Ok, so they want to ban Primatene mist because it depletes the OZONE? Have they ever squirted the stuff? Have they ever seen how little comes out? Even if all the asthma suffers in the world hit this stuff at once there's not a chance there be enough to affect the ozone and that's assuming the ozone thing isn't junk science anyway!
I don't get attacks very often. Because of this, sometimes I reach for my Albuterol and it's dead. I could go to the pharmacy and wait for an hour or so while they try to figure out what Albuterol is, if they have it in stock and if they feel like giving it to me (pharmacies are REALLY bad out here.) all the while gasping... Or I could grab Primatene off the shelf, take a hit and be fine. Now they want to limit my options for enviornmental reasons?
Yet, somehow I can't even pretend to be surprised. These people don't care about other people, just their agenda. And if a few asthmatics suffocate in their own mucus, well that's just fine.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Primatene mist makes my attacks worse. I tried it once several years ago when I was at my grandparent's house (4 hours from my home) with an empty inhaler. I almost wound up in the hospital because of the stuff.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I've heard lots of horror stories about primatene, and my doctor told me not to touch it with a ten-foot pole.
But I'm glad it works for you, Pixiest. Even a minor asthma attack with no access to medicine stinks.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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They are phasing out CFCs in ALL inhalers. All the other inhalers, prescription inhalers, have been working on their new HFA inhalers for years. So they aren't out to get anyone. This is not new information.
I guess I don't see a problem. When people are on prescription drugs, they aren't supposed to run out. Period. And if people are self-medicating asthma with OTC drugs because they don't have a doctor, maybe they should have one.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I have, in an emergency, used caffeine in the form of coke to help an asthma attack. It doesn't get rid of it completely, but it does help.
I don't have an inhaler because my attacks are so infrequent - every other year or so. On the other hand, the ayurvedic medicine worked far more effectively on me than any drugs I've ever been given.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Theaca: They are phasing out CFCs in ALL inhalers. All the other inhalers, prescription inhalers, have been working on their new HFA inhalers for years. So they aren't out to get anyone. This is not new information.
I guess I don't see a problem. When people are on prescription drugs, they aren't supposed to run out. Period. And if people are self-medicating asthma with OTC drugs because they don't have a doctor, maybe they should have one.
Which brings up an interesting point. Whatever company makes primatine mist has known about this just as long as the companies that produce other inhalers. Why have they chosen to sit on it this long? I'd be more ticked at the company trying to save money by not switching earlier. I can just imagine a bunch of executives huddled in a board room saying, "Oh crap, they were serious! Now what?"
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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From everything I've heard about Primatene, if it was invented today it would never be accepted by the FDA. It only continues to exist because it's grandfathered in.
If Primatene alters their formula, it may trigger an FDA review, so they may be hoping to keep it "as is" for as long as they can.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Glenn Arnold: From everything I've heard about Primatene, if it was invented today it would never be accepted by the FDA. It only continues to exist because it's grandfathered in.
If Primatene alters their formula, it may trigger an FDA review, so they may be hoping to keep it "as is" for as long as they can.
Which explains why it's going to take them 3 years to "Reformulate." AKA - figure out a way to do the same thing with different chemicals (Seriously. It takes 3 years to figure out how to change the delivery method? Riiiiight.)
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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I've never tried Primatine. I would be willing to do so, though, so please tell me more about it.
The toxic mold death plague in New Orleans has made me start having asthma attacks on a regular basis. My asthma is so mild that I had never had a real, severe asthma attack before last week, when I ended up on the floor of my living room for half an hour wondering if I was going to die because my albuterol inhaler wasn't helping, and clearly, I could not even stand, much less drive to the clinic for a breathing treatment.
Turns out, the mold is irritating some airborne allergy that I didn't know I had to the point that steam from the shower triggered an asthma attack. A real one. It was the scariest thing ever.
quote:These people don't care about other people, just their agenda. And if a few asthmatics suffocate in their own mucus, well that's just fine.
You know, that is so twisted. What do you think their agenda is? Just to protect the environment for no reason? The environment is where people live. You don't need this stuff, it's just one of many options for you. If they get it banned, you can just use something else. Small price to pay if it helps protect the planet on which we live. Wouldn't you say?
