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Author Topic: So, I'll just let him rob and hit, me then shall I?
Pariah
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So I'm suspended from school for a few days, and that absolutely burns me up. I can't believe it!
Now the school administration is absolutely nuts, every last one of them love to Excersize their power. But this is just plain old dumb. I want your opinions on this because this whole situation is the most ridiculous thing I have ever gone through because of my school's administration. So this is what happened:

(This isn't going to be in a pretty format so please mentaly prepare yourselfs)

After Gym today I walked into the locker room early because I had to go to "guidance," basically a school counselor asks me repeatedly if I need to be moved into a lower English class because I got a poor grade on a mid-quarter report. The reason? I missed a test due to illness and they wouldn't let me take it because my mother hadn't called the school and expressly told them that I was indeed unable to come to school that day, and basically beg them to let me make up my school work. Since it was 1 of my total of 3 grades for this mid-quarter, yes we get 8 report cards a year for some unknown reason, I received a grade of a 66% (aced those other 2 tests though, but that doesn't matter does it) So I'm already not happy. Anyway I walked into the locker room early to change out of my gym clothes, and found some other student rummaging through my locker.
Now my wallet is in there with approx. $35, my cell phone, house keys and other various things of less importance were also in there but I wasn't too worried about them, mostly just the cash and phone. Now in order to get to my stuff he had to actually break the metal piece that my lock goes through which isn't that difficult as someone did it to their own locker accidentally earlier in the year but this definitely wasn't an accident. Now a lot of stuff gets stolen from my school, but rarely anything you lock up, so I was needless to say a little bit surprised to find my locker ripped open and some kid pawing through my stuff. I did yell at him "What the hell are you doing?" which startled him (I've never seen him before, and I don't even know his name )
he turned to me and I could see him shoving something in his pocket (Which turned out to be my cell phone, thank God, because I can prove it's mine, if he had taken just the money and not my wallet I would have been out of luck all he would have had so say was "No, that's my money" and possession is all they need for proof, who ever has it currently, must be the owner because we can't specifically prove it's not his) so I grabbed his wrist and he punched me in the face. I threw a punch now because really what other option do I have? It should be inherently obvious that he is not going to let me just walk out of
there, and he's already started throwing punches. se we fight and wrestle for about 2 minutes before a teacher comes in after hearing a commotion and drags us both to the office. In his version of the story I walked into the locker room and just started hitting him because I didn't like him. Uh-huh. I go through what happened and this idiot Administrator asks me if I can prove he was the one stealing my stuff. I showed him my ripped open locker and they didn't
think that was sufficient. I started looking for what was missing and couldn't find my phone, I told them it was missing, and they walked up to this thieving ... Kid and merely said "Did you take his phone?" he said "no" and they didn't know what to do. They couldn't go through his pockets, oh no, that would be wrong, I had the secretary call it, and ringing away in his pants is my phone, his excuse as to why he had it? he found it on the floor and didn't know who it
belonged to so he was trying to find out whose it was. I could see in this administrators eyes he was considering this! He was buying this crap! In the end we both got suspended for 3 days, for fighting. WE BOTH GOT SUSPENDED FOR 3 DAYS FOR FIGHTING! Do you know the line in The Boondock Saints when Rocco walks into the Russian mob hotel room? What the, who the, how the, how did you.... yeah that was all that was going through my head. It was the only thing they had a witness to, was that we were fighting. We both got the same punishment.

Now I assume you all can tell that I am absolutely flipping out over this. And this is standard school policy too mind you, not some spur of the moment decision. If people are caught fighting, no matter who started it or what the reason "All parties involved will be given a 3 day, out of school, suspension" <--- From the student handbook. Now I want to know what all of you think about this entire situation but more importantly what do you guys think I can do in regards to the school Administration? I doubt very much they will repeal the suspension but, I think they definitely didn't handle this situation appropriately. What do you think I should do about this? Did I do something that I shouldn't have? the only thing I can think is I grabbed his wrist but like I said I didn't know what he had and if it was cash I was out of luck. If any of you were in a situation like this I would love to know how you handled it.

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imogen
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I guess I wouldn't have punched him.

But that sucks, Pariah. Even if you should be suspended for fighting (which, incidentally, I'm not sure I disagree with) I certainly think the theft /attempted theft should have been dealt with much more severely.

