posted
... now in my experience this sort of thread actually leads to a increase of the targetted behavior as people flex their freedom to disregard me.
But please, think of the kittens.
(I apologize if the positioning of this post makes it seem like I'm picking on one person. Don't worry, if it were only one person I'd just reply in your thread. The problem is much larger.)
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Rent! andi330 10 September 24, 2005 01:16 PM
The coolest t-shirt ever. Harry Potter Spoiler! andi330 3 September 24, 2005 01:07 PM
A Prarie Home Companion is coming to theatres! andi330 3 September 24, 2005 12:49 PM
I just couldn't believe it!!!! andi330 12 September 24, 2005 12:35 PM
Every time you use an exclamation point, pooka 5 September 24, 2005 12:58 PM
quote: posted September 24, 2005 12:58 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When people break out the periods of ellipsis, I will start stabbing.
So, I'm up for a promotion... andi330 1 September 24, 2005 01:19 PM
I think you've found your arch-nemesis.
Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
But what got me started was the Help!!! thread yesterday. And I'm sure andi only used the dots of ellipsis because it's been so long since we've had a thread like this. I'm sure I've been guilty of using them from time to time, but they are a replacement for being articulate, just like profanity. I don't care much for sarcasm, either. But if I try and tell people not to, they just turn around and claim they weren't being sarcastic and I am obtuse.
(edited for assymetrical pronoun agreement. What is the world coming to?)
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posted
I like ellipsis. I tend to type in the same style as I talk, and in casual conversation that includes occasionally trailing off. This is, to me, casual conversation, and I don't see why you'd have a problem with a perfectly valid form of punctuation.
I have no idea what's wrong with exclamation points, either, although I prefer people not use more than one in a row. People get excited about things. You can't express your excitement through tone and manner online. But there is a handy little bit of punctuation that can help! If this was a business proposal or something, sure. But it's not. Why don't you like them?
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quote: I'm sure I've been guilty of using them from time to time, but they are a replacement for being articulate, just like profanity. I don't care much for sarcasm, either.
I don't think they are immoral. But it's one of those ps & qs things that I think makes Hatrack a little different, like not using bold, italics, and all caps inappropriately, or putting the right homophones in the correct context. I don't bust people on dangling prepositions. It just seemed like time for a course correction.
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posted
I still don't see why you think they are a replacement for being articulate. Just like bold and italics, they can be used appropriately, and have their place in a well constructed post.
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posted
I guess it depends on what you mean by articulate. I think it means to express oneself with verbal clarity. Dictionary.com said: Expressing oneself easily in clear and effective language: an articulate speaker. Characterized by the use of clear, expressive language: an articulate essay. (def. 3&4)
I try not to use "wanna, gonna, gotta" and similar colloquialisms. But sometimes doing so makes me reformulate the sentence, "gotta" in particular because just spelling it out as "got to" doesn't usually result in an OK sentence. It turns out it means something more like "have to." That's probably the main thing I catch myself doing that I stop and fix. In such cases I'm not really concerned that someone won't understand what I'm saying if I don't do those things. So I guess I'm just doing it to be formal. I realize I rate higher than average on the formality spectrum. My guess would be you are less formal, based solely on your purple motorcycle.
I think it's good for everyone to have their own styles. Hatrack would be pretty boring if we were all the same. But it's also nice that we articulate what we are saying so that hopefully people who aren't like us might understand us.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I have no problem with anything you're said . . . but I still have no idea why you think the use of ellipsis or exclamation points make a post less clear.
Now, would that sentence be easier to understand with perhaps a semi-colon? Or separated into two sentences with a period? How does the ellipsis reduce the verbal clarity?
Also, would you guess I was more or less formal if my motorcycle was black? How about orange? I'm not trying to attack here, but you've brought my mode of transportation up on a couple of different occasions to try to illustrate facets of my character, and I just don't think it's a valid indicator of anything other than the facts that I’m relatively risk-tolerant and think riding is fun.
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posted
A purple or orange motorcycle says "fun" to me. Whereas a black, dark/navy blue, or white one says "I wish I were a cop." Black and also red might also say "call the cops." Does orange include amber? Because I almost wrote a rude comment about them. Like "I got a price break".
Don't worry that I have you in the "purple motorcycle" pigeon hole because you are honestly the only person I ever knew of who had one. I didn't know they existed, so that's probably why I seem obsessed by it.
