What an ill wind blows through the land where we are tacit acomplices in allowing liars to tear at the belly of our strength. Will you sit and do nothing while those who decieved you remain unpunished, while they reap rewards for their lies?
If you do you are the weakness that leads to the fall. You may even live to see that all you have came from courage and honor that you forgot how to keep, and so lost...
quote:Let's try that again: The cavalry wasn't late. It didn't arrive on Thursday smoking a cigar and cussing. It was there all along.
And it stole SUVs from car dealerships! And commandeered humvees! ...
At any rate...my feelings on this are mixed. On one hand, no, some of the aspects the media focused on weren't nearly as bad as they claimed. None of us appreciate being painted as savages. I guess my point is this: yes, New Orleans is a very unique city, and yes, that is very important, but at the same time, a lot of the statements of people who were urging others to help out seemed to separate the city from the rest of the nation.
On the other hand, no, everything was not all hunky-dory. There were a lot of things that were mishandled at MANY levels.
Also, I really hate this kind of crap:
quote:"We had a major city destroyed,"
It's not destroyed. It WASN'T destroyed. It annoys me to no end that so many people seem to believe that New Orleans was completely wiped off the face of the map. I have friends who still ask me how I can stand to live here, blah blah, isn't it just totally gone? The NINTH WARD is kind of gone, but there is much more to the city than the Ninth Ward.
You have no idea how pleased I was today to run across a European couple who needed directions while I was walking to school today. And they weren't taking those ridiculous disaster bus tours, either. They wanted to see the park and the zoo.
posted
Well I once had a car that looked fine to me that the Insurance Company totaled so destroyed can be a relative term.
Personally I see the levies of New Orleans as a local matter not a national one and cannot for the life of me understand why federal funds should build them. It might be good for the economy locally and it will give lots of hard working guys jobs in the short haul but how the heck is it the Federal Governments job to patiently tell people that if they want live under the level of the nice nearby ocean they need very good walls to do it,
"Here little fellow is a hundred million to fix it up with..."
Being short sighted and stupid is not something that can be blamed on any Bush since people have been that way since the Burning One.
What the article shows is that the media went in with a very clear agenda and purpose and ignored facts within hundreds of feet of them to carry it out. They could have shown Heroes as the men that they were but America was denied her heroes and instead had to look at her leaders being made out to be villains.
Reality of Heroism was mocked and denied to show a fantasy of indifference. Who runs the media, Al Quadia?
We support our military? Lets not be ridiculous, we ignore our militaries achievements because they might make the government look good.
quote:Personally I see the levies of New Orleans as a local matter not a national one and cannot for the life of me understand why federal funds should build them. It might be good for the economy locally and it will give lots of hard working guys jobs in the short haul but how the heck is it the Federal Governments job to patiently tell people that if they want live under the level of the nice nearby ocean they need very good walls to do it,
Maybe because the nation as a whole does need a port at the mouth of the Mississippi.
posted
A value that is easily calculated and should pay for itself, add a 'Levie' Duty to goods passing in and out of the Port like a toll way and put the proceeds into a Build a Decent Dyke fund and there it is. No need to tax Oregon for it or Alaska or Nebraska.
Let the city barrow federal funds against the promised returns on this Duty and go to work under a local Bond/Federal Matching structure.
posted
You know, last I checked, there was not an ADDITIONAL tax levied on people in order to give New Orleans money for levees.
On top of that, I resent the attitude that New Orleans residents got what they had coming for living in a city that's below sea level. There are plenty of other areas that have been hit by hurricanes much more often, and I don't hear you blaming the people there.
quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: Blame? No. Empathy? Yes.
Does what happen come as a big surprise? Shouldn't.
I remind you that New Orleans is not a particularly hurricane-prone area, in comparison to...say...Florida.
On top of that, we were told that the levees were just fine. But I don't think any of us were SURPRISED at what happened with the weather so much as...the attitude of some of the American public.
posted
pH, can you confirm the rumour that they're planning on changing the name of the city to Lake Orleans?
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posted
pH, I meant the weather. I was ticked at the response, too. The "haha God punished you" people made me weep.