Well, okay, you wouldn't. But still.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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TL, the same two sentences made me stop too.
I mean no disrespect Pixiest, but don't you think it's kind of the other way around? I could hear someone saying, These people don't care about other people; they're so wrapped up in the fastest solution to their problems. And if we ruin the environment for everyone, well that's just fine.Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Which explains why it's going to take them 3 years to "Reformulate." AKA - figure out a way to do the same thing with different chemicals (Seriously. It takes 3 years to figure out how to change the delivery method? Riiiiight.)
I remember working on a reformulation of a drug delivery system. I came in after they'd be working on it for 5 years, and that was 5 years ago and I don't think they figured it out yet. It's harder than you think because, and this is critical when we're talking about pharmaceutical design, nobody really knows what they're doing.Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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I'm actually an admirer of The Pixiest, but there's a logical lapse that occurs in the way people try to demonize environmentalists and their agenda as being this self-serving thing. Their behavior *isn't* selfish. The agenda is a selfless agenda.
What's selfish is continuing to use a product that might be dangerous to our planet because it's a little more convenient.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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I wonder if the environmental concern becomes an issue at the large factories where the individual units are made. There, you have large quantities of the material being created, stored, transported, and packaged. Just as in the making of old-fashioned air conditioners with freon, I bet there's a lot of necessary bleed-off in the production.
It does add up, much more than you'd think.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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And the CFCs inhaled into the lungs are mostly breathed right back out, you know. (This has been shown through radiolabelling in the testing of CFC albuterol inhalers). Particulate matter has to be of a certain size in order to be deposited and absorbed by the body.
(This is why only one particular size and shape of asbestos fiber is found in the "ferruginous body" complexes that are formed in the lungs of asbestos workers.)
Plus, whatever amount of CFC is absorbed with inhalation would be excreted unchanged by the body, as we cannot biologically break down CFCs anyway. It all ends up in the stratosphere, eventually.
Has there been any discussion of using the HFA alternative in Primatene mist, or would the cost be prohibitive?
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote: These people don't care about other people; they're so wrapped up in the fastest solution to their problems. And if we ruin the environment for everyone, well that's just fine.
Now picture yourself saying that to someone who's gasping for breath, Celaeno.
TL: "An Admirer?" I'm flattered =) Even if we disagree on this issue.
I really do think the environmental agenda is a means to A> Funding for research, B> Power for politicians and C> Donations for activist groups. It's sort of like religion, only there's even more money and power in it.
Now I'm not saying we should go back to the days of throwing our garbage out our car window, but we're NOT destroying the world.
Now wait a minute. I'll agree that if there are other asthma treatment options that are just as affordable and effective-and it sounds like there are-without posing such a degree of harm to the environment (which frankly in light of all the other threats, I'd say is probably minimal), then go for it. Ban it but give people all kinds of warning well in advance.
But environmetalism is a selfless political movement? Hogwash. Disregarding the fact that most environmentalists drive to work in automobiles and just love electricity along with lots of square-footage in their homes, environmentalism is now a tool to power for many.
Sure, the pure, unadulterated core of environmentalism is "sefless", but the same can be said for all kinds of political movements.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:But environmetalism is a selfless political movement? Hogwash. Disregarding the fact that most environmentalists drive to work in automobiles and just love electricity along with lots of square-footage in their homes, environmentalism is now a tool to power for many.
That's a stereo type that I have found is highly inaccurate. I participate with a number of political groups with people who many describe as "environmentalists". The overwhelming majority of them make a concerted effort to make environmentally conscious personal decisions. Many of them own no cars. Many who own cars, still commute by bus and bicycle when ever possible. All of them live in smaller homes and have made personal financial sacrifices to to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. I can give you dozens of specific examples of dedicated environmentalist who walk the walk, so unless you can give me more than a Rush Limbaugh stereotype -- retract your statement.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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Yeah, I don't think Primatene Mist is a big concern for the ozone (at least compared to other things). As an asthma sufferer, I know about having to once in a great while run out and buy Primatene Mist because my Albuterol inhaler (or even my Maxair inhaler) are out or I left them somewhere (like on a trip or something). Primatene Mist doesn't seem to be any asthma sufferers main medication, so I'm not sure what the real concern is. *shrugs*
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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Rabbit, a few small groups of environmentalists who actually walk the walk are representative of the whole? And start looking at the region. Your profile says you live in Utah. That's a highly conservative state, where it isn't "chique" to be an environmentalist. You need to take a complete sample across the whole country to really get a realistic view of things.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote: These people don't care about other people; they're so wrapped up in the fastest solution to their problems. And if we ruin the environment for everyone, well that's just fine.
