posted
My partner teaches in a public school on the west side of Chicago. She's one of 4 white teachers in the school.
Today, she was trying to get an extremely disruptive girl to quiet down, and the girl looks her straight in the eye and says, "I hate white people."
That's not the racism I'm talking about. Kids are kids. They learn such things from adults. And when she said this, there was another teacher in the room as well. And he was black. And he didn't say a word. Didn't even look uncomfortable.
And an entire classroom full of students learned a very important lesson. It's okay to be a racist pile of dirt, so long as it's directed at evil white people.
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posted
I had a black girl (college age) tell me last weekend that white people all look related to her. She said that me and my friend looked like brothers, or, at the very least, cousins. We don't.
I asked her what would happen to me if I said that same thing about black people. She said I would be a racist. But she wasn't. I didn't even have the energy to fight it out.
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posted
I hesitate to post this, because it's second hand information, but since multiple people have related it to me, all consistantly, I'll procede.
According to a sociology professor who was/is teaching sociology of racism at the UW, racial minorities can't be racist. This is because racism is discrimination on the basis of race as an institution by the majority to suppress the minority. Minorities can only discriminatory.
I guess, at worst, I could only be half racist. Watch out, I'd be a pretty ornery rac.
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What if the minority is a minority nationally but nor locally? In this example, only 4 white people at the school, therefore the white teacher is locally in the minority.
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There's no such thing as reverse discrimination, it's just plain old discrimination.
Anyone who says different is trying to smokescreen the issue or defend themselves without having to actually address the issue.
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posted
I'm truly sorry this happened to your partner.
All the reasons we could give for why racism persists among minorities are just academic in the face of the hurt one feels right after experiencing it.
-o-
(What I'm about to say is not meant to be a counterpoint or to "compete" with how hurt she must feel--it cannot begin to. But this hurt me a little bit tonight--I seem to be in an easily hurt mood tonight anyway--and this thread seems like a decent enough place to share it.)
At the end of rehearsal (for Fiddler) tonight, I mentioned to a cast-mate who is a retired math teacher that tomorrow we're having Multicultural Day, in which, instead of the regular classes, we will have organized, supervised activities that highlight and celebrate all of the eighty-odd nationalities that form the backgrounds of our students--games, performances, food, demonstrations, dancing, student presenters with geographical and historical information on each country. He growled and said this was the sort of stupid thing that was ruining education. I sympathize with his predisposition, because I think in education we do a lot of stuff because it's trendy, politically correct, and good PR, but I told him that, despite my initial skepticism, when we started this "tradition" last year, I was pleasantly surprised by what a positive and educational experience it was, and with the strides it made to break down barriers among our students. He reiterated his opinion that it was stupid, and said, "you're in America. Be an American. None of this hyphenated crap." It was clear that he thought not only that this was a waste of time--which I could respect, if not agree with in this case--but that wanting to hold on to one's traditions, being proud of one's heritage, and holding on to one's culture made one--or rather, me--a bad American. Damn it! I speak and write English at least as well as any American I've ever met. I know American history as well as or better than an average American. I vote. I pay taxes. I believe in the American dream, and I'm proud of the acomplishments of the United States. Hell, I even like baseball, and I tolerate apple pie.
Why is it necessary for me to repudiate my roots to be a good American?
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I think in that context, Icarus, he meant that people's roots shouldn't be made a big deal, or have it required for other people to recognize them if they don't want to. Why should someone celebrate somebody else's African or Indian or Asian roots when they are none of the above?
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You only TOLERATE apple pie? You should be expelled from the nation immediately! True Americans LOVE apple pie.
I tend to agree with him on the hyphenated thing though. I don't call myself French Canadian-American, even though I'm technically only a second generation full blooded American. My grandpa moved here from Quebec (or PEI, I can't remember which at the moment) when he was a kid. I'm fascinated with the roots of my family, and older family members have traced the French Canadian side of my family all the way back to the Loire valley in France in the 17th century.
No one wants me to give that up, but at the same time, wouldn't it be a bit silly if EVERYONE walked around calling themselves "Dutch-American" or "English-American" or "Russian-American" or "Nigerian-American" so on and so forth American. No one is saying to forget where you come from, or to deny you came from anywhere else. No one is claiming that American ISN'T a nation of immigrants.
I think, especially with older people, they just think the focus should be on what makes us all the same, that we're all Americans. Pulled from different threads, but woven together to create a unique fabric of life. Don't forget the threads, but also don't put them above the cloth. I think that's the crux of the argument.
Having said that, I see absolutely no problem with a multi-cultural day. It sounds like fun, and it's a way for kids to celebrate what makes them unique without having to suffer a backlash. Or at least, it should be.
