posted
One of the onanism threads got into this subject, then it dropped off the map and a thread specific to Catholicism took its place. I find this issue really interesting and wanted to ask everyone what they think.
It seems to me that most of Chaim Potok's wonderful books are about this tug of war between orthodoxy and dissent in one's heart. I've felt the same thing about the LDS church. He doesn't have any answers, nor do I, but the process of thinking about it has been a fruitful one for me. And it's obvious from the other thread that Catholics can feel this way as well.
So what do people do? Do any two people actually interpret a religion in exactly the same way? Do any two prophets have exactly the same interpretations? Any two Popes? Do some people accept 100% of the teachings of their respective faiths? How does it work for everyone?
I'll start off by telling what I currently believe (subject to evolution over time), by repeating my post from the other thread. From here on down is my other post, so skip it if you read it there.
I feel this total superposition of states on this question. On the one hand, I know that faithful adherence means you are part of the covenant. I feel it deeply that it matters. I don't get to pick and choose.
On the other hand, I believe no church leadership is infallible. The more I learn about the history of the church, the more I understand that to be the case. Also, I do not believe we are meant to give up our moral agency to others ever. The process of moral growth and development absolutely requires that our own hearts, minds, spirits, consciences, and deepest selves be straining to understand, to puzzle things out, to put it into practice and see how it stands up, to test, probe, question, and learn daily, even hourly, every day of our lives (and beyond).
That's why my church leaders teach true principles and let people govern themselves. They specifically refuse to make detailed judgements on every issue. We are given the Word of Wisdom, for instance, and then we are told to put it into practice in the way it has meaning for us.
I can do this, I can use my own judgement, in an honest way or a dishonest way. It's up to me to decide which I want to do. Like kat I believe that if I use my own judgement to decide everything I'm doing now is perfectly fine and dandy, then I'm not gaining anything from my time spent on church, prayer, reading, and study. However, if I turn over my agency to someone else, be they ever so holy and wise, I am failing just as much if not more, in the task I'm appointed. God put me in charge of myself for a reason.
There's this superposition and dynamic balance that occurs sometimes, that to me seems to be the ideal state. I'm never 100% sure of what is right. I'm pretty positive about some things and less sure of others. I learn as I go. I learn by doing. And when the prophet or other general authority, or my bishop, says something is right, then I trust them. I have seen them be right about thorny questions too many times to discount what they say. If it's something that seems wrong to me then I take it under deep consideration. I make a trial of their suggestion, and see how it works. I take that leap of faith.
Almost everything I've done this for, I have come to agree with them, usually for reasons totally different than what I assumed up front. Some things you just can't judge until you give them a fair trial. My life has been greatly blessed thereby. I am extremely grateful for the teachings of my church.
But there are some teachings that I have to conclude that for me they don't apply. Perhaps the church moves over time from one position to another, and I like to think I can sometimes be a bit ahead of that curve. At one time the church was strongly in favor of capital punishment, for instance. Now the official position is no position. So if I were an opponent of capital punishment in that former time, I would be at odds with the church teachings, but I would hold my dissent in superposition, trying to understand where I might be wrong or not seeing something the church leadership has been shown.
At one time blacks weren't given the priesthood. That situation deeply grieved many people back then. There was great rejoicing when the revelation came extending the priesthood to all worthy male members of the church. Rather than let such issues separate me from the church, (and there's no telling which teachings today may change in the future), I try to prayerfully and deeply consider the teachings and then decide what I think.
If I didn't believe the church has access to deeper insights and higher understanding than I possess, then I wouldn't be a member, however, I will never give up my free agency to anyone else. It is mine forever. And I know that the church leaders are not infallible
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I appreciate what you are saying... I just have a fairly radical belief that I am trying to superimpose on the Christian faith that is arguably the most concerned with orthodoxy and legality.
I look forwrd to seeing what other people have to say here... Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
When I was in college (and a theology minor at a Catholic university) I was taught that there was room for dissent within Catholicism. I was taught that, in order to be Catholic, you had to agree specifically to the issues that were considered dogma, and most of those were contained in the Creed.
In the years since, I have seen varying positions, even from "official" sources, on what is technically dogma, and I have gotten the specific impression that the Church is trying to cut down on dissent. This has played a (minor) role in why I no longer consider myself Catholic, because there are some positions of the Church's I feel certain within my heart are simply incorrect. (Most of these have to do with sexual morality. And it's not a question of rationalizing away what I want to believe, because I am a married, monogamous heterosexual, so it's not like it's hard for me to live within their rules. I also disagree with the Church on the issues of married priests and female priests. The former could be said to affect me, but the latter obviously does not.)
