posted
My students have brought up the subject of religion on several occasions in class. I have let them talk a little but I don't let them get too deep into it in a classroom setting. Also they know my personal beliefs but want to ask even more probing questions about faith, which I would be more than happy to answer if I were not their teacher. So they have suggested that I start a faith-based club on campus. I would really like to do that but my principal certainly would not have my back if anything brown and smelly were to hit the fan.
What I have in mind is a faith seeking, question and answer type thing, not a let-me-push-my-Jesus-on-you attack situation. The kids are mainly asking questions about Christianity and Catholicism since those are the predominant faiths represented in my classes but if a kid had a question on another faith, I would certainly try to help them research that as well. I would schedule meetings once a week during lunch (the kids would brown bag it that day) and we could just sit around and talk. I know I am well within my rights to do something before or after school but that would exclude many kids with transportation issues so I really want to do it during the school day. I don't think I will have a huge problem with the school or parents but I want to get my legal ducks in a row before I try to hold any kind of meeting. I would just ask my principal but he is not the kind of guy I can brainstorm with. I need to just present the plan and go with it rather than have him help me with it. So here I am. I have no idea where to start looking for whether or not I am allowed to do something like this. What do you think?
posted
If it is going to be done through the school and your are at a public school, I would not be in charge of the program or talk about it (religion). You are in a position of trust/authority/power over the students. A disgruntled student could easily try to use your religious discussion to get you in trouble if s/he is upset with you for any reason.
Your faith/belief system will shine through these discussions and students may want to emulate you to get your approval. I don't think this is a bad thing--student should have honest role-models. By introducing your faith into the role-model aspect of your job, I think you will get stung.
If you have guest speakers from various religions or have someoe else moderate it (who is not a teacher--maybe a teacher's aid), I think it is a swell idea.
posted
You'll want to look at your school district policies. Often organizations like this can be sponsored by a teacher, but they must be led by the students. In the school district I teach in (and the last one I taught in) it would be much more likely that this would be approved if the students proposed it and the meetings were led by students. A teacher was in the room at all times, but the students had to run the program.
Fellowship of Christian Athletes (http://www.fca.org) might be something to consider if you need a formal affiliation organization - it's a faith-based organization that is often found in schools. Members don't need to be athletes to participate, and the sponsor doesn't need to be a coach. In my area, FCA is often just an official title for a group like you've described.
The equal access act would allow students to gather during lunch for this type of meeting.
quote: The Equal Access Act – from Student Rights in the Public Schools
The Equal Access Act is designed to ensure that, consistent with the First Amendment, student religious activities are accorded the same access to public school facilities as are student secular activities. Based on decisions of the Federal courts, as well as its interpretations of the Act, the Department of Justice has advised that the Act should be interpreted as providing, among other things, that:
General provisions: Student religious groups at public secondary schools have the same right of access to school facilities as is enjoyed by other comparable student groups. Under the Equal Access Act, a school receiving Federal funds that allows one or more student noncurriculum-related clubs to meet on its premises during noninstructional time may not refuse access to student religious groups.
Prayer services and worship exercises covered: A meeting, as defined and protected by the Equal Access Act, may include a prayer service, Bible reading, or other worship exercise.
Equal access to means of publicizing meetings: A school receiving Federal funds must allow student groups meeting under the Act to use the school media - including the public address system, the school newspaper, and the school bulletin board - to announce their meetings on the same terms as other noncurriculum-related student groups are allowed to use the school media. Any policy concerning the use of school media must be applied to all noncurriculum-related student groups in a nondiscriminatory matter. Schools, however, may inform students that certain groups are not school sponsored.
Lunch-time and recess covered: A school creates a limited open forum under the Equal Access Act, triggering equal access rights for religious groups, when it allows students to meet during their lunch periods or other noninstructional time during the school day, as well as when it allows students to meet before and after the school day.
- The Department of Education Guidelines for Equal Access Act Revised May 1998.
posted
At my high school, we had the Falcon Christian Fellowship, run by students but with a teacher sponsor (as required for all officially recognized clubs.) Amusingly enough, the FCF's membership was mainly Mormons and Baptists, leadership was shared between them, and they all got along. No acrimony whatsoever. They had speakers (such as ministers) from many Christian denominations as well as from other faiths and on many viewpoints of many subjects (including evolution, creationism, abortion, and the role of science in Christianity.) No one pushed their particular religion, they all prayed together, and anyone could sit in on one of the lunchtime meetings-- you didn't have to be a member to come by and listen and discuss.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I'm not comfortable speaking to this - there's really no way to do so without giving legal advice.