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posted
Ginol, it's an educational event. If you're going to live in a country of immigrants, it seems not unreasonable to know a bit about their backgrounds.
EDIT TO ADD: And this is a totally non-threatening way to bring it about. Nobody is being forced to memorize anything, there is no test. All the kids have to do is visit each area and experience what there is to experience. Food, games, song, dance--what's wrong with this?
And this event, last year, already has had the tangible result of making kids more likely to make friends across ethnic lines.
Our diversity can divide us or it can enrich us.
-o-
I do refer to myself both as a latino and as a Cuban-American. It would be ridiculous for people to do this whose immigrant roots are so far back in their ancestry that they don't know jack about the culture, don't speak the language, and are in no way still connected to that background. But I'm a first generation American. My first language was Spanish, and the Cuban culture is still very much alive in me. I get discriminated against all the time on the basis of my name alone--if I have to put up with the bad side of being a minority, why the heck shouldn't I take pride in all that's good about my background? My point, again, is how am I any less American if I'm also something else?! It's not a zero-sum game!
EDIT: Blasted icons. I have no trouble parsing words, but my brain does not correctly process those damn images. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I do refer to myself both as a latino and as a Cuban-American. It would be ridiculous for people to do this whose immigrant roots are so far back in their ancestry that they don't know jack about the culture, don't speak the language, and are in no way still connected to that background. But I'm a first generation American. My first language was Spanish, and the Cuban culture is still very much alive in me. I get discriminated against all the time on the basis of my name alone--if I have to put up with the bad side of being a minority, why the heck shouldn't I take pride in all that's good about my background? My point, again, is how am I any less American if I'm also something else?! It's not a zero-sum game!
I agree, I think, but I'd like some clarification.
I'm guessing you think the phrase/name "African-American" is ridiculous correct?
Further, I'm curious as to how far this goes. I speak French, not fluently, but well enough to get by (though I can't write it worth crap, but that's a separate issues) at family reunions and when I'm in predominantly French speaking parts of Canada. I know more about my family history than some immigrant families can trace their lineage back, and there are several cultural traditions that go way back in the family that are still very much alive with my family that is still living.
Would it makes sense for me to describe myself as French American or French Canadian American? Despite the ridicule I'd probably get for doing so.
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posted
I think any people or individual should be able to choose their own label and have it respected. I know blacks who don't like to be called African Americans, and African Americans who don't like to be called blacks. I try to be sensitive to their individual preferences when I figure them out, and count on them to trust my good intentions up until that point. Along the same vein, I know a lot of latinos who hate the term Hispanic, but I personally am not one of them. I'm not actually hung up on terms, beyond thinking that I should try to accomodate people in such a simple thing, if I reasonably can. In my speech I use the phrases African-American and latino as defaults, until I know better, because in my experience, it seems to be the majority preference within each respective minority group. As for you, it would make sense for you to describe yourself as what you feel like. And insofar as I could remember, I would try to acknowledge that choice.
I don't think anybody should get offended with anybody who mistakenly uses the wrong label, if there is no intention to denigrate. I think it would be reasonable, however, to be offended if somebody who initially had goodwill willfully ignores your stated preference because they think they know better than you what is appropriate.
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quote:According to a sociology professor who was/is teaching sociology of racism at the UW, racial minorities can't be racist. This is because racism is discrimination on the basis of race as an institution by the majority to suppress the minority.
Yet another example of misdefining words in order to make false things true, whether knowing or unknowingly.
Racism is wrongly judging people based on their race. Whether it is by the majority or minority makes no difference - unless you are trying to justify racism done by minorities by defining it out of existence.
Also, if there are only 4 white teachers in the school, it's pretty clear she IS in the minority in that particular environment.
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That's a perfectly acceptable point of view and stance on the issue.
And while I'd never choose to label myself something that specific, it's nice to know I wouldn't be ridiculed (by you at least) for it.
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starLisa, I apologize for derailing your thread. I didn't mean to do so; I only meant to vent my own frustration on a tangentially related issue.
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posted
Lisa, what an unfortunate lesson to learn in school. Were I in your parnter's place, I'm not sure how I would handle the situation. Probably someone would be getting detention, or writing an essay on tolerance and respect. Or writing an essay while in detention.
I couldn't just let it go, though.
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posted
Could I visit the land of awesome? I have to get some work in on developing some of my awesome abilities and if I could visit, I'm sure people would respond to me with new levels of awe.
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posted
I can't stand racism. I can't stand sexism either. I hate being at the shorter end of the stick on both issues. I'm a girl from a minority. It hasn't gotten to me, I've never felt discriminated against, but it just sucks knowing that I have less opportunities than white males. I don't hate white men, I just hate the power they have.