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Pariah
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Well my only point on that is that he knows I know he's stealing my stuff and I didn't think he was going to let me just pleasantly stroll off and get somebody especially after already throwing the first punch.
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ketchupqueen
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I find it's much easier to take the moral high ground if you have a black eye and the other kid has not a mark on him and is in possession of your stuff. There's not much they can say to THAT. And it sounds like your school needs a)better locks and b)better security staff.
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Pariah
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There response to better locks and security staff has been "don't bring anything to school if you can't bear to have it stolen" I'm caught in the delicate position of leaving my cash at home and having my brother steal it, or taking it with me and hoping nobody else does.
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ketchupqueen
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You need a good strong lockbox at home.

That, or a bank account.

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Hamson
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Damn, that sucks. I would've probably squinted, with a confused look on my face wondering if it was my locker, then walked closer, and once I saw that it was, I would've (like you) screemed "what the hell are you doing?!". Then I don't know what would happen. Because this doesn't happen often at my school, and I would probably know the kid that did it. Either way we would probably end up fighting. But then if a teacher came in, they would almost definitely belive me (I have a very good rep with teachers).

As for the school policy, I really don't know what to say. It seems like most, if not all schools have very poor, stupid policies to incredibily discourage fighting (even though they are normally wrong in the ways they do this, as seen in your case). I don't know how you'd go about changing it if you wanted to. My best advice is to probably wait it out calmly (hopefully you have understanding parents that don't mind so much that your suspended, because you did the right thing). I know I'd have a hard time remaining calm, but try, because it will help.

-A similar story-
My old choir teacher was telling our class about one time when her son got drum major, and the other guy going for the position jumped him in the halls the next day at school for no dammed good reason. So her son fought back, because, I mean, are you just going to let him beat you up? And they both got suspended. She said she really didn't care though, because her son did the right thing, and it was just the stupid policy that got him suspended.

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Rico
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Actually I've actually experienced the situation Pariah talks about in Venezuela while I was in high school, or at least something similar. You'd be surprised to find that rules like these are common in a lot of schools. In my case I got a 3 day suspension for fighting as well, thing is, I never started the fight, it was self defense. The fact that I was one of the top 5% in my class didn't change anything, neither did the fact that my record was (and is) spotless.

I'm sure the rules are there for a reason, I'm sure most kids who get in fights deserve the suspension but sometimes people just get screwed over by the system. Happens in the legals system, happens in schools too.

I think what's needed is not a complete change of the rules, but people who are better at interpreting them. Unless you had a good motive to "not like" this guy, or the school or a teacher had noticed you picking on him or anything like that, they had no reason to believe his claims over yours, specially when you told them he stole your phone and then called it and noticed it was in his pocket.

Sorry Pariah, wish there was more I could tell you but the situation just sucks. Been there, done that... But don't worry, it won't affect you nearly as much as you think.

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Pariah
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Ketchupqueen - I have to carry some money on me because I buy my own lunches at school, and I go to work after school untill about 8 so I usually have to buy my own dinner. I am thinking about the lockbox though, I bought a door lock, and my brother learned to pick locks and climb in through windows

Hamson - That's the only thing keeping me lucid right now is that my mother is a very good parent and understands the situation and has often dealt with these guys so she understands

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Hamson
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You've got a pretty intense brother there.
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Pariah
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Well I don't give him too much credit, there's a ladder right by my window because I was caulking some leaks in the roof, and I didn't think I needed a really good lock, so I bought a cheap $10 inside door lock, it has a key and everything but with some paper clips or safety pins and ten minutes of jiggling you can get it to pop open
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Bob_Scopatz
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I think you should have your parents press charges. Have the police come to the school. Have your parents talk to the Principal, the Superintendant and the School Board.

Do NOT taking this lying down, my friend. When the authorities screw with you, the next thing you do is get BIGGER, BETTER authorities.

Some obvious questions:
1) Why didn't they call the police when you'd reported a theft and caught the kid who did it?

2) You should start discussion assault charges on the other kid too. Just cuz you hit him doesn't mean you can't file assault charges if he hit you. At the very least, you'll have the school administrators peeing in their pants for a few minutes.

3) File charges against the officials who did come in and not handle the situation according to standard procedures.


This could really be a lot of fun if your parents are willing to go for it. At the very least, you'll get out of your suspension, I suspect.