You might want to check with The Rutherford Institute. (I'm posting this page not to say their content is correct, but to demonstrate their participation in such issues and provide contact info.)
Make it clear you haven't been denied anything, that your just looking to see what the school must provide in terms of equal access and what kind of participation you could have.
posted
I think this is a terrible idea. I think you're crazy for considering it. I think it can only end badly for you. And if I were you, I'd just forget it.
Seriously.
How old did you say the kids you teach are?
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posted
Why is it a bad idea? She's clearly investigating what the legal ramifications are, and there's no reason to doubt her intent or ability to comply with those limits.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Thanks Dag and Coccinelle especially for the the links. This is EXACTLY what I needed. I was planning on presenting it as a student-led group and I would just offer to be their sponsor. The kids would probably pitch the idea with support from me. A friend from my church recommended the ACLJ website tonight as well.
Iem, I hear you and I agree. If I do move forward, I will have to be very clear on saying this is what I believe but you need to check it out for yourself. Having speakers and things is a good idea in the future but for now this would be more of an informal discussion group.
TL, you give comments but provide no real basis for your thoughts. I am having to squelch the kids' discussions about religion in class so, per their request, I am trying to find a way to allow them a place to explore answers. We have FCA on our campus but evidently it is not providing the answers they are looking for even though I hold the sponsor in high regard. I teach middle school and am thrilled that kids are questioning religion rather than acting like a bunch of punks. I can see it ending badly for me too if I don't handle it right but I certainly don't feel "crazy for considering it."
Thanks to everyone for your comments. I will continue to explore and I'll let you know what happens.
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posted
You need to be a little careful with the Rutherford Institute. I have had some correspondence with them concerning workplace issues. In that context they are way out to lunch.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:If I do move forward, I will have to be very clear on saying this is what I believe but you need to check it out for yourself.
I know you said the kids already had some sense of your beliefs, but I would really suggest not saying anymore.
I'm in university and one of my professors is Wiccan. She's a very nice and helpful teacher, which has awkwardly afforded her a fanclub of students looking for a 'mentor.' Not that Wiccan is bad, but I've seen alot of students take it up as a way of trying to get her to like them more. We're talking students who are 20-something and they still don't know better.
On the other hand, I have a philosophy professor who specializes in religion. I took a "World Religions" class with his last semester and a "Philosophy of Religions" class with him now. Despite probably being asked several times a week, he never divulged his own faith. While its probably safe to theorize that he's Christian, as is the majority of this country, we know nothing about his denomination or individual beliefs. When asked he reminds us that he wants to provide information and criticisms of all belief systems equally and in an academic and intellectual manner. One couldn't even guess his beliefs by looking at what religious theories he supports or not. The result has been lively classroom discussion. No one fears judgement from him and we can count on him to be the reliable and informed voice for the 'other side,' no matter what side that is.
Also, from my years in public schools, it might have just been my state or my district, but teacher invovlement in religious organizations had to be kept to a minimum. They could sponsor but participation was limited. One of our Christian organizations had a morning prayer once a week around the flagpole and the sponsor and other faculty had to remain x-number of yards away and silent. While religious-participation and religious-study are not the same thing, it would probably be best that your involvement be more academic and less personal.
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I'd have to agree with Shanna here, that as much as possible you'd want to distance your actual beliefs from the discussion and focus more on the academic answers to the kid's questions.
I was lucky enough to go to a pretty open Catholic highschool, and my world religions teacher happened to be a rediculously well-educated and even-handed priest. I really value the fact that his class was taught so impartially, basically just discussing the main foundations and philosophies of most all the world's religions without pushing one or the other as right or wrong.
It would also be helpful in the area of equality to encourage the students to look at and discuss various other religions and possibly even secular philosophies. Even if the entire group is some denomination of Christian there is a lot to learn from looking at Taoism, Hindu, Shinto, Secular Humanism etc... and possibly if the group is rather homogeneous it would be all the more important to expose them to the other philosophies out there.
Along these lines it might also be possible to set the group up more as a philosophy discussion that talks a lot about religious philosophies, which can help with the political/legal issues I'd imagine. People will throw a lot less of a fuss if it's a philosophical debate club rather than a faith discussion group.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
My Dad and Brother are involved with FCA, and Coccinelle is right. The teachers are not allowed to lead the meetings, as long as the students do everything it is OK. They can even have guest speakers as long as the students are the ones who line them up.
