Ireland has been fighting its own war terrorism for years, and may see the United States as a strong ally. Although I guess the IRA is doing more in Northern Ireland, which would be Britain's problem...
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Wow, lot of disinformation going on here. This is a standard criminal investigation cooperation agreement signed between the US and the EU. We give similar rights here to other countries.
Note how this was characterized in the initial post:
quote:and be able to do so in complete secrecy, with no right for suspects to "plead the 5th" and for suspect's property to be searched and siezed
Note that the article does not say targets of investigation will not have whatever the equivalent of the 4th and 5th amendment protections are in Ireland. In fact, the agreement specifically allows states to implement their own grounds for refusal. Here's the EU factsheet on it.
The full text might help put things in perspective.
From the PDF at the link above:
Each side can decide what offenses not crimes in the requested country can be exempted from assistance: p. 4
quote:Except when required by the laws of the Requested Party, assistance shall be provided without regard to whether the conduct that is the subject of the investigation, prosecution, or proceeding in the territory of the Requesting Party would constitute an offence under the laws of the Requested Party.
Either side can refuse assistance based on their own opinion. If civil protections are an "important public policy" then assistance will not be given that does not comply with Irish or US constitutional protections. P.5
quote:1. The Central Authority of the Requested Party may deny assistance if:
(a) the Requested Party is of the opinion that the request, if granted, would impair its sovereignty, security, or other essential interests, or would be contrary to important public policy;
The requests can only be fulfilled in accordance with the laws of the requested country (p.7):
quote:3. The method of execution specified in the request shall be followed except to the extent that it is incompatible with the laws and practices of the Requested Party.
On the same page, note that courts still provide the oversite for subpoenaes and warrants.
To answer the intitial question, the U.S. has given the exact same access to Ireland criminal investigators. It's a mutual agreement. If it were as you described it, I might be against it. As it is, I favor it, because it allows each country to implement whatever constitutional protections it wants.
And thank you Puppy for posting the link. Had you not done so, we'd still be discussing something fictional instead of actual, and we wouldn't know that the very premise of the thread is unfounded, since the U.S. has agreed to these very provisions.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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