posted
To be fair, it's not all Bush's fault. Demand for oil is growing at a very fast pace throughout the world, especially in developing countries like China. Basic economics says that if demand increases and supply stays the same, the price will rise. The demand curve is certainly scooting to the right, currently.
Bush seems to be trying to counter this by trying to shove the supply curve to the right as well... i.e. drilling in Alaska. In my eyes, that's a fool's game, because we're dealing with a good that most certainly has a limited supply. We need to decrease demand.
So, while the problem is not entirely Bush's fault (or even most, I would say), he's not helping us find a long-term viable solution.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yeah, gas prices are going up and what makes you think they would be any lower if Kerry was elected? Besides haven't you told us a thousand times that we fought that war in Iraq for the oil?
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
From what I had heard for the last five or six years from my father and others employed in that industry, the gas price should have been much higher than it was back in 2000. Now we might be slightly higher than we should be, but we are closer to what it's supposed to be. Or at least that is what I hear. Of course, I don't complain about gas prices myself. I drive sparingly and use a very fuel efficient car.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't know why I bother. Its not like he actually makes legitimate arguments or engages in real discussion or debate. When are people like him going to realize that acting in this manner is a real turnoff to those that are neutral or moderate? When am I going to give up trying to help people like him be more effective at convincing people especially when they're the opposition?
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Yes, remember when President Bush tried to get an energy bill passed when he first got in office because he foresaw this. Gee….. go figure. So we should blame Bush since he tried to do something about it but liberals blocked him. Ok. Sounds reasonable.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: From what I had heard for the last five or six years from my father and others employed in that industry, the gas price should have been much higher than it was back in 2000.
I'm sure to people in that particular industry, the gas price is never high enough. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
What gets me is that the price of oil is (allegedly) coming down, but the price of gas is still rising. Sure, maybe we're waiting for the effect to trickle down, but then why is it that as soon as an oil increase is announced, the gas prices surge? To me, this feels like price gouging, and it also needs to be stopped.
Today's price at my same gas station that I've been posting about throughout the Gas Prices Near You thread - 2.83. Yesterday's price - 2.74. When the thread bumped, I believe it was at 2.45 or so.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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"So we should blame Bush since he tried to do something about it but liberals blocked him. Ok. Sounds reasonable."
I think the argument the liberal used was that Bush's energy bill would not have worked. If thats the case then i dont fault them for opposing the bill. Ive looked at the energy bill he tried to pass and I looked at the one that passed and I dont think either would have worked. And I dont think that you can say "well we should have given it a chance" because of one reason. What would happen to a doctor who gave randomn medication to a patient to try and help them, even though they did not know what was wrong with that patient. In essence, they were just throwing medications at the patient. He would be blamed and possibly fired. He would, at the least, face a considerable amount of criticism. One other thing, Bush has had a republican congress and senate and has failed to do anything about rising gas prices. Thus, I dont fault anyone who is angry that a man, who has recieved contributions from many oil companies, has failed to help lower prices which hurt them and help oil companies. It certainly looks like a conflict of interest, whether or not it is. It is, of course, the old political quandry, the battle between what something is and what it looks like. Until Bush overcomes the latter objection, the critiques he faces about rising oil prices are valid and the blame is wholly his.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote: From what I had heard for the last five or six years from my father and others employed in that industry, the gas price should have been much higher than it was back in 2000.
I'm sure to people in that particular industry, the gas price is never high enough.
I'll take the smilie face to mean you didn't mean any harm or anything, but I'd still like to bring up a point. The people I am referring to (my father and the others) aren't the people who would be profitting from the high gas prices. In fact, they are the ones complaining because they are getting overlooked and underpaid for what they are doing. So any money from higher prices wouldn't be going in their direction.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Maybe if gas prices keep going up the public will get annoyed enough to actually start supporting alternative forms of energy. But maybe I'm just dreaming.
Posts: 2867 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Maybe if gas prices keep going up the public will get annoyed enough to actually start supporting alternative forms of energy. But maybe I'm just dreaming.