I personal don't see a problem with a voluntary club to explore religion. As long as you kept it as an exploratory program and you're not pushing an agenda.
Shanna, that sounds like a cool class. I would have liked to had a class like it. The religion professor I had refused to accept possibility of anything miraculous and wouldn't listen to any point of view that disagreed.It didn't lead to many open discussions.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:TL, you give comments but provide no real basis for your thoughts. I am having to squelch the kids' discussions about religion in class so, per their request, I am trying to find a way to allow them a place to explore answers. We have FCA on our campus but evidently it is not providing the answers they are looking for even though I hold the sponsor in high regard. I teach middle school and am thrilled that kids are questioning religion rather than acting like a bunch of punks. I can see it ending badly for me too if I don't handle it right but I certainly don't feel "crazy for considering it."
I'll be as frank and succinct as possible. You're not qualified to provide children with answers to their religious questions.
Furthermore, I rather think you're under a moral obligation *not* to. Doing it anyway sounds reckless and unbelievably inappropriate.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:You're not qualified to provide children with answers to their religious questions.
Furthermore, I rather think you're under a moral obligation *not* to. Doing it anyway sounds reckless and unbelievably inappropriate.
WHAT?!?
I had a nice snarky response here but then I got curious and read some of your recent posts confirming that you, TL, have a history stirring up trouble in religious threads. Thanks (but no thanks) for your comments.
Again, sincere thanks to those who provided the links (and the warnings about them). That is what I needed. Posts: 1319 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
First of all I'd like to encourage you to proceed as the sponsor for this club. I think it's very valuable to give kids a forum to exchange ideas and questions about religion. But you should consider:
Clubs can have a life of their own, and this one may resolve itself in a direction you didn't originally intend or expect.
There's nothing wrong with a club that is devoted to a specific religion, as long as the kids are bringing the religion to school, and not the other way around. If the club resolves itself in that direction, then I'd have to agree with TL's statement that you are morally obligated not to provide answers, but limit yourself to providing direction. Kind of like a librarian points out where students can do their own research.
If the club takes on the flavor of a comparative religions class, I think you are in a much better position to get directly involved in the discussion, as long as you're merely providing students with alternate viewpoints to stimulate thought and discussion.
Bear in mind that the kids are allowed to express their views, including attempts to evangelize. But if any of the kids use the club as a base for evangelism, it puts you in a very difficult situation. The club may not be evangelizing, but the school population won't be able to tell the difference. That's the point where you'd have to draw the line between sponsor and participant.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Mandy, although it may be easier to dismiss me as a troll than to deal with the suggestion of you abrogating your moral obligations to children, I certainly do *not* have a history of stirring up trouble in religious threads. I can appreciate and respect you wanting to paint me with broad strokes -- I mean I see where that comes from. But it simply is not the reality.
I've offended you, and I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent, but to be honest it wasn't my intent *not* to, either. So I've been cold, and I've been blunt. And your reaction to me is my own fault, that's for sure.
But I think I'm making a legitimate point.
You're not qualified to provide children with answers to their religious questions.
Let me explain what I mean by this. The people in this thread who have posted about their positive experiences in religious courses at school? Well and good. But the teachers they're talking about, who were capable of creating those kinds of positive environments, they're people who have advanced degrees in religion and philosophy.
You don't have that kind of background. You don't have the same qualifications. You don't have the same training.
I think you're under a moral obligation NOT to try to provide children with answers to their religious questions because you're talking about middle-school-aged kids. Kids who are probably incapable of making fine distinctions between different kinds of truths. It seems to me that trying to find a way to teach kids about religion falls far outside the scope of your role as a teacher.
Your expertise is probably limited to one religion -- your own. And therefore any discussion about religion under the guise of openness can *only* be heavily lopsided in favor of the Church to which you belong.
Which is why it seems like SUCH a good idea -- such a very good idea -- to have a forum for such discussions to be governed by students, rather than by a teacher without the pre-requisite degrees, training, and understanding to keep her own views out of it, no matter how hard she might want to, or how well-intended she might be.
And since such a forum already exists at your school, there really is no need for you to step in and create another.
In all sincerity, please understand that you have had placed in you a public trust. It's a trust that I have no doubt is well-deserved and justly-earned. I see very clearly that you really only do want to do something positive and interesting for the kids.