I also think you should consider starting a student organization dedicated to documenting thefts on campus and reporting the lax attitude of the admins.


Anyway...if I were your parent, we'd be spending the evening talking to "officials" all over town and I guarantee you'd be in classes tomorrow or we'd be arranging a lawsuit.

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tern
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I think it is worth looking into whether or not you can file charges against the other kid for burglary.
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GaalD
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[Mad] That's really messed up and I'd be really pissed if that happened to me. Don't take my advice, but I would probably plot some form of revenge involving breaking into his locker and hiding all of his stuff or something like that [Evil] Just kidding, but if the school isn't going to give him what he deserves, you should [Evil Laugh]
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airmanfour
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Never met a Bob i didn't like. only known two though. not that i actually know Bob. anyway, with that post, the potential is definately there.
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Bob_Scopatz
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Mind you, we'd have a very serious talk about fighting.

AND, before I did ANYTHING, we'd make sure I knew the FULL story. I would not take kindly to being surprised to learn something later on that made it look less than 100% the way you presented it to me...

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tern
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This is the same sort of attitude on the part of school authorities that leads to suspensions from bringing butter knives to school.
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Pariah
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I was actually thinking about pressing charges Bob. I think it would only be a charge of petty theft because he took a 2 year old phone that was only worth $150 when I bought it. What exactly would a minor get for if convicted? As for the administration what could I really sue them for? My mother has had words with them after they quite effectively screwed my brother over, and they don't seem to care.
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Beren One Hand
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I second Bob's advice. However, I think before you call the police you should try and get some sort of confirmation from the secretary regarding the ringing pants story. Maybe you can get her to write you an email or, better yet, get her to write you a note in her handwriting.

This is important because you don't want the school to cover up how stupid they were about this whole incident. The school officials could very easily deny that you had any proof of a theft and you'd be left with a "my word against yours" type of situation.

Always gather your evidence before you make any waves.

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Dagonee
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You've got a broken lock, your testimony that he was going through your locker, and his possession of the phone. He's got his story that he found it on the floor plus the history of locks breaking through normal use.

It's not clear the state could meet its burden in a criminal case for theft against the other student.

I'm not sure there are "charges" that can be filed against the school in this matter, assuming criminal charges was meant.

I'd be careful with criminal charges. You technically committed a battery when you grabbed his wrist, and your rights to do so to protect property vary considerably from state to state.

Anyway, kind of sucks that they didn't punish him for the theft. There's plenty of evidence for a school punishment.

As for the school not searching the kid, that's ridiculous.

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GaalD
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Did the kid deny that he had the phone right before they called it? Because if he didn't he could still use the same excuse as before, saying that he found a phone and then you two got into a fight.
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Goody Scrivener
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You said that there's been an ongoing incidence of thefts out of school lockers. What if by reporting this kid to the police and getting the real authorities involved, they're able to recover some of the stolen goods? Then it's no longer just a 2 year old phone and $35 but a serial burglar that you've just help catch!

As for the suspension, roolz is roolz. The reason they suspend everyone involved is so that the teacher who catches the fighters doesn't have to make a judgment call as to who started it (or who's telling the truth about why the other guy did). I remember one particular incident when I was in high school where there were about a half dozen witnesses all testifying to the exact same series of events and the kid who got picked on still was suspended because of policy. No, I don't think it's right in a case where it's clearcut like that, but it is the rule.

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Pariah
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He denied he had MY phone, I probably should have been more specific. he was asked if he had MY phone and he said no, we, the secretary and I called it, and it was in his pants, his response was that he had found it and was trying to figure out who it belonged to.

So yes right before we called it. However it worries me that he can say he didn't know it was MY phone that he had.

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Beren One Hand
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They asked the kid whether he took Pariah's phone. He said no. It was not until AFTER they called the phone that the kid came up with the "I found a phone theory."

If the kid was telling the truth (or a better liar), he would've confessed to finding a phone BEFORE they called it, not after.

I think any reasonable person would be able to see that the kid was lying about the phone.

Dags is right that you probably won't be able to prosecute this kid effectively. But I think the whole point here is to force the school administrators to admit that THEY MADE A MISTAKE. At this point I would be a lot more upset at the school than I am at the other kid.