Now picture yourself saying that to someone who's gasping for breath, Celaeno.
It's not as though there are no other options available. If Primatene was the only medication you could take to relieve an asthma attack, then we would not be at odds.
quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: And I can give you plenty of examples of SUVs with Greenpeace stickers on them, Rabbit.
Um...argumentum ad hominem, anyone? You can discredit the people all you want, but it's the argument you have to defeat, not the people themselves. Just because some environmentalists are hypocrites does not mean that the entire environmentalist cause is dismissible.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Calaeno: Sometimes Primatene IS your only option. If you don't have your presciption and your albuterol is dead.
As for the ad hominem argument, I was countering Rabbit's anecdotal evidence with my own concerning the selflessness of those involved in the environmental movement. Read back through the thread and you'll see.
I liked Dag's suggestion of OTC Albuterol. Then I'd never use Primatene because a better alternative exists. (but not because of any ozone damage. for purely medical reasons) On the other hand, I DO get what I call an "Inhalor High" from my Albuterol. I can see why they wouldn't want it sitting there for anyone to buy.
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Alright, let me be more specific. Most people who would characterize themselves as "concerned about the environment" and vote for politicians who say the same thing, Rabbit, do the things I said they do.
A political movement does not consist only of its diehard adherents who live and breathe it. It also consists of people who support it in less substantial ways, and also of the people who claim to belong to it. You know that just as well as I do. If we start judging movements only by what people who adhere to its strictest standards do and pretending the rest aren't really in the movement, well then, discussion of all sorts of things would be quite different.
Frankly it's amusing that you're telling me, "You're just quoting a Rush Limbaugh stereotype," and your response is...anecdotal evidence. Nice insult, by the way. The new aggressive Rabbit is quite a different animal from the old one. It will take some getting used to.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Well Albuterol (at least as far as I've been told) is like the strongest kind of dose/medicine, meant mainly for when you are having an asthma attack. Other medicines (in my case the Maxair inhaler) are meant for when you are just struggling with breathing, but it's not at the attack level. I always saw Primatene Mist as something in between the two.
As for why there's not an OTC Albuterol, not sure really. My guess is there may be a concern that you'd get used to that and would use it whenever you're just having slight problems breathing (and should be using a lesser medicine). That could lead to the need for a development of an even stronger kind of medicine. *shrugs* I don't know.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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The problem that I think about with OTC albuterol is this. It CAN do a fairly good job short term. Folks can use it 6, 8, even 10 times a day to stave off a visit to the doctor/ER. Meanwhile the asthma is getting worse and worse. Suddenly it is so bad, the person dies, far from help. If only they had come in, they could have been saved. So the amount of albuterol people are using needs to be monitored. That's why it shouldn't be OTC.
I don't agree with Pixiest's argument that when she runs out of meds, she needs it OTC. Folks with hypertension, diabetes, etc don't have OTC versions of their meds available. The point is to not run out of meds. If no OTC were available, you'd get used to thinking ahead enough not to run out.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I remember similar commentary about both Tagamet and Prilosec when they were being considered for OTC status, but of course, they aren't generally covering up a problem that can kill you in a couple minutes.
I'm on two different daily medicines, and sometimes I screw up renewals. I can see doing it repeatedly if it's something needed only when attacks happen and that you can't look at and tell if it's empty. Maybe they need to come up with a way to get a small auto-refill for certain types of meds if someone runs out. Make it fairly expensive (have to think how we would make this work for poorer people) to discourage it's use and put a cap on how often the emergency method could be used.
