posted
I live in Israel. Israel is about to get out of the Territories. The settlers aren't happy, and the fascists among them are trying to stop it so bad that three of them almost blew up a highway junction between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem back in April. The government is determined, and so are those from Gush Qattif and the four settlements in northern Samaria.
Everyone is fearing the 15th of August. I'd like to hear (read: read) your opinions about the whole issue. Police and army evacuating, religious zealots fighting to stay for theocra-fascist reasons, those who will only fight passively but go if required, people trying to break through to support those about to be taken away, the Palestinian terrorist-organisations wanting to take over, demographic changes (Arab population to exceed Jewish population in 20-30 years or so), strategic importance of the settlements, the besieging of Arab cities and villages, the pressure from the outside - and much more.
Days before the execution, I'd like to hear what you have to say. I believe that after 38 years Israel needs to pull out - but give the settlers an option:
1) Either the land is too important for you and you're willing to stay there for religious reasons and lose our support; or -
2) You're willing to compromise and return to Israel where we will give you new homes and new lands, and help you through the transition.
Forcing people out will only give a legitimate reason for fighting off, and certain reasoning for violence. If they didn't force them out, but given them an option - it would've left the government's hands clean and let each person decide on his or her own.
posted
The Israeli government created this mess by settling those disputed territories in the first place. It is encumbent upon them, now that the decision has been taken to pull out of those areas, to find some way to deal equitably with the settlers it helped put there. These people aren't squatters. They were there as part of a government-backed program.
So...to answer your question:
I don't think the option of letting them stay without government protection is viable -- it'd be a death sentence, basically, since I'm imagining that many of the ones who are fighting to remain are doing so because of their zeal for Israel, not their love of what is basically marginal land.
What I suggest is that the government build beautiful housing in nice areas and settle the people there.
I saw some absolutely wonderful settlements all over Israel. Then again, I saw some that were basically trailer parks. I think if the government is going to revise it's decades-long policies and uproot families, it needs to compensate them more than just "in kind." I mean, the people are no doubt attached to their old places, even if they weren't very nice. So, give them something better to move in to. The government is clearly capable of developing nice settlements. I've seen them. Just build some very nice ones somewhere that isn't disputed and move the people there. And if they don't want to go even then, you have to force them. If they try to cross the border back to their old homes, you have to stop them.
Israel is always complaining that the Palestinians can't control their own people. Well...this is a time for them to show what they are willing to do to THEIR own people in order to demonstrate a commitment to the peace process.
Sorry this sounds so harsh, but there are two things that really have bugged me about Israel in the past 20 or so years. One is the settlements and the growing of those settlements even while supposedly "engaging" the Palestianians in peace negotiations. The other is the constant refrain that somehow the Palestinian government should control the terrorists. Sure, there's good reason to have hated Arafat, but it's a little disengenuous to think that a group of people with no legal access to weapons could do a better job fighting terrorists than the Israeli army can.
The Palestinians have a LOT to answer for, IMHO, but these two aspects of Israel's tactics in dealing with the Palestinians always struck me as insane.
Overall, I say "good luck!"
The Israelis and Palestinians that I have met have all been wonderful people, each and every one of them seemed dedicated to their families and not at all interested in provoking the other side.
But...the governments. Among the worst-run I've ever encountered. That's not saying much, since I haven't traveled to Africa or the former Soviet Union, but I HAVE lived in NYC during the Dinkins years, and I've been to Central and South America.
Ah well... I hope for the best for the people there. May the governments see the value of common sense and caution.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
The whole story of Israel encouraging the settlers to go in to the conquered territories is a tough one. Settlements like Gush Etzion and Hebron were not encouraged to be settled by the government. A bunch of people went there and stayed there fore than the few days there were supposed to remain there (celebrating the Sedder in Hebron, for instance). They would not be removed and more people joined them until the Prime Minister (Levi Eshkol), who wanted to return those territories as a means of having peace with Jordan, just gave up because he got headaches from the issues in Hebron.
IIRC, during the 70s, minister Shim'on Peres went to some territories and complimented the settlers on their lovely building, and that he believed that if settlements had to be made - spread them all over the place. He did it as an individual.
The only thing the government did was oppress the Arabs and help the settlers oppress them. The government never actually encouraged settlements in the first place. At least not in the 60s and 70s.
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Ah, thanks for the clarification. That's not the version of events I heard, but, then, I was also relying on hearsay. I figured that the government must've encouraged it, however, or at least protected those folks with military power because how else could they have survived surrounded by people who supposedly want them dead?
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
There's a great book by Akiva Eldar (2004) which might have already been translated into English, the title should be "Masters of the Land" or "Lords of the Land"; it's about the past 38 years in the settlements, well analysed, giving many facts and much less speculation.
If it's in English it's worth reading.
The governement simply did nothing to stop the settlements. Thy didn't encourage them, but there was enough temptation that by the late 70s and 80s the slime of Israel (notably a bloke named Ariel Sharon) made sure it would be virtually impossible to get out of the territories. Ariel Sharon was "fighting the terror", when, in fact, all he really did after his glorious tactic in 1973 (cutting enemy supply lines) was screw up our invasion and occupation of Lebanon. He set up illegal settlements, and did it where it would block Palestinian transportation routes.
This act of trouble, putting the settlers in a problematic legal situation (because the territories were never politically annexed) eventually meant that Rabin was killed for trying to fix that situation. In 2003 a wall was built, which gave Israel a huge proportion of the Palestinian territories, that you don't really notice because it's territory from the margines of the territories. Sometimes even 17 KM deep.
The problem will be in the West Bank, where fighting will probably cause deaths. It almost happened in 1982 (Yammit, in Sinai), but this time we might not be so lucky getting an "almost".
Posts: 2978 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
First off, I am far from an expert on the Israel/Palestine situation. But I do think that if Israel is pulling out of the settlements, they need to bring all their people out. Leaving some settlers there "without support" is guarenteed to produce violence either by or against the settlers who choose to stay.
The land in question would become a Palestinian state after the withdrawel, correct? (assumption, not knowledge) So if some of the settlers want to stay they should be required to apply for Palestinian citizenship as part of the new state. I suspect most wouldn't want to, and probably wouldn't be accepted anyway, and at that point it should be the Israeli government's responsibility to relocate their own citizens. I also agree with what Bob said about providing them a new place to live within Israel proper.
posted
All I can say is, I'm so happy I left Israel before the actual disengagement happens. It will not be pretty.
I could say a lot more, but I'm tired, and I think we've managed to totally exhaust this subject in my house, so I can't bring myself to talk about it anymore.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
No... there's not much point to a landmark if I suddenly whip one up because I missed 6000. It has to mean something.
Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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