BTW, Pariah, how does your record stack up against the other guy's? Have you ever been caught fighting or stealing? Has he?

If you've never been in trouble before, I think the police would be more inclined to believe your story.

Do your teachers like you? Is the other kid a teacher's pet? I ask because I wonder if the other kid was given the benefit of the doubt because he may not have seen "the type" to steal things. If he were a well known troublemaker, I doubt your teachers would be unwilling to believe your story.

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Pariah
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Well at this point, Both my brother and I, have put up with absolutely incompetent administration I've started to get used the being generally... smoldering is a good way to put it, at the administration. It's almost like we have roles, they're ignorant and incompetant, and I'm disgusted with them.

I don't know about the other guys record, they won't tell you. but I've never been accused of stealing and the only other thing they've had to talk to me about was a disagreement I had with a teacher, nothing violent. She said something ignorant towards me and I told her quite calmly as a matter of fact that I didn't think so, and that she shouldn't completely dismiss my thoughts because they differ from hers. she kicked me out of class anyway. I don't think it would affect anything though. Would it?

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Dagonee
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quote:
They asked the kid whether he took Pariah's phone. He said no. It was not until AFTER they called the phone that the kid came up with the "I found a phone theory."
If the kid was telling the truth (or a better liar), he would've confessed to finding a phone BEFORE they called it, not after.

Yeah, this is definitely a credibility boost for Pariah. "Gee, I've got a strange phone in my pocket and this guy's missing one, but I don't know nothin' 'bout that."

The problem I see at trial is a judge saying, "there was a fight, this kid grabbed this kid first, and then there were lots of accusations." There will probably be a confused timeline as well, especially if the school engages in some preemptive editing of the events (this can be done unconsiously by people who think they are right).

What worries me most about bringing in a prosecutor are possible assault charges against pariah. I'd certainly consult a lawyer before proceeding.

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King of Men
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So what did you do to your brother after you caught him stealing? Would it be safe to assume he sported a black eye or two for a while?
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Pariah
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Which brings me back to my point earlier, He took a phone, with a value of less than $150 even if convicted of whatever charge I bring against him, he's a minor I bet he would get a proverbial "Slap on the wrist"
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Beren One Hand
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That's a good point Dags. It is always a good idea to consult a lawyer. [Smile]

Pariah, it certainly helps that you don't have a history of fighting. A disagreement with a teacher is no big deal.

If you're not willing to press charges, at least bring this up in the next school board meeting, write a letter to the local newspaper, and write an editorial for your school newspaper.

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King of Men
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Well, that's perhaps so, but isn't the satisfaction of being proved right worth something? Also, consider that he would quite likely be moderately terrified that the police were brought into it at all - unless he's already a hardened criminal, in which case the police might not see it as very minor at all. You might get to see him pissing his pants from fright.
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Pariah
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the problem with my brother stealing my stuff is I know he is stealing my stuff because I lock my door every day and I come home to find my door ajar and my DVDs and videogames missing and my unemployed brother has enough money now for coffee and cigarettes and other little things and I never see the movies or games again. I never catch him at it because he does it while I'm in school. I can right now name over 20 dvds that mysteriously disapeared on me though. up to 5 in one day.

I wish I could catch him though. He's 19 But I have size on him. That would be worth losing a few dvds for a good 10 - 15 mins of beating on him.

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King of Men
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Eh, what do you need to catch him for? Just beat him up anyway. If he's guilty, that might stop him; if not, why, being your brother, he has no doubt done something else to deserve it.
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Pariah
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Well, the years of torment and abuse could count as a good reason for him to catch a beating, but I don't like to fight because it always makes me feel like I lost controle. Once I start calculating the money I've spent, and the money he probably got for trading it in for cash I do want to bash him... Hey aren't you guys supposed to discourage violence? [Evil] Fighting him hasn't stopped him yet but maybe the next time I find something missing I'll give it another shot.
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King of Men
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What do I care if you get in trouble? Go for it, dude. As for losing control, why, you jsut say to yourself that you've made an absolutely cool and controlled decision to beat the shit out of someone, in the pursuit of your legitimate security concerns. You know, like Bush in Iraq.
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Pariah
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That's a good point. He has WMDs! Ways to underMine my Defenses! Time for War! but i'm only going to liberate my DVD's
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erosomniac
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When the administrative machine fails (as it often does), and justice is not being done, you don't really have a choice but to turn to the darker, less legal methods of instilling fear into the hearts of your tormentors. Something that will seriously freak him out and make him never want to do anything bad ever again.