Ideally, yes. That's how the free market works, anyway. A high price, or perceived high price that is sustained for long enough will cause a majority of people to look elsewhere or demand that an alternative be provided.
Altnernative energy sources won't work practically until a majority of people want them AND want to use them. Right now, a majority of the market doesn't want to move away from oil and gasoline because those are still the easiest and cheapest relative to other souces.
Alternative sources won't be used until there is a big regular demand. I don't mean the environmental desire to use them now. I mean when alternatives become as practical and as cheap as oil. That won't happen until there is a large enough demand to justify such a general mass supply. Until then alternatives will be essentially a niche market, even though many are quite large now.
I know that it seems that I have introduced a paradox here. We won't get the demand until there is a supply, and we won't get the supply until there is a demand. But the market almost always works to satisfy a demand. People have wanted alternatives for years. Oil companies are finally getting to that. Governments are attempting to fund research, and do other things that governments love to do to keep getting elected or stay in power. But I digress.
I really don't see any of this happening for a while. Despite our "shrinking supplies", there is plenty of crude oil to satisfy the world market for a while. This is tragic, really because use of crude oil really is damaging to Earth. The degree is debatable, and I won't attempt that here for fear of my head.
My point is, alternatives won't be practical until we really, really want them for everyday use.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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posted
Get a Prius. Awesome cars. I rented one (don't have the $ to buy one yet) and drove from Salt Lake to Provo and back and didn't even use a gallon of gas. Show those gas companies what we think of oil and gas! Or better yet, move so you can take a bike or bus to work and don't even drive.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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quote:Well I am wondering why our Most Esteemed & Generous President George W. Bush did not put on the Energy bill any thing to lower demand for oil.
Did someone actually make that statement? Seriously?
Yes I agree President Bush should have made part of the American bill the requirement for China (only ONE of the countries to have consumption/demand raise at unheard of levels the last few years due to their very small population of course) to lower it's consumption and also include in the bill a clause requiring all other countries we import from to build NEW factories (at their expense of course) and to have them online within 6 months. Oh yes, he should also be pumping that Iraqi oil to the US instead of to it's neighbors. How dare they, it's not theirs, it's our oil. Liberators? Hhahahaha suckers! We just want your oil!
Oh and he should have warned the world that if they don't follow the demands of our American bill and lower their consumption that we're going to cut off our regulated opium supply from Afghanistan, except to our heroin hippies here in the US, you'll still get your fix CHUM! AHHhhhhh that's better.
Now back to reality. There's not any less oil flowing into the market due to ANYTHING President Bush has done besides the oil consumed during War (beginning with Afghanistan which is where all our Iraqi boys would be if they weren't in Iraq, just to kill that argument before someone attempts it), which the largest part was used during the initial invasion and everthing since then is of course slightly higher.
I think the blame for prices at home are spread pretty evenly over everyone and every party.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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A guy at my work drives one. Good idea, but it only delays the inevitable. Switching from fossil fuels.
I'm a hardline when it comes to Gas. If I was pres. I'd make a law requiring all consumer cars to be hybrids in 5 years, all commercial vehicles in 10 years and all automobiles to be fossil fuel free by 20 years.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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I don't think that plan is realistic enough time-wise, CStroman. I mean I agree with you that there needs to be a shift, but it's going to have to be gradual.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I don't think you have to mandate that cars be hybrids, but if you mandated increasingly tougher fuel efficiency standards, car companies would be forced to turn to hybrid or alternative fuel technology in order to comply.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I find it tough to feel bad for Americans about this when they still enjoy some of, if not the lowest oil prices in the world.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by CStroman: If I was pres. I'd make a law requiring all consumer cars to be hybrids in 5 years, all commercial vehicles in 10 years and all automobiles to be fossil fuel free by 20 years.
I agree. But something like that could never happen. Too much money to be made by too many powerful people by keeping things just like they are.