The only wiggle room I seem to see coming from Rome lately is that it seems to be possible in many cases to believe the Church is mistaken--what you cannot do is act on or preach that belief. In other words, you may believe something is not a sin, but to practice it against the teaching of the Church still would be.
If I ever thought I was close to being able to reconcile myself with Christian beliefs, a big issue would then become how much room for a variety of beliefs existed within a particular denomination.
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quote:So what do people do? Do any two people actually interpret a religion in exactly the same way? Do any two prophets have exactly the same interpretations? Any two Popes? . . . How does it work for everyone?
Well that's just it. No two people read a text in the exact same way. Any observer will view any text in light of their own unique personality. The deeper and more complex the text, the more divergent the interpretations will be.
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posted
For me, it's this issue that will keep me in non-denominational christian churches. I strongly prefer a pastor who says up front, here's how I interpret what the scripture says, but you read it and draw your own conclusions. And hey, by the way, if you don't like this church, if it doesn't float your boat, I'd be happy to recommend other churches in the area that might be more what you're looking for. To me, this is the very definition of freedom in Christ.
Basically, my thing is that no one person on earth, except Jesus when he comes back, is going to be there world's expert on God or his scriptures. I want to be with a community of people who want to know Him more, who want to serve each other and the surrounding community, and who are shepherded by a genuinely humble leader. I don't want that churched tied too heavily to tradition or doctrine, though I do appreciate the beauty of ceremony -- I love Catholic services and would love to go to a Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox church sometime. To me, the formality is respect for a great God. That kind of preparation to worship is something I hold some awe for. But I couldn't live with it every week.
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posted
I am a firm believer that the gospel of Christ is not complicated, that it shouldn't be, that addendums and constraints put on it by people are open to debate. I believe that worship of Christ is highly personal, that while there are definite boundaries and guides to keep, one makes his own path. As with the parable of the ten virgins, a life of personal righteousness and preparedness to meet the Lord could not be shared. Everyone has to work out their own salvation, and that's a very personal process.
I believe that there are some things that God has given us to do in this life, and that those things must be done according to God's order. I also believe we are here to give each other guidance and support in doing those things and enduring to the end in our personal journeys back to God.
But it is always up to us to decide how teachings and decrees fit into our own personal spiritual lives, and it is definitely up to us to decide whether we will follow them or not. We are given the ability to do many things according to our own free will. I don't believe it should be any other way.
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quote: When I was in college (and a theology minor at a Catholic university) I was taught that there was room for dissent within Catholicism. I was taught that, in order to be Catholic, you had to agree specifically to the issues that were considered dogma, and most of those were contained in the Creed.
In the years since, I have seen varying positions, even from "official" sources, on what is technically dogma, and I have gotten the specific impression that the Church is trying to cut down on dissent. This has played a (minor) role in why I no longer consider myself Catholic, because there are some positions of the Church's I feel certain within my heart are simply incorrect. (Most of these have to do with sexual morality.
I agree pretty much with Icarus on this. My choice is to stay in the church and keep fighting because I believe in the ideals of the church. I love the church for what it is supposed to be and could be, rather than giving up because of the wyas it has fallen short. Rather like my love for my country, in some ways.
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posted
I think a great deal of the Catholic Church's attitude towards sex stems from Paul's belief that Jesus would return much sooner than he has and from St. Augustine. I love much about St. Augustine and I'm glad that he had a lot of influence on the early Church. However, he was a man for whom sexuality was a very bad thing. Rather like booze for an alchoholic. It wasn't something he could have in moderation and thus it took him further and further away from God. Because he was so influencial, his problems with sex became our problems with sex. I don't believe God intended it that way. After all, even St. Peter had a wife and child.
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posted
And with a lot of protestants having a very Augustinian outlook... yeah... you could see how that might extend through all of modern Christendom, too.
But Catholicism has a unique position with it's claims of infallibility for the council of bishops when teaching on morals. How does that play?
For you, Tatiana? Would it change your ability of superposition if the LDS church claimed infallible authority on something you disagreed with?
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I think I would probably dissent on that particular point of infallibility. It's not compatible with a scholarly study of church history. In fact, it would be very hard for me personally to accept a church whose leadership claimed infallibility.
However, and I can't emphasize this enough, I would never let go of the superposition and simply resolve questions in favor of what I think. I do believe that the Prophet and the priesthood are ordained by God to guide and teach me. These points which I can't resolve are a source of puzzlement, prayer, and dynamic striving to understand. We do have to be teachable in order to learn, so I try my best to open myself up to the teachings and leave room in my thoughts for greater understanding as time goes by. I don't think that process ever stops.
For your particular dilemma, I would recommend you think it through from every angle, which it seems you have done, then pray to receive confirmation of what you feel is right. God will guide you.Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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