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quote:Originally posted by Swampjedi: pH, I meant the weather. I was ticked at the response, too. The "haha God punished you" people made me weep.
Oh, yeah. And schoolkids being picked on in their new schools. I mean, we were treated pretty badly by some of our college classmates in Chicago...who are supposedly a bit more grown-up than middle-schoolers. I felt so bad for them. I seem to recall there being some sort of Houston vs. New Orleans fight at a Texas middle school.
No one does that (or if they do, not on nearly as wide a scale) when a hurricane hits Florida.
posted
BC, it's a silly argument to say that NO should pay for their own seawalls when so many other places around the nation get federal funds for purely local matters.
Why are taxes in Michigan paying for those giant damned bridges in Alaska that service only what? 15,000 people? To the tune of several hundred million dollars? Why do federal tax dollars pay for flood insurance to people who live in flood prone areas? I live in a state that on the whole doesn't have natural disasters. Except for a flooded basement here and there, we don't have floods, don't have a lot of tornadoes, and when we do they rarely cause severe damage. No hurricanes or earthquakes etc etc. Just winter storm damage, which we pay for ourselves.
I don't have a problem with my tax dollars going to help rebuild or build new defenses against hurricans in NO. I think they should be more environmentally aware, and should plan for the worst case scenario, but that port and that city, is vital to the entire nation, not just the local area.
Unlike say, a trailer park in Iowa, or those bridges in Alaska, or any of a hundred other local issues that get federal dollars. If they get them without complaint, NO certainly has a right to them.
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posted
Don't get me started about Federal Money bailing out insurance company stock holders for flooding in St Louis or wherever, but the transportation network has a Military purpose so it is a Federal matter.
I feel for the people of New Orleans about as much as I feel for the people playing the odds on the San Andreas or living on top of abandoned coal mines, it is a shame that bad things happen to these people but they do share in the blame for their own folly.
As for the city saying the Levies were safe, well that depends on who you were listening too doesnt it? There are many bright fellows on record predicting exactly what happened.
If the project is too big the local government can and should appeal to the federal for whatever help it can get, but please, billions of dollars flow through New Orleans, to say the cost was prohibitive was to simply take the position that dealing with it after a break made it necessary was politically cheaper, i.e. the inevitable loss of life was cheaper then the possible loss of personal position. Typical bureaucratic sloth, the biggest evil in our society, it makes politicians put off till after the disaster what they should have taken care of long before.
quote:I feel for the people of New Orleans about as much as I feel for the people playing the odds on the San Andreas or living on top of abandoned coal mines, it is a shame that bad things happen to these people but they do share in the blame for their own folly.
Nobody blamed the tsunami victims. Nobody blames people when earthquakes strike. And I don't think you fully realize the reason why many people are living in New Orleans. We have a significant homestead exemption, which means that poor families (of which there are many) don't have to pay property taxes on their homes. Said homes are often passed down in families. Families live here for generations upon generations. Many can't afford and don't want to leave.
Of course, I have no such excuse. I officially own property here as of a month and a half ago. And trust me, I don't live on top of an abandoned coal mine.
posted
It is the same everywhere, it takes something out of one to leave, but again there is a man made compontent to this situation that an Earthquake lacks. If Holland were suddenly flooded because they had built a faulty seawall would we blame it on nature or the unnatural act of living below sea level next to the sea? This was a falure not of FEMA but of engineering, the Ocean was always gonna do what it did and does do.
posted
I don't think you understand me. It doesn't just take "something" out of them. These families don't own cars. They're poor. Our housing exemption is in the neighborhood of $75,000, and these people's houses were valued under that.
On top of that, you clearly have never lived in New Orleans. It's not a place one can easily leave...and I've only lived here for three years.
And no, we would say that Holland should have built better seawalls....but Holland is a COUNTRY. New Orleans is not. On top of that, we wouldn't blame the people of Holland for living there. That attitude, quite frankly, makes me absolutely sick.
posted
I do, they pump water out to sea constantly so they can have more land, if the pumps fail...