Complicated issue. On the one hand, I hate having to go through the refill rigamarole every three months. On the other hand, I would forget to get my 6-month blood tests pretty much every time if they didn't have the prescriptions to hold over my head.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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You deal with Diabetes every day. It's not like it's something you can just forget about.
Now that I live in California I don't get Asthma attacks like I used to. But when I get them I need it fixed *now*. If it's been a year since my last attack my inhalor might be dead/useless.
These days I keep a spare around. (That reminds me.. did I use up my spare?) But what about a person without health insurance? Should they have to pay however much albuterol costs for the uninsured for it to lay around and MAYBE they'll use it? When Primatene costs $10(ish) and is always on the shelf waiting for them?
Pix
(All this talk of asthma is giving me a psychosematic case of it...)
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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The only time I've ever purchased or used Primatene Mist was one trip to visit family in Missouri. I brought one albuterol inhaler and one maxair inhaler with me (since my asthma gets worse there than it is here). What I didn't know was that both were near empty and that they didn't last beyond the first day. My second day I couldn't breathe, I was having headaches due to lack of air, and it was just really bad. We had two options: a) try and find a doctor of some kind in the middle of nowhere Missouri or b) go to the near by Wal-Mart and grab a Primatene Mist and use that as a substitute for the remaining few days in Missouri. So yeah, I think there's a reason to have OTC asthma medications of some kind, for emergency cases like this.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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You could have also gone to the pharmacy at that same Walmart and had them call either your home pharmacy or your doctor for authorization to give you albuterol.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Then I'd point to Pix's point about albuterol costs compared to Primatene costs. My parents' insurance only covers so many inhalers and wants to do most of our prescriptions through mail order. If we don't, we pay out the wazoo for prescriptions (like I am at the moment for my Lexapro and clonzepam).
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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I have no insurance. My parents also have no insurance. They poured a BUNCH of money into my brother's asthma treatments; they even ended up buying him a nebulizer, which they might end up shipping to me.
My steroid injection was free as far as I know, or perhaps it was added to my school bill. But a lot of doctors aren't sympathetic to the issue of no insurance. At least my pediatrician at home will give me free inhalers when she has them available.
At the same time, if there's something that's cheaper and relatively effective available, I think I'd consider using it.
quote:Rabbit, a few small groups of environmentalists who actually walk the walk are representative of the whole? And start looking at the region. Your profile says you live in Utah. That's a highly conservative state, where it isn't "chique" to be an environmentalist. You need to take a complete sample across the whole country to really get a realistic view of things.
I've also live in Seattle where it is chique to be an environmentalist and Montana, where its sometimes chique to be an environmentalist and Germany, where its considered anti-social not to care about the environment. I think my perspective is a bit broader than Utah.
Sure there are people who think of themselves as environmentalist who do stuff that isn't environmentally sound. There are also people who think of themselves as Christians who engage in unchristian behavior. There are libertarians on welfare and marxist who invest in the stock market. I'm certain that this kind of inconsistency exists in every ethical and philosophical system around. So what?
The fact that there are very wealthy Christians with fish all over their SUVs, who never give a dime to help anyone else does not prove the Christianity is a selfish philosophy.
Likewise, the fact that there are wealthy, polluting, highly consumptive environmentalist with Green Peace bumper stickers, does not prove the environmentalism is a selfish philosophy.
There are also Christians who walk the walk and those who do not. There are also environmentalists who walk the walk and those who do not. It is unfair to judge either movement based on that alone.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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This thread is so frustrating. These 'anti-environmentalist' arguments are so illogical and closed-minded. I'm not even asking anyone to accept the science, all I'm asking people to do is accept the possibility that environmentalists might be well-meaning.
But no. It seems impossible for folks of a certain mindset to even acknowledge good intentions on the part of political opponents.
I see good people taking the position that those who don't agree with them are automatically ill-intended, automatically stupid, automatically wrong, without even really considering the opposite view, and it freaks me out.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:Sure, the pure, unadulterated core of environmentalism is "sefless", but the same can be said for all kinds of political movements.
