posted
Stumbled across an interesting article that got the ole' cogs rotating . . . particularly the part about the child "deserving to take delight in his/her accomplishments" without the perpetual praise of parents. Which is hard to fathom (for me) since praise was so rarely meted out in the environs I grew up in, that the anguish of striving so hard and never hearing a good word seems to clash with this idea . . . on the other hand, sparse praise and acknowledgement also seems to encourage folks to strive harder . . .
quote: 3. Stealing a child’s pleasure. Apart from the issue of dependence, a child deserves to take delight in her accomplishments, to feel pride in what she’s learned how to do. She also deserves to decide when to feel that way. Every time we say, "Good job!", though, we’re telling a child how to feel.
To be sure, there are times when our evaluations are appropriate and our guidance is necessary -- especially with toddlers and preschoolers. But a constant stream of value judgments is neither necessary nor useful for children’s development. Unfortunately, we may not have realized that "Good job!" is just as much an evaluation as "Bad job!" The most notable feature of a positive judgment isn’t that it’s positive, but that it’s a judgment. And people, including kids, don’t like being judged.
I cherish the occasions when my daughter manages to do something for the first time, or does something better than she’s ever done it before. But I try to resist the knee-jerk tendency to say, "Good job!" because I don’t want to dilute her joy. I want her to share her pleasure with me, not look to me for a verdict. I want her to exclaim, "I did it!" (which she often does) instead of asking me uncertainly, "Was that good?"
posted
I think that's a silly extreme, but I do think a constant stream of feel-good reinforcement is worse than useless. They way to build self-esteem is by accomplishing something. You can't be complimented into it with meaningless praise. However, real accomplishments (I say) should be praised. I would think that kids who aren't praised for their real accomplishments, far from taking joy in them for their own sake, come to feel unloved and ignored.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
As a mom with two kiddos, I'll add my two cents worth. I think we worry too much about this whole "self-esteem" thing to begin with. Most of us have enough good sense to know when it is time to praise our children and when to give them some sound criticism. A balanced measure of both insures that, yes, they know that they are loved and valued, and yes, there are things that they can and are expected to improve upon. If we focus only on their good qualities, when the world comes along and kicks their teeth in and says that they suck, they won't know how to deal with it. That doesn't mean that we should do that, but if they hear that they need improvement in some areas, this is not as likely to be a shock. "What do you mean I'm not the center of the universe and the meaning of all things terrific?" If things are handled in a balanced way, they won't have to think this.
That's just my thought...
Posts: 392 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I read a really good book, about the mental side of pool of all things, and it makes the best argument for and against these types of issues that I have ever seen.
He talks about how false confidence can be more hamful than almost anything when it comes to personal performance. True confidence comes not from constant praise regardless of if it is deserved or not, it comes from a realistic view of ones abilities and shortcomings. If we only praise the good things without critiquing the bad things then we raise our expectations to a false level, and when we fail to meet those unreasonable standards we have set for ourselves our confidence crumbles.
However, if we praise ourselves (and others) only when it is truely deserved then we form more realistic views of our abilities, and true confidence in our abilities.
Basically, praise well earned is farm more helpful for building true confiences than any sort of praise that is freely given regardless of true worth.
posted
I agree with Kwea. My daughter (age 11) and I were sort of talking about this in the car this afternoon. She'd much rather have the chance to compete and earn praise and recognition than just to be told that "everyone's a winner." She expressed that working toward the reward and "winning" because she did the best she could is a bigger boost for her than seeing everyone have rewards dispersed evenly (hopefully, I'm not being redundant).
So, obviously the book you read is on the right track.
posted
*chuckling* I get tired of the extremes, too, Ic.
I guess the cogs are rotating with the clash of what was received early on, what is practiced in the parenting realm (which I believe is fairly balanced) -
and wondering how to apply this in the work world . . . cause, unfortunately, in my efforts not to say what I "really" think and play the role I have been assigned correctly, I then catch myself offering way too many syrupy comments *insert "blech" and Mr. Yuck sticker*
Earning praise and building confidence - yep, yep, yep . . . and how to get out of the way so that those things can be done . . .
*off to work now - have a good day, folks*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Interesting, we just discussed this article on another forum I'm on last month. Many of the moms there believe in "non-coercive" parenting.
My thing about Alfie Kohn is I don't think he has a goos sense of balancing things in a real family. Most of my friends who advocate his and similar ideas had childhoods I could have only wished for, yet look for reasons to call them toxic. I don't call being not abused by imperfect people toxic (but I digress).
Anyhoo...I don't believe in physical punishment, ever, and I only use time outs for agressive or destructive offenses. I do admit to bribery, but then I accept bribes too. So if I don't spank, I try not to use time out, how, besides positive re-inforcement am I supposed to influence my childrens' behaviour and turn them into semi-civilised people?
quote: Manipulating children. Suppose you offer a verbal reward to reinforce the behavior of a two-year-old who eats without spilling, or a five-year-old who cleans up her art supplies. Who benefits from this? Is it possible that telling kids they’ve done a good job may have less to do with their emotional needs than with our convenience?