And are consumers really upset by the prices? How many people have changed their behavior? (other than to complain more) How many trucks and RV's drive out every weekend towing boats, dirt bikes, or 4 wheelers? I like to have fun too, but it comes at a price and we are all putting it on our "Terra" debit cards and we don't have the money to pay it off.
I think eventually the gas will simply run out and it will all hit the fan and life as we know it will radically change. There wont be any 5 years to get ready. People wont be able to get to their jobs and will have to move so they can take alternative (electric) transporation, walk, bike, they will have to take jobs near their homes, or work at home. Mom and pop corner stores will make a comeback... and freeway fatalities will fall and road rage will vanish, and everyone will quit being so busy because they have 2 extra hours in the day that they use to spend driving, and we will be happy people again. Hahaha. Not likely, but it is fun to write.
Oh, I'm not an environmentalist. But I drive as little as I can, I ride my bike to work when I can, and work is only 4 miles away, so I am lucky enough to say I can ride. And when I buy my next car, it will be a hybrid.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Bob - there are actually a number of countries that get much better gas prices than we do.
As of March of 2005 (yes, I know it's outdated...), assuming a car that gets 35 miles/gallon, $20 of gas would let you travel:
Germany: 127 miles
Japan: 147 miles
United States: 342 miles
China: 385 miles
Saudi Arabia: 771 miles
Venezuela: 4,624 miles
That's from the March/April issue of Foreign Policy, courtesy of marginalrevolution.com.
Now, even if US gas prices have been skyrocketing relative to other countries since March(which is probably not true - I'd assume most other countries are also seeing the price rise as demand increases), I really doubt that we've got as cheap as gas as in Venezuela. I'd be willing to bet that gas is cheaper in China still, as well. This isn't the full list, clearly, but there are probably a good number of countries between the US and Venezuela, in terms of gas price.
Edit: I'd have to disagree that the s*** is very suddenly going to hit the fan, if only because different oil supplies will run out at different times. Supply will slowly decrease, prices will rise, and people will start making life-style changes before all the oil is gone.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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It's not his fault, the current situation is do to a million factors that date back to the beginning of civilization.
What Bush is responsible for is the fact that he sold America that he was the Best Man in America for the Job, Leadership, and Power of The President of the United States of America.
What Bush is responsible for is all of the actions and ideas and ideals he has sold or given or forced on this nation and the world from 2000 to 2005.
quote: Demand for oil is growing at a very fast pace throughout the world
Also true. The Demand grows greater as the Supply lessens. Oil is a finite resource. it will eventually run out.
We knew this in the 70's when Jimmy Carter was struck down by the Oil crisis.
The America Government should have turned it's energies to finding the best solution, and from now on, every second they do not do EVERYTHING they can to find the best solution possible, is a crime against humanity.
quote: We need to decrease demand.
We must decrease demand and come up with great new technologies.
Bush is a lousy leader for selling that he has a GREAT PLAN, and THE BEST PLAN, when the plan he and "his people" have is blindly foolish at best and very evil at worst.
Bush and "his people" have profited GREATLY from the Energy Crisis. They have profited more from oil and energy with wealth and power than 99.9% of all living beings.
Enron? HELLO!
MUTHER FREAKING ENRON
Enron BANKROLLED George W. Bush's run as a National American Politican. True.
Halliburton? HELLO!
MUTHER FREAKING HALLIBURTON
Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, and still owns $440,000 shares of Halliburton stock.
Exxon Mobil was the #2 election bankroller in his 2004 campaign.
Jesus says, "You cannot serve two masters."
You REALLY think Bush believes he is putting forth the BEST energy plan possible for America and the world's next 100 years???
Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, Rove Incorporated's energy plan makes them and their party wealthy and powerful, and it sucks for us lowering our quality of life.
quote: he's not helping us find a long-term viable solution.
Agreed.
quote: Yeah, gas prices are going up and what makes you think they would be any lower if Kerry was elected?