I have been to NO, I found it very easy to leave, it is too far south for my taste. If they do not own cars they seem to have very little to lose in just walking away, and in fact I have read that many choose not to return now that they are in more prosperous cities elsewhere. If they can make it work arriving with the clothes on their back I think they could have made it work with what cash they could get for what they had before.
It is as always a question of will and of knowledge. Heinlein wrote that every move into the unknown sorted the people by will and intelligence because those that lack either stay behind or fail.
This is not me being ruthless it is the nature of the universe.
quote:I have been to NO, I found it very easy to leave, it is too far south for my taste. If they do nto own cars they seem to have very little to lose in just walking away,
BEEN TO and LIVED IN are two entirely different things. Who are you to decide where people should and shouldn't live? Who are you to decide who does and does not deserve aid? Just because YOU don't love the city doesn't mean there aren't millions of people around the globe who do. And if you're not into Southern culture, why not just advocate that no one live on the Gulf Coast at all? Or hey, let's bash on those morons in California, where they have earthquakes! Or the midwest! Tornados are inevitable, too! Let's blame the tsunami people!
quote: every move into the unknown sorted the people by will and intellegence because those that lack either stay behind or fail.
You call it a lack of intelligence. I call it a sweet real estate investment by someone who doesn't want to turn this city into the Southern Las Vegas.
posted
Bean Counter, darling, you must forgive us if we don't absolutely take seriously an argument regarding New Orleans in which the arguer spells levee levie. Three Es. Not all in a row.
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quote:Who are you to decide where people should and shouldn't live? Who are you to decide who does and does not deserve aid?
Well, as a citizen of the country, it's his right and duty to express his opinion as to who deserves aid, and, if the choice of living location factors into the need for aid, then it's his right and duty to express his opinion on that, as well.
That's not "deciding."
quote:Bean Counter, darling, you must forgive us if we don't absolutely take seriously an argument regarding New Orleans in which the arguer spells levee levie. Three Es. Not all in a row.
With so many different holes in his argument crying out for refutation, you take the low road to attack his spelling?
quote:What an ill wind blows through the land where we are tacit acomplices in allowing liars to tear at the belly of our strength. Will you sit and do nothing while those who decieved you remain unpunished, while they reap rewards for their lies?
If you do you are the weakness that leads to the fall.
See, this is why you are an utterly ineffective advocate. You have an issue where you probably have a credible way to point out the bias in the coverage, and you decide to squander it by calling names instead of making rational points.
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posted
Dear Bean Counter, As I eat my delicious litchi, I feel the need to reply, as I've not posted in quite some time. The only thing I have to say, is that no matter where you live in this earth, you will always be vulnerable to some kind of natural disaster. It's inevitable. I don't see how you can say that its a people's fault for living in a disaster prone area. Forgive me for living in this dying planet where lightning can strike me down any day.
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posted
Disaster prone is one thing, as I have already stated, the human component in this is what humans should be held responsible for. The Levees are man made are they not? Did nature form them over millions of years just to protect Bourbon Street or were they built by men? I have seen three tornadoes and could not be paid to live in a or near a trailer park, but I also do not go to high ground with a golf club when there is lightning. As with Yellowstone there are laws of Physics at work that cannot be argued with but that can be understood.
I feel for the elderly who perished, for those struck down by the flood, but the blame rests on those who had the information for decades on what would happen and considered it a risk they could live with. It clearly does not fall on those who dealt with the inevitable aftermath so skillfully and with such dedication.
posted
Do you live in an inpenetrable bubble? If not, I hope you don't expect people to feel sorry for you if you get sick or a tree falls on you or a meteor drops out of the sky and lands on your house. Because that would be like saying that it's NOT your fault.
And New Orleans is far, far more than Bourbon St. If you spent all your time in New Orleans on Bourbon, you need to reevaluate your priorities in life.
posted
Do you live in an inpenetrable bubble? If not, I hope you don't expect people to feel sorry for you if you get sick or a tree falls on you or a meteor drops out of the sky and lands on your house. Because that would be like saying that it's NOT your fault.