...you need to find Batman. Only he can put a stop to this.

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Rico
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^^ That post made me grin... I was just about to post something similar about Batman.

[Big Grin]

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Lisa
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If it ever happens again, do your best to beat the heck out of the guy. If you're going to get suspended, at least make it worth it.
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El JT de Spang
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Our legal system doesn't punish both parties equally when a fight takes place; it recognizes that sometimes one person is the instigator, and self defense is legal.

You're on stronger ground, storywise, but more than that is the fact that it's not actually about putting the other kid in juvie, it's about making your school admins pull their heads out of their @sses. If you start legal proceedings against them and the kid, you'll shock them enough to maybe make some changes. You don't actually have to go through with it. Just talk to a lawyer about what happened, have him write a letter and show it to the administration.

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Dan_raven
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1)Ask to speak to the Vice Principal. Ask them what they are doing about this theif. If they have done nothing else, ask them what you can do to protect your property, and have them put it in writing. If they give you the standard responce, then you are free to take other measures.

2)Tell everyone that the guy is a crook. That you were reemed by the administration and a crook is running free. Print out leaflets and pass them out. If the administration can't control this crook, then you get too.

3) Write an letter to the editor of the school paper and the community paper with the story. Do not name the individual because then you have libel issues if you have no other proof of his crime. The letter is to get changes in the administration. Send a copy to the school board, with a copy of what the Vice Principal told you, written down.

4) At home, well, you have three days to gaurd your stuff, but spend that time complaining about the theft, and about what a low, stupid, thing being a theif is. Complain about how such a person is worthless and has no value to this world. Really lay it on, always in the presence of your brother, but never accusing him of anything. See how he reacts.

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krynn
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ok, i couldnt take the time to read everyone's reply, but here is my take on it.

If the other kid denied taking anything of yours, and then when the phone went off in his pocket, and he said he found it. that has lie written all over it. the administration wasnt hard on the other kid because if the parents of this kid take his side and argue that their son got punished for trying to "do the right" thing and find the owner of a cell phone, the administration doesnt want to deal with that.

what i suggest u do, is have one of your parents express to the principal that they understand how it could be difficult to take action if no one else was there to witness the theft, but it is their (school's) responsibility to make the students feel safe. now its hard to stop someone to is dtermined to steal, but having lockers that break open on accident is just terrible. i would have my parent explain that he/she agrees with the 3 day suspension for fighting, but should also punish the other kid more for stealing. also i would ask to have someone check to see if the other kid has had any record of trouble at school before.

and lastly, i think everything u did was right, even the punch. if someone else tries to punch u and u are alone with that person and are the type of person who never fights... well i imagine u were scared and incredibly nervous as how to defend yourself. if i were u, i wouldnt be mad about getting suspended because u know that something has to be done about students who fight. that said, i would be upset just like u, that defending personal property and trying to steal something and then attacking the rightful owner are two things that shouldnt be punished the exact same way.

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Tresopax
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quote:
so I grabbed his wrist and he punched me in the face. I threw a punch now because really what other option do I have?
What good did throwing the punch do? Yelling would have been a much better idea, and doing whatever you could to slow him down until another witness showed up. As long as he didn't get away with your stuff before anyone showed up, the authorities would probably make sure you got it back. But you should know, at least from now on, that throwing a punch is only going to get you suspended too. (In real life, in comparison, throwing a punch at someone stealing from you could get you killed or seriously injured.)

Also, keep in mind that this is not just about you. These policies are designed to send a message to other students - that they cannot ever use "he started it" as an excuse. Your suspension is a message to them.

Don't assume, however, that receiving the same suspension means you are being punished the same, though. Suspension is the "official" punishment, but it's not the whole punishment. The real punishment is what the school, teachers, and administrators think of you - because that's what's going to really effect you in the long run. I suspect they knew your story was true, even if they couldn't prove it. In the future, I suspect they will be closely watching the dude who stole your phone much more so than you. School officials can be unfair, but they usually aren't stupid.

quote:
Do NOT taking this lying down, my friend. When the authorities screw with you, the next thing you do is get BIGGER, BETTER authorities.