I also don't understand why yellow sports cars exist. I used to not understand why they make fancy disposable plates (like Chinet) but then I became aware that Jewish people use them for special events because they make it simple to keep kosher.
My husband often things my attitudes on things are puzzling, because I'm both very formal and relatively "go with the flow" (I can use quotes here because this is a term from the U Minn Behavioral sorter- I typically deplore use of quotation marks for emphasis.) But he is very informal and dominant. We both think the other is an oxymoron personified.
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posted
Yeah, I don't get why you're trying to compare ellipses to profanity. I find it much easier to understand what someone is trying to say when they type like they talk.
Of course, I think there's a time and place for profanity, too, so maybe you'll have to stay formal and meet us halfway by trying to understand the way we post.
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posted
If you want to type me by vehicle, my favorite care that I ever owned was a steel gray Volvo 740 turbo, followed by my current ride which is a burgundy Plymouth Voyager (mini-van, from back when Chrysler was the mini-van kings). My dream car is a navy blue BMW sedan. My husband was responsible for the candy apple red mazda pickup and the Ford Aerostar, which happens to be gray but he wishes it were green. He thinks it's a great car, and I have thought since 1984 that it is one of the ugliest cars ever manufactured.
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posted
I think that ellipses and other "abuses" of punctuation are a way of expressing things that are not conveyed well through the written medium, particularly online.
Here is another thing...if you want to be completely correct, Graemlins aren't actually "proper" for grammar or punctuation for the written medium either, but they serve a purpose online, and serve it well.
A lot of things are not readily available for us to consider when posting here. Facial expressions, tone of voice, volume, eye contact. I know for a fact that several times here at Hatrack people have taken what I said wrong, through no fault of their own. It was a lack of clarity on my part in expressing what I actually meant, and IRL there would have been no doubt in ANYONES mind that I have been joking about the subject. But the reason they took it wrong wasn't because they had it out for me, or they were oversensitive.
It was because the written medium lacks the social cues that regular conversation has to express specific moods, tones, and intents.
If someone uses ellipses, or exclamation marks, or made up Internet speak (to a point, like IRL and YMMV ) to express a point, it is a completely valid form of expression. It becomes the Internet equivelent of a raised eyebrow or a wink, and makes their point more clear.
I fail to see how that makes them a
quote: a replacement for being articulate
.
Sarcasm, well, that is another story. I like it, although it is hard to pull off online sometimes....
posted
Every year, millions of exclamation points are added to sentences where they don't belong. Often they end up on the streets or put down in shelters.
Please: spay or neuter your keyboard.
(Or if that doesn't work, start chopping off index figners)
Posts: 1735 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
The use of multiple exclamation points indicates a diseased mind.
Which isn't to say that one isn't appropriate in many circumstances. It indicates excitement.
And I love using elipses when I type. I talk the same way. I trail off... start up again... trail off. The elipsis expresses that very well.
Posts: 4112 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I can't keep a converation on a single topic for more than three seconds anyway, So, I find that the so called ellipses are a good way to express distraction...or...dramatic pause.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ElJay: I like ellipsis. I tend to type in the same style as I talk, and in casual conversation that includes occasionally trailing off. This is, to me, casual conversation, and I don't see why you'd have a problem with a perfectly valid form of punctuation.
The problem is that reading and hearing are vastly different processes. Conversation transcriptions can be a real pain to read. I have no problem with ellipses if they'r used sparingly, but I find that the overuse of them impairs readability. Punctuation should guide the reader along without drawing undue attention to itself.
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posted
I just read a highly convoluted political science paper which included ellipses at the end of some of the paragraphs. It was like the author didn't quite know where to stop.
I think that casually, ellipses can be very useful, like all punctuation. Used too much they can get in the way, just like all punctuation.
posted
Jon Boy, I have certainly seen paragraphs where there were so many dots that I just wouldn't read it. But I would say overuse of any form of punctunation impairs readability. That's practically how I would define overuse, in this case. The original complaint didn't include anything about overuse, just "When people break out the periods of ellipsis, I will start stabbing." So I consider that a wholesale maligning of a perfectly valid form of punctuation.
