posted
I have to admit to having mixed feelings about this. I'd be worried about them facing predators that they'd be unable to face because of captivity stripping them of their natural instincts...but at the same time, it's kind of the captivity that's the problem, you know?
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Although, I have to admit to having the same mixed feelings as Megan. I'm glad that the two dolphins are now out of danger, but isn't it kind of our fault in the first place?
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posted
I saw that story, and I adore dolphins, I just didn't have much to say .
My first thought when I read on CNN that the Aquarium got creamed was "I really hope there wasn't any dolphins there". Its amazing that they were dragged out to sea, but then were pretty much okay.
There is a small part of me, however, that almost hopes the remaining six dolphins remain at sea. The story says how the scientists are worried that they don't have the instincts to avoid boats and predators, but the article also mentions how the folks trying to save them expect capturing the others to be more difficult, because they "get pretty wise to our tricks". Seems to me that they are smart enough not to have to depend on their instincts too much .
Either way, I'm glad they are out there having fun!
Edit: wow, looks like all of us had the same mixed reaction Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Well, of course it's our fault. But what, you would leave them to die because you feel guilt about their being born in captivity? *big sad eyes*
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
hmmm...I suppose the 15 gallon aquarium that I've got stored away probably won't work. But do they really need to be in water all day?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Originally posted by camus: But do they really need to be in water all day?
Why yes. I believe that they do.
I think that it is fine that the dolphins made it back home. I think that if I were a dolphin, I'd be pretty thrilled to be in the ocean.
It is like taking a city apartment dweller camping for the first time in the great wilderness. Those have got to be some happy dolphins.
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posted
Actually, I see it as being more like kicking your children out onto the streets, without having taught them survival skills. If I were a dolphin I would totally want to live in a nice tank with fish 3 times a day and health care instead of out in the open sea homeless. I don't understand the free willy mentality. None of the people I know want to go survive on their own in the wilderness. That's a very hard, short, brutish life. Give me the comforts of civilization any day!
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quote: "Our biologists and the trainers say all of them appear significantly underweight and have severe to minor wounds. These animals have been swimming in water, where we are unsure of the conditions, and have been nutritionally stressed for two weeks. We remain cautiously optimistic that they will recover from this ordeal."
Apparently they've been feeding them fish from a NOAA boat since they found them again after the storm. They are urban mammals like you and me. Just as we would not have the skills to survive if you plopped us in the middle of the wilderness one day, neither do they. If they're shy of being caught it may just be because the storm scared them a lot. I'm really glad they were found. I hope they're able to catch them soon and keep them safe.
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posted
Im suprised they dont come back to there trainers. I thought the trainer dolphin bond was fairly tight.
Posts: 832 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Are they really so helpless in the wild after being raised in captivity? Just how intelligent do we think dolphins are? Would a human captive prefer to continue with the safety of captivity, or to take his/her chances on his/her own?
I am with the mixed feelings group. Sometimes freedom is worth the danger. Truly, pet owners protect their wards from harm, but is the exchange worth it to the animal? I think in some cases it is--especially when the animal has been genetically domesticated to the point that it is incompetent in the wild. My pet guinea pigs spring immediately to mind. Or when the animal's chances in the wild truly are destroyed by captive raising.
But a sapient or near-sapient being learns to adapt, does it not? I don't know enough about dolphins. But the situation is borderline enough that I am *not* overjoyed at the dolphins being found by their captors.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well bev, I think that Tatiana's "how would you fare if you suddenly found yourself in the wilderness" question is on the money. I don't doubt that these dolphins could learn to catch food, avoid predators, and keep away from boats, any more than I doubt that I could learn to hunt, forage, start fires without the aid of matches, and build a secure shelter for myself. What I don't have confidence in is my ability to learn to do those things before I had starved or died of cold. Likewise, it might take these dolphins more time than they have to learn those skills. What would be nice would be to create large pens of some sort that would allow us to control conditions for them while putting them in situations in which they could learn survival skills, and then give them the opportunity to leave if they wanted to, with channel left open back to the aquarium if they didn't want to brave the oceans after all.
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
I guess I question the quality of life of any captive animal. Black slaves in America chose to run away and live a dangerous life taking their chances rather than be captive to other humans. It is an extreme example, but nevertheless, my gut reaction is not to be overjoyed at their "rescue". I would be far happier if the dolphins showed signs of seeking out their human home. How much is their captivity us protecting them and how much is it us keeping them from leaving? A dolphin who is free to come and go from humans as it chooses would be ideal, I think.
I agree that the situation you put forth would be cool.
Too bad we can't communicate with dolphins very well.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Oh, I definitely know where you're coming from. I have mixed feelings about keeping animals captive as well, especially when they're sapient or near sapient. Dolphins, elephants, higher primates...keeping them in captivity doesn't sit well with me at all.