And I appreciate that. I really do.
It just isn't your place. If the kids have questions that are going unanswered by whatever religious teaching you already have in place at the school, send them to their parents, or to their Bishop, or to their Priest, or to their Pastor, or to their Rabbi.
They should be getting that kind of instruction from their parents and churches. It just isn't your place, as a middle-school teacher in a public school, to say *anything* about religion to these kids.
You have my respect.
I think teachers play an important role in society.
Thank you for hearing my view with an open mind. I hope I didn't come across as being quite so mean this time.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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quote: There's nothing wrong with a club that is devoted to a specific religion, as long as the kids are bringing the religion to school, and not the other way around. If the club resolves itself in that direction, then I'd have to agree with TL's statement that you are morally obligated not to provide answers, but limit yourself to providing direction. Kind of like a librarian points out where students can do their own research.
Glenn, Thank you for your comments. These are some of my own concerns as well. I am a pretty open-minded Christian in that I think everyone should have some kind of faith. Jesus happens to be what moves me but I think faith is such a personal thing that you have to explore and find what moves you. That is what I am trying to provide an opportunity for so I don't necessarily want the group to take a evangelical Christian stance.
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posted
TL, for what it's worth, I understand what you were saying and I agree. It's a thorny line to walk, that's for sure.
And I'm certain that both you and I wish MandyM and her students to experience good things in whatever they may do, together or separately. The reservations are about the structure, not the people. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
TL, you make some valid points that express why this is definately a touchy issue, but there are some definite flaws to the arguments.
1) You effectively state that one needs advanced degrees in theology and/or philosophy in order to speak on the subject to students. If this is the case why can MandyM teach on the theory of relativity without a PhD in Physics, and why can she teach social studies without a doctorate in Sociology and/or extensive experiences with other cultures serving in the peace corps and living in every major culture she plans on teaching about? While certainly a highly trained and educated expert would be the best source of information on religion they are not the only ones that can speak to children. And in fact it was suggested all around that the club involve outside speakers, likely theologians and philosophers with exactly the background you spoke of. Certainly this lack of specific training should encourage Mandy to not take as much of a driver's seat in the discussions, but shouldn't preclude her from helping inform her inquisitive students.
2) You speak as if anyone that believes something will definitively have some kind of agenda to evangelize their beliefs. However, I think it can definately be the case that a person can speak very near-to-fairly about other opposing ideas quite well. Now of course this is something to watch out for, but just because I'm Catholic doesn't mean I can't give a decent explanation of the basics behind any number of other religions and philosophies.
Take it a few different ways: 1) You're encouraging the students to do exactly what TL is suggesting in a roundabout way (go talk to their priest/bishop/rabbi/etc) by bringing in some of these figures and directing the more intense and/or faith-oriented discussions outside the club. 2) You're encouraging the students to develop skills in rhetoric by arguing fairly complex moral and philosophical issues.
I think the key is to approach the issue from not so much the directly religious side of things but more as a "history of religion" or "philosophy of religion."
TL is right that you probably shouldn't be part of their faith-lives, but I would honestly say it IS your job as a teacher to try to at least give the kids some background into what religions are out there, shaping the world as we know it.
This is an important issue that is all too often neglected in today's education systems, especially in districts that are largely homogeneous. Were it not for an active desire to learn about other religions on my own, and my private school theology classes I would probably only know anything about perhaps 3 or 4 christian religions, and have no knowledge of Judaism, Islam, Buddism, Taoism, Confucianism, Shinto, Hindu, Zoroastrianism etc... that's just the layout of the community I grew up in.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:You speak as if anyone that believes something will definitively have some kind of agenda to evangelize their beliefs.
I know that I'm generally suspicious of this, as all the "comparative religion" clubs I saw in my youth were ultimately just ways to promote a given brand of Christianity.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Tom, I see your point but these are kids already seeking answers to questions mostly about Christianity. If kids come in with questions about other religions that I know less about I will certainly help them find those answers as well partially because I don't want to make this about pushing a Christian agenda and partially because I think it is important to learn about many different beliefs before deciding on the one you buy into. Boy that was a long sentence. And I *am* pretty open minded since many Christians I know think believing in Jesus is the ONLY way to go and I don't. Maybe it is because I am a newer Christian who found my way on my own. I think having faith in something is important. It provides a peace and a hope that I didn't have when I was without faith.