Kerry was a piss-poor choice for President. He would have been highly ineffective as president. Kerry and Bush representing both sides of America is a sad reflection upon the last generation's cream of the crop.
We should have better leaders than these men. My heart tells me that Al Gore would have been a better modern president than George Bush #1 or 2, or Jimmy Carter, or Bill Clinton. Al Gore is a cool, smart, kind American. And he FOR SURE would have had a much better energy plan that George W. Bush, who's Vice President LAUGHED at conservation.
Al Gore would have been a great innovator and cheerleader for the push for greater, newer, cleaner source of energy.
quote: Besides haven't you told us a thousand times that we fought that war in Iraq for the oil?
I have stated many times that I do believe the Iraqi War had more to do with Oil than Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the Facts back me up considering we found ZERO weapons of Mass Destrution and we now control their oil until further notice.
I think the war in Iraq is being faught for many, many reasons, one of the main reasons being an American Stronghold/Base in the middle east.
Bush controls Babylon.
He admits he loves power.
Is he the Great Maitreya?
Does he deserve the power to control Babylon?
quote: I don't know why I bother.
Because you care about America, Our future, and you feel strongly about your beliefs.
quote:Its not like he actually makes legitimate arguments or engages in real discussion or debate.
Many many many times when I actually pour my heart into a Hatrackian Thread, the issue i would like to discuss gets totally derailed. So I try to keep my heartfelt attempts at good discussion about passionate important American issues up as much as possible, and many days it is hard to get so inspired.
quote:Its not like he actually makes legitimate arguments or engages in real discussion or debate.
Bush Incorporated's Energy plan sucks shit.
That's my agruement.
Their Energy Plan makes them Wealthy and Powerful and worsens our future by offering us no real plan at all. They fill their coffers and the situation gets worse. They enjoy the power it give them.
That's my arguement.
quote: When are people like him going to realize that acting in this manner is a real turnoff to those that are neutral or moderate?
I can only speak what I believe. I cannot worry about turning on or off people.
If stating the Truth turns people off or makes them run away, so be it.
quote: When am I going to give up trying to help people like him be more effective at convincing people especially when they're the opposition?
quote:especially when they're the opposition?
That is why you fail.
We are both Sons of God.
We are brothers.
quote:Yes, remember when President Bush tried to get an energy bill passed when he first got in office because he foresaw this. Gee….. go figure. So we should blame Bush since he tried to do something about it but liberals blocked him. Ok. Sounds reasonable.
"tried to get an energy bill passed"
And what fantastic ideas were in this bill that were not passed? What radical ideas about the future of Energy was not allowed to be born? What great gem was lost?
Bush just got an energy plan passed. It is heavy in Government Taxpayer Handouts straight to Oil and Energy companies, and it's filled with Political human Pork.
quote: To me, this feels like price gouging, and it also needs to be stopped.
Exactly. It is price gouging. And it isn't price gouging on Diamonds, or Baseball Tickets, or Chocolate or some luxury we can "live without. It's price gouging us on something 99% of American NEED in the current living era, something that Americans PAY just to get to WORK.
that's criminal.
and it sure ain't Christian or family values.
quote:Thus, I dont fault anyone who is angry that a man, who has recieved contributions from many oil companies, has failed to help lower prices which hurt them and help oil companies.
I agree. Well put.
quote: Maybe if gas prices keep going up the public will get annoyed enough to actually start supporting alternative forms of energy.
We HAVE to set our minds hearts and souls to finding new energies. When you find out you have cancer, how soon should you start to fight it?
quote: Right now, a majority of the market doesn't want to move away from oil and gasoline because those are still the easiest and cheapest relative to other souces.
The Market isn't a human being, it's a beast with a hunger to profit as much as possible.
It's like asking a Heroin Dealer to give up selling Heroin because it is bad for people, his response is going to be "it's good for me. gives me lots of money and it always gets me laid."