Some obvious questions:
1) Why didn't they call the police when you'd reported a theft and caught the kid who did it?

2) You should start discussion assault charges on the other kid too. Just cuz you hit him doesn't mean you can't file assault charges if he hit you. At the very least, you'll have the school administrators peeing in their pants for a few minutes.

3) File charges against the officials who did come in and not handle the situation according to standard procedures.

I suspect this would be the worst thing to do. It would result in causing a lot more trouble for you than this is worth, and I'd suspect you'd still be suspended because the administration is pretty much in the right here, if the rule for fighting is that both parties get suspended. And you might end up in trouble with the law, AND with a far greater black mark both on your student record and in the eyes of teachers or administrators. The one benefit would be that this is probably the only way you could change the system, if such a thing were possible.

Don't go to bigger, better authorities unless the situation is really serious enough to warrant it.

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El JT de Spang
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quote:
But you should know, at least from now on, that throwing a punch is only going to get you suspended too.
Actually, if you read his account of what happened, the other kid probably would still have claimed that he'd been hit for no reason, and they would've both been suspended anyway.

The only other mark that would end up on his record if he pursues this is a note that says, "Do not trifle with this kid or his mom. They will not let you walk over them."

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Farmgirl
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Take it outside the school. I totally agree with Bob on this one (and I hadn't even read his post when I began my reply)

What I'm saying is -- charge him (via police) with assault.

This will override the school and make all the facts have to come out more.

And least you will get a more fair hearing than you are in school.

FG

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Tim
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Pariah, you have the unfortunate luck of being around some pretty lousy characters. I can clearly understand your anger with your situation. However we're judged by our actions mostly and less by our intensions and in this case you made the mistake of being the first one to become physical. I know you were in fear that your belongings might be stolen however we can rarely take the first step and physically stop someone when we ourselves are not in eminent danger. In the future put your money into your sneaker while in gym.

Next, the problem at home. Are you sure it's your brother? Does he ever have friends over that might be doing this theft? Have you talked with him? Have you told your parents about your missing items? If you have a small VCR you can probably purchase for about twenty dollars a camera that you could use to record anything that happens in your room while your gone. Hide the VCR though so it's not also stolen. You would then find out who has been stealing your items. Make a copy if possible. Show your parents the video. If it is your brother would your brother listen to them? If all else fails would your parents object to having you file a police report for stolen items?

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Theaca
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But he touched the other kid first, so that could backfire when they counter charge HIM with assault, couldn't it?
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Architraz Warden
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quote:
As for the suspension, roolz is roolz. The reason they suspend everyone involved is so that the teacher who catches the fighters doesn't have to make a judgment call as to who started it (or who's telling the truth about why the other guy did).
I'm not the worst person in the world, but this sort of rule always had me wondering: If someone started a fight with me, and I was going to wind up suspended anyways, wouldn't it be better to dribble the poor kid's head against the lockers until someone pried me off. I always felt I should truly earn the full length of my suspensions if one is going to be forced on me regardless of context.

As for your situation, you did get a bum rap. Throwing the punch in the given situation probably wasn't the best idea, but if someone is stealing my stuff and throws a punch at me, I'd be very likely to do the same. As for taking it outside the schools jurisdiction, I can't give any opinions that haven't already. It could be a good way to shake up the school, but it's not something that'll endear you to them by any means. And unless everything is fairly well documented to this point by school officials, I'm not sure what the cops will be able to do this long after the incident in terms of proving one thing or another.

EDIT: What we're actually talking about here is less assault, and more battery (correct Dagonee?). Less implied or verbal threats of force, and more the actual use of force. I guess the question here would be whether or not restraining someone who has done wrong is battery.

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Tresopax
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quote:
The only other mark that would end up on his record if he pursues this is a note that says, "Do not trifle with this kid or his mom. They will not let you walk over them."
I don't think that's very realistic wording. It'd be more like "This kid is a Troublemaker" - and that's a label you don't want in any school or other organization.
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Papa Moose
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quote:
What good did throwing the punch do? Yelling would have been a much better idea. . . .
But that would have been abuse.
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El JT de Spang
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It's not 'trouble-making' to try to insure the guy who robbed and assaulted you doesn't go unpunished. Schools are responsible for your well-being while you're there and for them to do nothing is negligent.
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