So what? We're not talking about *all kinds of political movements*, we're talking about environmentalists. What difference does it make whether or not other movements (and I take it that you mean movements that haven't ended well, like Communism) had selfless motivations?
That makes environmentalists wrong?
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:The overwhelming majority of them make a concerted effort to make environmentally conscious personal decisions. Many of them own no cars. Many who own cars, still commute by bus and bicycle when ever possible. All of them live in smaller homes and have made personal financial sacrifices to to improve the energy efficiency of their homes.
That's pretty close to what I have observed, also.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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Environmentalism is NOT the issue. I don't care who is backing this. I care about the actual ozone layer. You know, the one that is already so damaged that if we stopped using all CFCs this very second, it would take about 50-75 years to fix itself? (With gradual phase-out, as currently planned, it will be more like 100 years.) The one that is so damaged that skin cancer rates have tripled and quadrupled? The one that scientists like Molina and Rowland (I had the great honor of hearing him speak two years before he won the Nobel for his work on CFCs) have been trying to warn us about since NINETEEN SEVENTY-FOUR!? (That's right, since the year I was born. That's how long we have known about this and done very little while the problem has grown worse.)
And before someone whines about how little their Primatene contributes to the problem, EVERY molecule of a CFC destroys MILLIONS of molecules of ozone -- PER MINUTE. (And persists in the atmosphere for decades.) Each puff of Primatene may mean an extra case (or ten) of skin cancer.
People die of that -- in spite of medical attention -- more often than (treated) asthma, I believe.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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quote:care about the actual ozone layer. You know, the one that is already so damaged that if we stopped using all CFCs this very second, it would take about 50-75 years to fix itself?
Actually, the best estimate I've seen indicate that even if we stop using all CFCs immediately, the ozone layer will continue to get worse for around 50 years. It will be closer to 200 - 300 years before it heals itself. This is because it takes 30-50 years for CFC released on the surface to make it into the stratosphere. The CFC half lives in the atmosphere extended upt to around 300 years. If people are interested, I can probably find the exact numbers for different compounds.
Currently 1 american dies every minute from skin cancer. This isn't some abstract philosophical concern from radical environmentalists. It is a serious problem.
Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000
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I'm worried about this situation with my asthmatic cat, too. Cats have to take inhalants in a special way. I have an inhalant chamber with a little kitty face mask that I have to hold up to her face while I spray the inhalant into the other end of the chamber.
When they reformulated the medicine she was on, we also had a real problem which isn't solved yet.
The medicine is very expensive, but she definitely needs it to live. Saying "just don't run out" ignores the extra difficulties of patients with no insurance who are struggling to pay for food and heating bills. It may not be very easy to find an extra $250 to keep a spare cannister of FloVent around the house.
We managed to change from the 110 to the 220 mcg (which they still had in the old type) last time, though it costs more per container. It's actually cheaper per use. I don't know what we will do when they convert it over as well. I should talk to my vet about that.
I really think all meds should be OTC. I think laws protecting people from themselves are bound to fail.
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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They do have means of getting inhaled drugs into babies and young children, ak. I would think that those methods would also work on cats? There are probably some methods available you don't know about yet.
I know you always think everything should be otc, and the very thought always horrifies me. Based on the Very Dumb things I've seen patients do, even by well educated patients who just had one on one thorough explanations about their drugs from their doctors, I think having everything otc would be a total disaster.
Posts: 1014 | Registered: Jul 2005
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My husband's former employer rigged a terrarium into a kind of gas chamber to get inhaled meds into kitties.
Works great.
They call it "the box." When they can't keep a mask on a cat, as long as it's stable enough, they go, "Okay, into the box with you!"
Of course, once my husband was giving our cat a pedicure on his lunch break, and he got bitten. KPC does not tolerate that from his own cat. So I heard later that he got really mad and yelled, "That's it, you're going in the box!" Doped him up and did the pedicure asleep.
The doctor was like, "Don't say anything, your own pets always make you madder" to the assistant who witnessed this. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Based on the Very Dumb things I've seen patients do, even by well educated patients who just had one on one thorough explanations about their drugs from their doctors, I think having everything otc would be a total disaster.
Of course, it could be an Alternative Method of Population Control... Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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