And New Orleans is far, far more than Bourbon St. If you spent all your time in New Orleans on Bourbon, you need to re-evaluate your priorities in life.
posted
If a guy in an SUV decides that he can make it through that three feet of water running across the road and he ends up dead for it is it not half tragedy and half stupidity? It is sad for his family and for us all at his loss, but have we not all heard enough stories about what happens to think he acted foolishly?
You refuse to acknowledge that the people of New Orleans were for the most part rescued from their own folly and should thank the God's and Guard for their deliverance, and then go forth and sin no more...
If you will not accept responsibility you cannot change what you were doing wrong in the first place, so go ahead, build the Levees just as they were, I am sure it will never happen again... at least not while you are alive to see it.
posted
If a guy in an SUV decides that he can make it through that three feet of water running across the road and he ends up dead for it is it not half tragedy and half stupidity? It is sad for his family and for us all at his loss, but have we not all heard enough stories about what happens to think he acted foolishly?
You refuse to acknowledge that the people of New Orleans were for the most part rescued from their own folly and should thank the God's and Guard for their deliverance, and then go forth and sin no more...
If you will not accept responsibility you cannot change what you were doing wrong in the first place, so go ahead, build the Levees just as they were, I am sure it will never happen again... at least not while you are alive to see it.
quote:Originally posted by Bean Counter: As for not leaving Bourbon Street, I was told that doing so risked being beaten, robbed and raped, and that was by the police...
BC
Uh...the cops do that, especially if they find out you're from out-of-town. Locals usually spend much more time in the French Quarter. All you really have to do is avoid Frenchman Street if you're by yourself and stay out of the Ninth Ward. I mean, it's a city. All cities are dangerous. If all you did was hang out on Bourbon Street, that's probably why you didn't like visiting New Orleans. Bourbon Street should only be taken in small doses. Bourbon Street is where stupid tourists go to act like complete assholes because for some reason, they think that our laws are merely guidelines.
And they definitely aren't rebuilding the levees just as they were.
You still didn't answer my question. Do you expect people to feel sorry for you if a tree falls on your house?
posted
Of course not! I would not even expect people to feel sorry for me if I had been shot in Iraq, it is a question of managing risk. If I have a tall tree leaning over my house, a thing that has been the case before, I hitch a tractor to it and cut it down. If a tornado throws a tree through my barn, a thing that has happened once, I cut it up while drinking beer and roasting brats with friends, then a team of Amish fellows fix it in three hours with hand tools...
quote: It's not a place one can easily leave...and I've only lived here for three years.
Speak for yourself only, pH. I lived there for three years and found it not only easy to leave but I celebrated the day I put that place in my rear view mirror.
Not everyone who lives in New Orleans falls in love with it, a lot of people would prefer not to raise families there.
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quote: It's not a place one can easily leave...and I've only lived here for three years.
Speak for yourself only, pH. I lived there for three years and found it not only easy to leave but I celebrated the day I put that place in my rear view mirror.
Not everyone who lives in New Orleans falls in love with it, a lot of people would prefer not to raise families there.
There is a huge difference between deciding to leave a city and declaring that everyone who stays there is a moron who got what he had coming.
posted
I never said anyone who stayed was a moron who deserved what they got, I was only responding to the comment of yours that I quoted.
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quote:Originally posted by pH: You know, last I checked, there was not an ADDITIONAL tax levied on people in order to give New Orleans money for levees.
On top of that, I resent the attitude that New Orleans residents got what they had coming for living in a city that's below sea level. There are plenty of other areas that have been hit by hurricanes much more often, and I don't hear you blaming the people there.
-pH
This kind of reminds of how angry I was when Swartzenegger decided that San Franciscans should pay the whole cost of a new bridge into the city, and the toll hike we already suffered (5$) should be spent on other state projects. How retarded can you get? San Franciscans paying more for the tolls, and then all that money being distributed to non-related projects, while the locals then have to either suffer a 10$ toll at the Golden Gate, or pay more in taxes.
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I seem to recall there being some sort of Houston vs. New Orleans fight at a Texas middle school.