TheGrimace, I agree about encouraging the kids to go to their parents and priests/bishops/ministers, ect... but I also think that if those people were providing the right answers for them, the kids wouldn't be asking me in the first place. I will still encourage them to seek out those people but I am willing to answer questions myself as well. Thanks for your well thought out comments. I appreciate your point of view.
If a kid came to me with a personal problem, I would not tell them to call the police or a psychiatrist because I am not qualified to help them. I would try to give them a shoulder to lean on and then help them seek out the answers they need. That is the job and role as a teacher. How is this any different?
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Student: "While some don't believe in God, most people do, and I believe that its important for everyone to have some kind of faith."
Atheist Parent: "Did you tell my child that its important for him to believe in God?!?"
I don't know, as an atheist, I would object to a Christian teacher leading a faith based discussion that involved my child. And most of the time with these things, if a student's parents request that they do not partake in the discussion, the other children wonder why, and there's a certain amount of stigma attached to it. Any time a student has to distance himself from the rest of the class, its not a good thing.
So I am uncomfortable with this whole idea.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Tom and Mandy, the way I see it is that more and more the official role of a teacher is straying further and further from the actions of a good person in order to be politically correct. i.e. as a good person you SHOULD lend the troubled kid a shoulder to cry on etc, but it seems like politics keep telling us that you can't do that because it's infringing on a parent's rights to comfort their kids, and you're somehow hitting on them and encouraging them to become homosexual, and you're claiming that God will help them (who may or may not exist) and you're not qualified to comfort them because you haven't been board certified as a school counsellor, and somehow you're probably turning them into a communist as well...
That's really the core issue here is that too often now the rules prevent people from doing the right and natural thing because of some extreme cases that may have happened or might happen in the future.
and Mandy, as for sending the kids to their pastors etc... I think most of the time it's not necessarily that they aren't getting their questions answered so much as they don't seek out those individuals. In general you teacher is significantly more accessible than your minister etc as a kid. Now I'm not saying that you can't fill in some of those gaps, but a big part should also be to encourage them that ministers etc are generally quite helpful and approachable.
P.S. Thanks for the words of appreciation.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I don't like the lunch time idea. There should be a way for you to answer their questions simply and honestly in class without unduly offending any reasonable parent of any other faith.
I wonder if dkw is reading this thread. She is a preacher and I'm not even Christian, and I'd trust her to talk about her beliefs with my kids. As long as you do it with clarity, humility, and respect, I think you should be able to do it in the openly.
My big fear would be that most people aren't mature enough in their faith to answer kids questions without crossing a line into evangelism.
posted
Speaking of listening to kids' problems.. I read someone's letter to Dear Abby in an archive a while back (I have no idea where it is), and they mentioned, in response to an older letter, that when a student wants to talk to her and asks her to promise not to tell, she says she can't promise that, and the student always decides to tell her anyway. That way, she's not betraying a confidence by telling whoever she needs to to help the child.
I think telling a teacher not to listen at all would drastically reduce the number of people abused children and children with other problems who feel have someone they feel comfortable telling. The teacher can listen, and then direct them to the right person or counselor, or call HR or whatever they need to do. I don't think teachers should give advice, but they certainly should be able to listen.
Posts: 2880 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Here's a question. Would the Christians at hatrack be comfortable with an atheist (with no special education in religious studies) leading a discussion group on faith issues that your child was attending?
posted
That's a good question, Xavier. My ex-husband's stepson is 12. My ex-husband and his wife are very religious, fundamentalist Protestant, and it is very important to them that all the children are raised in their faith. The stepson (Christopher) is part of the gang, and so often when I'm doing stuff with my kids, he is a part of the activities. He's smart, funny, and thinks I'm great. He wants my approval.
I'm not religious, and Christopher knows this. He has a lot of questions. "Can a person be a good person if they are not Christian?", etc.
I feel like I have to be extremely careful. Not because I don't want to make his mom mad, but because I have a certain amount of power in such a conversation. I COULD sway him. And I don't feel like I have the right to do so. So I answer honestly when I can and I answer with "I think that's something you should ask your mom, sweetie," when it skates closer to some invisible line.
So what is my responsibility here? When his mom lets him come along with us, she's trusting me with his well-being.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:You effectively state that one needs advanced degrees in theology and/or philosophy in order to speak on the subject to students. If this is the case why can MandyM teach on the theory of relativity without a PhD in Physics, and why can she teach social studies without a doctorate in Sociology and/or extensive experiences with other cultures serving in the peace corps and living in every major culture she plans on teaching about?