How can we act like "the market" gives a shit about humanity or the future?
quote: Alternative sources won't be used until there is a big regular demand. I don't mean the environmental desire to use them now. I mean when alternatives become as practical and as cheap as oil. That won't happen until there is a large enough demand to justify such a general mass supply
Imagine the day where Gas is $5.00 dollars a gallon and the minimum wage is still Five dollars. Or imagine the day oil runs out. If there is no plan, it's freaking mad max man eat man armegeddom.
We must do what is right, not what is easiest or most profitable.
quote: But the market almost always works to satisfy a demand.
Without a stable society there is no market. Allowing the Market to control society and civilization and governments could lead to a catastrophic destabilization.
quote:My point is, alternatives won't be practical until we really, really want them for everyday use.
My point is we need them now.
If we wait until we want them, we're fubar'd.
quote: Show those gas companies what we think of oil and gas!
They own our government, and have us the people buggered over a barrell, they don't care what we think.
quote: I think the blame for prices at home are spread pretty evenly over everyone and every party.
Are the contributions between the parties evenly spread out? I don't think so.
And to say that working americans who do not or have never worked in the oil or energy field or profited from their profits are equally to blame as the politicans and Corporate cronies is a total joke.
We are guilty of being apathetic and lazy, but we are not equal to those who gain wealth and power from the core of the crisis.
In closing.
Today I went to the pump to put gas in my truck, right before I went to work, the price had jumped a whole dime from yesterday, and a total of .40 cents in a month.
My electricity bill is almost HALF my rent, and me and my roommate are doing everything we can to conserve energy and keep the air conditioning off when possible. (we live in houston, it is the summer)
The ONLY electric company I have to choose from is price gouging me, AND they just got ordered to pay an $800 million dollar fine for Pricing Gouging California during the energy crisis of 2001.
I get screwed and tattooed by a freaking criminal company that donates heavily to politicians local, state and national, they get to committ a crime scott free while recording record profits AND they get their name on the football stadium here.
This crap is driving me nuts.
I may have to single handidly separate Christianity from Capitalism.
Capitalism is evil and it owns our Gvernment.
If I were President, I would Socialize Energy.
We'd build as many Nuclear Power Plants as Needed and give Americans Eletricty for Business and home EXACTLY what it costs them.
The nuclear power plants would be heavily gaurded and protected at all times.
I would state a 1% tax on all goods, and the sum of those monies would go into finding a better alternative fuel to run the vehicles we NEED to get to work, and work so we can take them to play and adventure.
I would TOTALLY revamp the Political Campaign Contribtuion System, at NO TIMES would corporations have more control or influence than people.
Maybe this means giving all politicians equal funds and powers when running for office.
A election campaign salary cap.
I would ask Americans to Limit their ownership of SUV's to One per family.
I would require automakers to provide the most fuel efficient technology at their disposal.
These are my Ideas for a better future for all Americans.
I say this as a monetarily poor full time working man.
I say this with as much wisdom and empathy as I can under the Light of God.
As much as people would like to blame Bush and his policies for the increase in the price of gas, I'm afraid it's just not that simple.
The price of oil is determined by supply and demand, that's true. The increase in the demand for oil across the globe is of course partially responsible for the steady increase in gas prices but it is far from being the only cause. What you're seeing here is international turmoil affecting your lives.
I may have mentioned in one of my first posts that I'm from Venezuela, one of the world largest oil producers and exporters. Here's a little link to fill you up on what's happened over there, economically:
Now, I don't think that link really explains the full reality of the situation over there. The country is in chaos and the economy is severely affected by it. The brain drain caused by Chavez's rise to power has left the country's oil industry in shambles, therefore giving way to the recession they discuss on that website.
I could go on and on about the situation over there (trust me, my family keeps me posted) but let me assure you that it's one of the many reasons for the increase in gas prices. When the supply of oil goes down the prices will go up. Oil in this day in age has become a necessity rather than a commodity, when one of the largest exporters of crude oil in the world (top ten) has internal struggles that affect it's capacity to produce and ship said product, the market is going to respond.