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posted
Certainly if dog domestication happened according to current theories, we could argue that dogs "chose" to become domesticated, "chose" the companionship and partnership with humans, freely.
But those other animals you mentioned have *not* come to us willingly to participate in the "civilization" we can give them.
In short, I believe we agree. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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A child is not going to ask for restrictions and limitations, yet we impose them anyway for their own protection. And we would hardly think of letting a child come and go as they like deciding for themselves whether they want parental direction or not. Largely this is because we know that the world is a very dangerous place, and their lack of experience coupled with their curiosity could prove disastrous to them. The result is that their freedom is limited so as to protect their well-being.
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
camus, I agree with your analogy to children. Also I remember back to my cat Mouse's fear to approach me after she had been in the wild for 2 weeks. She was afraid to come to me because she was just plain afraid. Being lost in the wilderness, hungry, weak, lacking sleep, exposed to the elements, is simply terrifying.
After I caught her and brought her in, she ate a whole can of catfood in about 10 seconds. She had lost so much weight in only 2 weeks it was very sad. She spent the next month coming up to me and suddenly flopping onto my lap and purring as if to say "thank goodness you're here still!" Ever since that time five or six years ago, she's had separation anxiety and doesn't like for me to be away from her for very long. I would say that despite her initial fear to approach me or let me catch her, she is very glad to be back home.
To me it's not so much a freedom vs. captivity issue as a civilization vs. homelessness issue. I don't want to be homeless, to live on the streets and have to forage in dumpsters for food, and I don't think other animals do either.
The dolphins are starved and they're wounded. They need to come home.
posted
I do agree that freedom matters. I'm just not sure how to lovingly or responsibly allow freedom in a situation where it's unsafe. Just as you wouldn't let your toddler swim in a lake where there were alligators, I don't let my cats outside in the woods where there are coyotes. And I don't think I blame the dolphins' handlers for not letting them swim the open oceans where there are predators and ships' propellers and other dangers they don't understand and aren't prepared to handle.
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posted
The question is, for an animal that is adapted for life in the wild, how analogous is being in that environment to being a homeless human? For a domesticated cat, sure, I can see what you're saying, but does the argument hold up with, say, a herd of wild elephants?
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Should people try to recapture an animal that is accustomed to captivity if it manages to get back into the wild? Yes, I believe so. Similarly, animals born into captivity should not be let loose in their otherwise natural environment.
Should people take animals out of the wild to begin with? This is much harder to answer. How does one calculate quality of life for a creature that is not self-aware? Does our sense of freedom mean anything to them? Personally, I don't think we should take animals out of their environment for our own personal pleasure, but I doubt that's going to stop happening.
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posted
Yeah--if an animal does not have the skills necessary to survive in the wild, especially if it's because we took action that deprived them of the chance to develop them, we absolutely have a responsibility to help those animals if they get back into the wild. As I said above, I'd like to see these dolphins be taught survival skills and given the option of remaining in captivity or not, as they choose (though I'm not actually proposing that we do that at this time--for now, just get them back to the safety of the aquarium).
There are definitely circumstances in which I think that it's a good idea to capture wild animals, such as when their wild populations are so low that their species is likely to be driven to extinction without a concerted effort on our part. For the most part, though, I agree with you.
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quote:I'd like to see these dolphins be taught survival skills
My first mental image was a dolphin in a fish school. Then it became a dolphin in boot camp. Now it's somewhere between a dolphin trying to start a fire and a group of dolphins starring in a reality show.
*tries to concentrate* Oh yeah, that's a good point about helping endangered species.
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Conan had pretty much the same thing to say last night: "Oh, thanks, yes, please rescue me from the ocean and put me back in a tank! I just love my tank!" But then, it's his job to be funny, not to think it all the way through.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
pH, I did see that. That was Marine Life in Biloxi, MS that evacuated their dolphins to several hotels that had indoor pools. They said they treated all the pools first to neutralize the chlorine and that the dolphins did fine.
I thought it was a cute story, but it didn't get much press because (rightfully so) stories were focused on people that were in danger, rather than animals.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Noemon, I see what you are saying, but I think one thing I'd like to look at to compare between the two is life expectancy in the wild vs. in civilization. Obviously these particular dolphins in the story need to be captured and cared for, based on their loss of weight and their wounds. I would guess that the life expectancy for dolphins in civilization is much higher than in the wild, but if the reverse is true, for instance, then I would be in favor of making it illegal to keep dolphins at all unless they had freedom to leave at any time.
Otherwise, I would certainly understand why someone who loved and kept dolphins wouldn't want to let them go out into the dangerous wilds to be injured or killed. Certainly my cats are much healthier and happier since I made the decision a decade ago to keep them inside.
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posted
I'm intrigued. I'd really like to know just how these dolphins' "toxic dart guns" work. How do they fire them?? Posts: 952 | Registered: Jun 2005
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