The difference of course is that she's had *some* training teaching the classes she's assigned. A curriculum from the state, a manual, a certificate -- *something.*
It sounds like she's going off the map with religion.
That's an assumption that might be wrong.
I notice Mandy seems to have made the decision to ignore me, which makes me a little sad, I like her, but that's the breaks.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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The problem with this issue is that it's all subjective and grey area walking the line etc...
Personally: I would feel perfectly comfortable with an Atheist leading the discussion as long as I felt they were 1) well informed of most/all the options (at least the major religions and philosophies) 2) open minded about all (were honestly trying not to push their beliefs over others discussed) 3) reasonable and logical people
I'd probably want to sit in on a few of these discussions etc to make this kind of judgement, and certainly talk to my kids about what they're discussing (though if I were doing this to start with they might not feel the need to join such a club).
TL, I see your point, I guess I'm still kinda taking issue with it because I found, in my highschool and college experience, that discussion groups led by completely untrained people on these same discussions were very stimulating, helpful and just generally good. And I feel personally that with just a few odd classes and a good general background from personal experience that I would be a decent person to talk about these subjects impartially even though I have not recieved any certificates etc. But again, someone else might not feel the same way about me, and I may be flat-out-wrong about some things...
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: Kid: "Teacher, is there a God?"
Student: "While some don't believe in God, most people do, and I believe that its important for everyone to have some kind of faith."
Atheist Parent: "Did you tell my child that its important for him to believe in God?!?"
Kid: "Teacher, are we the result of evolution"
Teacher: "The fossil evidence strongly supports that theory. Understanding evolution is an important part of education"
Creationist Parent: "Did you tell my child that its important for him to believe in evolution!?"
This wasn't written snarkily, it's just to illustrate that giving our children over to teachers means inherently we allow some influence over them by people with whom we might not agree. It's just part of being a community, and it's why lots of parents choose to home-school when they disagree strenuously with the community in which they find themselves.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
As a Christian without any kids I would like to think I would be OK with and atheist leading a discussion about faith as long as he wasn't pushing an agenda. And even if he was, I would also hope I would have the type of relationship where I could talk to my kids about my faith, answer their questions and explain to them where I agree/disagree and why. If I could answer them myself I would help them find the answer.
Of course being able to handle such issues would depend on the maturity of the kids.
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Tom, of course. I am required by law to report things of that nature. But I am not going to cut a kid off in mid-complaint and shuffle them off to the counselor or policeman's office because I have not been trained to deal with a kid considering suicide or one that has been raped or is cutting or starving herself (all things that have happened this year). I am going to let them talk awhile and then take them down there myself. They know that whenever I hear of anything like that, I act on it; I never just blow them off like others sometimes do.
I guess I should also mention that I am the Peer Assistance and Leadership teacher as well, which is a national leadership program. The kids in that class are specially selected and trained to mentor kids in both my grade levels and the elementary schools. Those kids are also taught that confidentiality means nothing if kids are hurting themselves or others, if someone is hurting them, or they are breaking the law. We still have kids who want and need help tell us stuff just because they know we will help them. We always involve the nurse or the counselor or the police or DFS or whoever. We are simply the initial point of contact. So while I have not been extensively trained in those crisis areas, I have had some. Katarain, I agree with you in that kids have to have someone to go to. We have taught kids in our society that if someone is hurting them, talk to a teacher, a pastor, or someone they trust. If I am that someone, great! At least they told someone who got them some help.
quote:Student: "While some don't believe in God, most people do, and I believe that its important for everyone to have some kind of faith."
Atheist Parent: "Did you tell my child that its important for him to believe in God?!?"
I don't know, as an atheist, I would object to a Christian teacher leading a faith based discussion that involved my child. And most of the time with these things, if a student's parents request that they do not partake in the discussion, the other children wonder why, and there's a certain amount of stigma attached to it. Any time a student has to distance himself from the rest of the class, its not a good thing.
So I am uncomfortable with this whole idea.
Why would you be upset at the teacher if another student said that? Because there was a religious discussion in the classroom or because you meant that was the teacher's response?