Bush can't really do much to stop the increase in gas prices. The U.S buys oil, they don't sell it. He could make an impact using internal policy but that still won't fix the problems faced internally by oil producing countries.
Bush is not the problem.
Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Look at which countries these are. The latter two are two of America's biggest oil suppliers along with Canada and Mexico. It's hardly surprising that gas is cheap in those countries. It also isn't too surprising that it's cheaper in China.
However, American drivers enjoy some of the lowest gas prices in the industrialized world. It's ironic that your prices are lower than Canada's considering we have one of the largest reserves in the world and are one of your biggest suppliers. Our gasoline taxes are higher than yours. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Originally posted by newfoundlogic: I don't know why I bother. Its not like he actually makes legitimate arguments or engages in real discussion or debate. When are people like him going to realize that acting in this manner is a real turnoff to those that are neutral or moderate? When am I going to give up trying to help people like him be more effective at convincing people especially when they're the opposition?
posted
TSB, your post was so long and rambling that I have the patience and the time to reply to what you replied to my post.
quote:The Market isn't a human being, it's a beast with a hunger to profit as much as possible.
It's like asking a Heroin Dealer to give up selling Heroin because it is bad for people, his response is going to be "it's good for me. gives me lots of money and it always gets me laid."
How can we act like "the market" gives a shit about humanity or the future?
The market is all of us human beings and what we demand throughout our lives. You don't seem to understand this. You seem to think that "the market" is all of "them evil companies." When I say "the market demands" I don't mean we say we want it, I mean that we have both the means and the desire to want and need it. We can act like the market gives a shit because WE give a shit!
quote:Imagine the day where Gas is $5.00 dollars a gallon and the minimum wage is still Five dollars. Or imagine the day oil runs out. If there is no plan, it's freaking mad max man eat man armegeddom.
We must do what is right, not what is easiest or most profitable.
When oil runs out, we will have already been working towards new energy sources. It's happening now. Most people know that oil won't last forever, so people are working to get something new. I think when we run out, which may not be for another 150 years for all we know, we will be ready, or nearly ready because of the work of thousands of people who did all they could to get new sources up. I know it sounds way to optimistic to be real, but many good people are working, and in the long run they will come out on top because a large majority of the rest of us want them to succeed and are actively supporting them. Many even have our money.
quote:Without a stable society there is no market. Allowing the Market to control society and civilization and governments could lead to a catastrophic destabilization.
Again, the market is US as human beings. We are society. So therefore we control the market, not the other way around.
quote:My point is we need them now.
If we wait until we want them, we're fubar'd.
That's what I said!
quote:I really don't see any of this happening for a while. Despite our "shrinking supplies", there is plenty of crude oil to satisfy the world market for a while. This is tragic, really because use of crude oil really is damaging to Earth. The degree is debatable, and I won't attempt that here for fear of my head.
We can't accept alternatives practically until we are prepared to have them for everyday use. We just aren't and it has nothing to do with oil companies. It has to do with our desire for cheap and easy energy. I didn't say it was right! But it's better to wait for a little bit for alternatives to work practically rather than have them forced upon us by well-meaning dictatorial fools because when when things are forced upon human beings, we tend to act to the opposite of the intended effect. That would be the Mad Max Scenario.
I will continue to stick with what I said. Alternatives will not be practical until we have both the means and the desire to want and need them. Right or wrong, it's true.
Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Dude We are screwed when peak oil ensues. Which it already has. Frightening. Civilization could end. Unless folks could try to do something different.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote: Most people know that oil won't last forever, so people are working to get something new. I think when we run out, which may not be for another 150 years for all we know...