No, it has to do with re-inforcing the behaviours that make them civilised. I want my 3 year old to feel better about eating without spilling.
quote: but it’s very different from working with kids – for example, by engaging them in conversation about what makes a classroom (or family) function smoothly, or how other people are affected by what we have done -- or failed to do. The latter approach is not only more respectful but more likely to help kids become thoughtful people.
When your kid's career goal is to be a barbarian, this doesn't go far to making them easy to live with.
quote: What kids do need is unconditional support, love with no strings attached
There is a huge difference between unconditional love and unconditional acceptance of everything a child does- this article doesn't seem to make that distinction.
quote:If we’re praising positive actions as a way of discouraging misbehavior, this is unlikely to be effective for long. Even when it works, we can’t really say the child is now "behaving himself"; it would be more accurate to say the praise is behaving him
From my perspective, somtimes what matters is that it works. Sometimes what matters is that my kids do what I need them to do when I need them to do it, without me snapping at them.
I do think empty praise is useless. I praise my kids when I'm proud of them, I give them constructive critisism when warranted, and I express my disaproval when they act innapropriately. I think kids need that balance, not a robot reporting on what they see the kid doing without daring to impart the family's/society's values on their actions.
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posted
I haven't read the article, but what you're talking about, they talk about with Love and Logic as well. That when encouraging or praising, you stick to the facts and leave value judgements out. Like when a child does something you say "I noticed that you did X". Which sounds horrible written out, without facial expressions or tone, but experimenting with it, I've found that my kids at least really respond better to "I noticed..." than "Wow, what a fantastic job you did there!"
I'm guessing that it has more to do with attaching love to behavior, in a subtle way saying "You get my approval when you do X", whereas "I noticed..." simply states fact and the child can reinforce his own feelings about it. I don't know. Maybe it's the thought that you're not being judged, but observed. Being observed can be a lot more positive when you know that there is no judgement, simply acceptance for who you are.
That said, even with the positive experience I've had with "I noticed..." I rarely remember to use it, and mostly love up my kids when they do something I appreciate. So far they seem to do okay. I think perhaps the best time to use "I noticed..." is when the child is down on himself about something. Instead of trying self esteem building statements, just quietly saying "I noticed..." about the successes that contradict what the child is down on himself about might be more helpful. Dunno. It comes up often enough with my soon to be 13 year old (hormones!) that I could try it next time. Mostly with him, being quiet and present is enough to get him through whatever is downing him out. (all of which is written thinking out loud....)
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I think L&L presents their approach more neutrally, whereaas this A. Kohn article seems to be rather negative.
It IS important to objectively notice and comment on behaviors, and to not attach the perpetual "valuing"; but also recognizing that families do these sorts of socializations in many different ways and that's okay (JI Clarke-ish idea); but the messages also need to consistently express a family/society value as well - that was probably jumbled - sorry - precoffee.
In terms of present day activity, I tend to say firmly (not meanly) what the expectation is; ie., chores include putting the clean dishes away and feeding the cat. I "notice" when they're done and say thank you (I like to be thanked), and I notice when they're not done and my firmness meter notch goes up for a reminder (Have you checked your chore list? Dinner will be ready in 10 minutes, but yours will be cold if you're still doing them when I set them on the table . . . )
*wanders off for coffee*
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posted
It makes sense, Shan. As far as drawings, Lego things,projects etc the observations seem more in line, but there are actions I judge in line with our family's values or rules, and it seems wrong to attatch no value. I value non-violence, so I 'm not going to stand there and say, "I see you just hit your sister", KWIM? Or I value people at my table using utensils, so I do place avlue jundgement on it.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
I hadn't thought to use "I notice..." in situations where I disapprove. I'll have to try that. "I notice that you just bit your brother." (real world situation for me as I can't get my daughter to stop biting...it's not even really biting anymore, she just opens her mouth and puts her teeth on him, but doesn't bite down. Even so, teeth are for FOOD, not brothers or friends.) "Teeth are for food. I don't like to be around people who use their teeth for anything other than food, so please go to your room until I call you."
I'll have to try that next time and see how it works.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I don't think sincere praise will interfere with a child's self-esteem! Or that it will make the child narcissistic -- I know a little about this, unfortunately, and I don't think narcissism comes from thinking you're too great, but covering up a suspicion of being too awful.
Anway, next time the little piano virtuoso (say) gets caught hitting his little sister, he'll know he's not perfect.
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I do note that I am more willing to offer negative feedback to my son than I am to erring adults in my life . . . which bothers me.
Maybe I'm just recognizing that most adults don't seem to respond well to constructive criticism or challenge of pet theories and ideas and acting accordingly . . . but I must say, folks sure get quiet when I don't oooh and ahhh first and then ask apologetically if they'll be able fix one or two things - Maybe I'm just around people that this A. Kohn article is referring to - you know - the fall out as adults - Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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So if I don't spank, I try not to use time out, how, besides positive re-inforcement am I supposed to influence my childrens' behaviour and turn them into semi-civilised people?![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