I guess I should clarify that I wouldn't say that statement in that way to a kid in my class or in the club I am thinking of sponsoring. I would never tell kids that their parents are wrong. Also the child of an atheist would have to choose to come to a meeting to get any kind of comment similar to that at all so wouldn't you be mad at your kid for going, not the teacher for talking to him? The faith based discussion is outside of class time and OPTIONAL for all students. I would not be forcing your child to listen. On the flip side, we have had three parents complain recently about comments atheist teachers have made in class and one parent moved her kid out of the offending teacher's class for that reason (I got the kid and I think it was not a good decision on the part of the parent). I am not talking about comments in class; I am trying to stop the comments made during class time when kids don't have a choice to be there. The kids would be giving up their personal free time to discuss faith. That shows me it must be pretty important to them if they are willing to give up social time to seek answers.
Irami, I see your point but not everyone thinks so. As a Christian, I would not mind a teacher of another faith, or no faith, to expose my child to something that opposes my beliefs. I am teaching my child my beliefs but ultimately, she will have to choose for herself. I think the more she is exposed to, the more informed she will be when she makes that decision. I would certainly want my child to share her thoughts and experiences with me so I could tell her what I think too.(Xavier, that applies to your question as well I think)
Sharpie, that is a tough one. Maybe you could talk to his mom and see what she says. Also there is nothing wrong with saying that you are uncomfortable contradicting what his parents believe, but that this is what you believe. As a Christian parent, that would not offend me if an atheist or someone from a different faith said that to my child. But I can still see that going badly so I think you are right to be concerned.
TL, I am not ignoring you. I am reading your posts but I don't want to engage in a battle with you. You think I am wrong and I think you are wrong and I think you make too many assumptions. I HAVE been trained to work with youth in regard to Christian studies. I am one of the youth group leaders at my church and I have attended trainings and am pretty well read on the subject.
Senoj, EXACTLY! You know what I think is funny is that on my campus, both the science teachers who teach evolution are Christians.
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quote:You: I HAVE been trained to work with youth in regard to Christian studies. I am one of the youth group leaders at my church and I have attended trainings and am pretty well read on the subject.
That doesn't contradict what I said.
quote:Me: Your expertise is probably limited to one religion -- your own. And therefore any discussion about religion under the guise of openness can *only* be heavily lopsided in favor of the Church to which you belong.
And Mandy, I have no interest in *battling*.
I felt that mine was a viewpoint you needed to consider. This is serious stuff.
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quote:You know what I think is funny is that on my campus, both the science teachers who teach evolution are Christians.
I think it's a shame this is even seen as a possible contradiction.
quote: Here's a question. Would the Christians at hatrack be comfortable with an atheist (with no special education in religious studies) leading a discussion group on faith issues that your child was attending?
These exchanges are at the root of why I think it's so valuable to have this kind of club at school or elsewhere. The Boy Scouts won't let atheists in, because they are afraid that atheists might try to undermine the faith of other scouts. Atheists don't trust Christians to talk about their belief without evangelizing. And so on... (cue Tom Lehrer)
I took a comparative religions class at a state college (philosophy 111), and I was told that since it was a class on religion, I wasn't entitled to talk about atheism for my final presentation. I did anyway, and was graded down for it(it even said so on the grade sheet).
Oddly enough, I was usually the one who wound up helping boys in my son's BSA troop deal with their religious requirements. One of them was serving as the "Chaplain aide" at the request of his father, because religion was very important to him. He was supposed to lead other scouts in a ceremony with the rest of our troop, because we were hosting the camporee. The boy was concerned about the fact that there might be non-christians present, and how to do a ceremony that didn't offend them. Our whole troop got into the discussion, and I got pulled in by a friend of my son's, who knew that I'd taken the comparative religions course.
In many ways I was glad the discussion took place. It was very productive, and the kids got a lot out of it. The thing that ticks me off is that all the way through I was conscious of the fact that if I slipped and said the wrong thing, I could get kicked out of the scouts. In the end the boy's father thanked me and complimented me on my ability to make the Hindu concept of Brahma compatible with the Christian God, which wound up being the basis of the kid's speech.
So TL, was I qualified to participate/lead that discussion?
I also believe that we have to have faith - in each other. We've got to be willing to recognise that just because we don't agree with someone else's viewpoint doesn't mean that that person is trying to hurt us, or our kids. I'd like to be trusted to discuss issues of religion and philosophy without having to hide my atheism. In return I've got to trust theists to share their views in an open discussion. That would be a pretty good trade if it happened, but I get tired of doing it unilaterally.
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