Won't mass environmental chaos ensue from global warming in less than 40 years time from now though? (At the rate we are emitting harmful gas byproducts and not convincing the public to make the switch to the very limited choices we have for more Earth-friendly fuel sources). We (humans) are not putting the time, effort, or money into supporting and developing new, healthy technologies that will become needed in the next couple decades. I don't think it’s a matter of how much longer will oil supplies last us, but how much longer will the environment be able to take the beating that it has from the increase in temperature occurring globally, rising year after year. A change in our habits can only happen gradually, and the sooner we pursue that fact with more enthusiasm, the better. There is only so much time left before the environment will be in such a downward spiral that it cannot pull itself out, and the technology we have will not be sufficient at slowing this down to allow for new technology to be developed. Even if today, the government started an aggressive project (think Manhattan) to develop new cheap, environmentally sound technology that could be put into use publicly. Even IF something like this happened, and in 2 years we have a grand solution, it would take a long time for it to be put into effect. Car companies, factories, gas stations, all of that would have to change, AND the public would have to accept it, and use it.
I'm not quite sure what point we are trying to reach in this thread though. It seems as if this thread was started just to argue about who to blame for the problems faced in the world right now, with the intention of most of it going to George W. I don't see what we are accomplishing. This seems to me to be the work of the Unmaker. (I'm almost done reading Alvin Journeyman)
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
"When we hang the capitalist he will sell us the rope we hang him with"- Me
America's consumption of energy is indeed the direct fault of not only Bush but every single President since the start of the cold war for you see as the world was beginning to divide into 2 camps America needed a weapon in which to fight Communism and 2 weapons became availiable, Liberty and Affluence.
If use use Liberty there is no shield, no counter attack, no means in which Liberty could be destroyed and if the enemy in order to defeat you had to use Liberty themselves then you have won and there is no cause for conflict, however instead you used affluence.
America bent its efforts into making sure that they had to have the highest living standards and to do that you have to encourage your citizens to consume, and inorder to supply this rapidly increasing demand the oil industries had to be given a say in policy inorder ot ensure that they grow fast enough to supply the demand, also the huge amount of wealth that America had was when it wasn't used ot increase your own living standards was put into use in other countries.
You rebuilt West Berlin and made it a jewel when you knew that the USSR couldn't do the same, you used your wealth to fund military coup d'etates to ensure that Communism wouldn't encroch on the Manroe Doctrine, you invested BILLIONS to ensure that not only you had one of the best equiped armies but also made sure you had one of the most comfortable armies, you didn't just walk or hop onto a truck you helicoptered, you flew you developed one of the most effective airforces in the world.
So when your troops were defeated in Korea and Vietnam your generals complained of overwhelming numbers, the enemy could just as easily complain about being overwhelmed by calories! And the result is that the Soviet Union by gaining their own affluence had gained enough influnce to get the PRC onto the Security Council, to force detent e with the West and to have built up a large enough of an Army and Strategic Rocket force to ensure that any conflict would be costly at best and suidcidal at worst.
Embrace Socialism! The capitalist overseers have taken control of your government and will try to do their best to ensure profit against public outcry, begin the North American Revolution! Worker's of the World Unite! Your have nothing to lose but your chains!
Posts: 4 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
No, Hamson, it isn't the point we were trying to reach. I even said that I didn't want to address it for fear of my head, and also because I don't know much about environmental science.
You do make a good point. 40 Years may or may not be a worst case scenario. I don't know, and it seems a little overstated to me to give it such a short time, but that difference of opinion doesn't matter in this argument. I agree pretty much in full with what you said.
Joseph Stalin, thanks but no thanks about socialism. I prefer to be a self-made man. So, how's hell this time of year? Posts: 684 | Registered: Jun 2002
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Stop complaining silverblue, all americans are tired of high gas prices, but it was inevitable, wether Bush or Kerry was elected it was going to happen.
Also, some high gas prices reside in state taxes. for instance, NJ just got a tax on gas, mabye you should start blaming your state government.
I think it's getting pretty redonculous how people see something wrong that would have happend to this country and immediatly blame the president(not just in our times, but during for ever)
And thats why we want HYDROGEN CARS!!!! WOOOT!!!!