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posted
ElJay, I totally agree with that, but I doubt that you type exactly like you talk. Of course, I've never heard you talk, so I can't really say for sure. Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I didn't say exactly, I said "I tend to type in the same style as I talk. And, for what it's worth, I've had people who knew me first here that I later met in person tell me they thought I came across the same in person as in my posts. *shrug* Again, that's not saying exactly. I dont think that would be possible, really.
posted
Alright, this thread has got me curious about my own online typing patterns, and just how annoying they are to the average person. I use ellipses a lot, especially in email, and I'm curious as to whether I use them in ways that are generally tolerable or not. I do use them when not strictly necessary, but my intention is always to further articulate my meaning, not to replace articulation in the first place.
Examples: If I don't know the outcome of a situation, I might use an ellipsis to emphasize that I'm unsure of what will happen. "Hopefully that plan will work, but you know Jimmy..."
If I'm making an allusion to something, I might use it to articulate the sense that that sentence leads to another memory or story which the reader knows and will think about however briefly before returning to the present 'conversation'. It's like an apostrophe on steroids that saves entire stories instead of just one poor, ostracized letter. "Yeah, kind of like us trying to canoe in Algonquin, eh... Anyway, call me next week when you hear from her."
If I'm teasing/joking with someone, I'll use it in place of a winky graemlin or typed smiley face. Generally, apart from forums, I tend to avoid emoticons and related non-words in favour of just about any other way of letting people know I'm joking. "Ahhh, so *that's* why you had to leave early..."
So are these acceptable uses, or do they fall under the category of annoying excess? Are there unacceptable uses of ellipses, besides a general overabundance of them in any given paragraph?
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I think when I was new at Hatrack, someone that I want to remember as Ela or Kayla said that if your thought isn't finished, don't type the first part. If you have more to say, finish typing it. That was the opinion of this mystery person who seemed wiser than me at the time regarding ellipses.
And I must confess the stabbing thing was some kind of joking thing. Sarcasm doesn't seem right, because that would have to be the opposite of what I felt. But it's not like I came up with the idea of stabbing, I was just replying to someone else suggesting stabbing. In reality, I do find ellipses less offensive than exclamation points.
I'm reminded of a poem someone had in our high school lit mag about how someone neutered their writing by turning all the dashes into commas. Only it was a poem, so it was much more textured than what I just said.
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posted
My husband asked why I was laughing and I told him a bit about this thread, and he said "Fistfights are a failure of articulate speech, not exclamation points." See what I mean?
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posted
Ellipses should be used to indicate faltering or interrupted speech, according to The Chicago Manual of Style. That seems like sort of a narrow prescription to me. However, I think all three of those examples could have used a mere period without losing any of the voice or meaning.
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posted
Well, if religion and politics aren't options, language usage is sometimes the next best topic to choose if you want to engage someone in a heated argument for whatever reason.
And yes, I suppose the meaning of all three (especially the first two) would still be quite clear without the ellipses. I do think they generally help get joking/sarcastic/teasing tones across better than a period though, in the absence of other clues like .
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Joldo: Every year, millions of exclamation points are added to sentences where they don't belong. Often they end up on the streets or put down in shelters.
Please: spay or neuter your keyboard.
(Or if that doesn't work, start chopping off index figners)
Why would you use your index finger to type an exclamation point? It's the number one on the keyboard, you should be using your left pinky.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Frisco: Rent! andi330 10 September 24, 2005 01:16 PM
The coolest t-shirt ever. Harry Potter Spoiler! andi330 3 September 24, 2005 01:07 PM
A Prarie Home Companion is coming to theatres! andi330 3 September 24, 2005 12:49 PM
I just couldn't believe it!!!! andi330 12 September 24, 2005 12:35 PM
Every time you use an exclamation point, pooka 5 September 24, 2005 12:58 PM
[QUOTE] posted September 24, 2005 12:58 PM
Ok, perhaps the three in the one sentence are a bit much, but there is nothing wrong with using an exclamation point to express excitement, that is what they are for. Maybe I was just excited today, hmmmm? Don't worry there will be other days when I'm so down nothing will seem exciting.
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posted
I like the fact that you used a comma in your thread title pooka but then completed the other half of your sentence beginning with an elipsis.
Posts: 1214 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
andi, I have recently discovered that a certain portion of the population doesn't actually touch type, and might use an index finger even for an exclamation. It was traumatic for me, especially when Tzadik threatened to break all my fingers except my index fingers so I would be like all the other slow typists around.
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And, for what it's worth, I've had people who knew me first here that I later met in person tell me they thought I came across the same in person as in my posts. *shrug* Again, that's not saying exactly. I dont think that would be possible, really.