Posts: 262 | Registered: Jan 2005
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People have been complaining about the rising price of gasoline recently, but I have always thought that gas was a good value (especially if you were to take the $0.30, $0.40 per gallon tax off at the pump)! Obviously others need a little convincing. So the article in this week's "Autoweek" magazine brought it all to light. What if you were to buy a gallon of . . .
- Diet Snapple 16 oz for $1.29 = $10.32 per gallon
- Lipton Ice Tea 16 oz for $1.19 = $9.52 per gallon
- Gatorade 20 oz for $1.59 = $10.17 per gallon
- Ocean Spray 16 oz for $1.25 = $10.00 per gallon
- Quart of Milk 16 oz for $1.59 = $6.32 per gallon
- Evian (water) 9 oz for $1.49 = $21.19 per gallon
- STP Brake Fluid 12 oz for $3.15 = $33.60 per gallon
- Vicks Nyquil 6 oz for $8.35 = $178.13 per gallon
- Pepto Bismol 4 oz for $3.85 = $123.20 per gallon
- Whiteout 7 oz for $1.39 = $254.17 per gallon
- Scope 1.5 oz for $0.99 = $84.84 per gallon
So next time you're at the pump, be glad your car doesn't run on Nyquil or Scope or Whiteout!
Posts: 250 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I don't think that's really revelant. If Pepto Bismol became unaffordable, the economy would still function just fine. But if gasoline becomes unaffordable, people can't get to their jobs, the costs of products rises (due to increased costs for transporting these goods) making inflation soar, and in general the economy does very poorly until we find a replacement. White out just doesn't have the same consequences.
On a personal note, I recently got rid of my car because I decided I just couldn't afford it anymore. Gas prices played no small part in that decision.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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It doesn't really, though. I bet the bulk statistics for those same products would put almost all of them well below the cost of gas -- including their fancy packaging. After all, gas is bought in what would be bulk quantities for those things.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Zarex, that's also an unfair comparison because the 16 oz price is heavily reliant on the price of packaging, not the fluid. For instance, a 16 oz bottle of Arizona green tea is $1.65, whereas a gallon of it is $5 - and is often on sale for $3.
Buying massive quantities always lowers the cost, because there's less packaging. A gallon of milk, for instance, will cost a lot less than buying 8 pints, or 16 half pints, in their individual cartons.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Naturally, but buying a gallon of milk- an endless resource- is still more than double the price of gasoline- a nonrenewable resource.
Posts: 250 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Yep, you're paying for the additional inventory control, the additional shelf space taken up by individually packed items that aren't even bound together, the extra marketing for luxury consumer goods, et cetera.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Well, if you buy at full price. Buy when they've got milk on sale and it'll be less than a gallon of gas. Granted, its usually a loss leader in such a situation
And that's an individually packaged gallon of milk; imagine if you bought individually packaged gallons of gasoline. Gasoline is cheap in large part because its bulk. If they could ship milk in tanker trucks then dispense it into giant containers consumers had at the ready, the price of milk would be at least as low as the price of gas.
Not to mention that the price of milk has a very large constant price of production per unit, as there's a limit to how much each cow can produce.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Milk prices are pushed up by the supermarkets I hear. Farmers hardly see much profit... old second hand info, so take it with a grain of salt.
Also, you are paying for the gas used to get the milk from the farm to the grocery store. Which is why the price of everything will go up if the price of gas doesn't stabilize.
Posts: 1209 | Registered: Dec 2003
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Okay...So people who complain about gas prices whine because it's expensive to drive a car and we should start conserving gas...Okay. Quit driving. That's conservation. I think if everyone who whined about gas prices and blamed it all on the government just stopped driving (Instead of being hypocritical about it) there wouldn't be a problem. It seems like everyone who does this wants to enact laws to govern companies. What are new laws and government action going to do? Nothing for the next few years. The recent energy bill that was passed took 5 years to make it through the labrynth known as the American government. The only thing that is going to actually have an affect is if enough people stop whining and start acting.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I feel perfectly comfortable driving it, particularly as I don't drive all that much (well, when school starts I'll drive more, but its still a relatively short commute).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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