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quote:What if the minority is a minority nationally but nor locally? In this example, only 4 white people at the school, therefore the white teacher is locally in the minority.
Good point. I'm not sure how that'd go over. It's stupid either way. ------------------------ Lisa, I'm curious as to what age group your partner was dealing with.
Also, what recourse, if any, did your partner take? If I were a teacher in such a situation, I'd probably have said something like, "I don't accept racists in my classroom. You can leave now." Then again, I don't know what policies the school has, or what the politics would end up being like and I have no educational training, so take that with a good handful of salt.
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posted
The sarcasm in side me would probably want to say something like "well we're not too fond of you either," but that's too callous, and quite frankly would be a bold faced law, just trying to intentionally beat the person down.
With some thought, I'd probably ask her to explain her feelings. Racism should be challenged I think, in a setting like that. Words in the classroom, from an authority figure can be a powerful influence, and it looks like that girl could use a positive one. Or at the very least an honest discussion of the subject without major predjudice or bias.
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posted
I'd have a really hard time knowing what to say in a situation like that. I feel like calling her out and saying I don't allow racists in my classroom is a bit extreme, and would not have good results at all. It would probably get the teacher in a lot of trouble.
Maybe saying something like, "I know you're upset, but not all people are the same simply because they have the same skin color, or eye color, or are tall or short or somewhere in between. I know you would be upset if a white girl said that she hated all black people, because you know that is unfair, because all people are different. Now let's take a few minutes to calm down, and when you're feeling better, you can tell me what's really bothering you, and we can see what we can do to fix it."
But then, that would be hard to come up with on the spot, and it might not work anyway...
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posted
Just out of pure curiousity, do people in other countries hyphenate as well? African-Canadian? American-British? African-French? Chilean-Chinese? I honestly have no idea and I am wondering if the hyphen thing is a uniquely American thing or if it is a world wide thing?
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posted
Of course, Canada has a larger percentage of visible minorities than the US, so a "true Canadian" would have even more hyphens. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: Of course, a TRUE American...
True? As opposed to the lying ones?
I think that one of the cool things about America is that we can incorporate people from all over the planet and that they can all be "True Americans". I don't distinguish the trueness of an American based on his ancestry.
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posted
True Americans, meaning native-Americans? Or, or...the inhabitants or ancient Arnor and Gondor (you see...these lands of Middle-Earth are supposed to evolve into North America, you know)?
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posted
Surprised? Oh come on... you should know the use of misdefinitions or inconsistent definitions to make an argument is one of the things I especially like to complain about! (If I only had a dime for every thread based on a disagreement in definitions...)
quote:It hasn't gotten to me, I've never felt discriminated against, but it just sucks knowing that I have less opportunities than white males. I don't hate white men, I just hate the power they have.
I don't think I've ever recieved any opportunities because I am white or because I'm a male.
Anyone who got the grades in high school that I did would get into the college I did, and anyone who did as well at college in the major I did would have gotten the job I did.
I did have a better high school education than kids in the inner city schools would have recieved on average, but that's because of geography and economy, not race or sex. So my opportunities were available not because I was a white male, but because my family was middle class. The black/asian/hispanic/other students in my high school didn't do any better or worse than the white kids did, because they were raised in middle class families as well (Girls, on average, actually tended to do a little better grade wise). I'd say the only difference between my opportunities and those of the students of other races were that they had more college scholarships available than I did . I think people tribute a lot of things to race that are really economic problems.
I'm not sure what kind of "power" I have inherently as a white male. I certainly don't feel very powerful. I would agree that as a bloc, white males have considerable power. I don't think that an individual middle class white male has inherently any more power than an individual middle class black woman, assuming all else is equal between them.
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: I hesitate to post this, because it's second hand information, but since multiple people have related it to me, all consistantly, I'll procede.
According to a sociology professor who was/is teaching sociology of racism at the UW, racial minorities can't be racist. This is because racism is discrimination on the basis of race as an institution by the majority to suppress the minority. Minorities can only discriminatory.
I've been told that as well. It's a statement that is itself racist. It amounts to "He hit me first!", or "Two wrongs make a right." It's nonsense.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I do refer to myself both as a latino and as a Cuban-American. It would be ridiculous for people to do this whose immigrant roots are so far back in their ancestry that they don't know jack about the culture, don't speak the language, and are in no way still connected to that background. But I'm a first generation American. My first language was Spanish, and the Cuban culture is still very much alive in me. I get discriminated against all the time on the basis of my name alone--if I have to put up with the bad side of being a minority, why the heck shouldn't I take pride in all that's good about my background? My point, again, is how am I any less American if I'm also something else?! It's not a zero-sum game!
I agree, I think, but I'd like some clarification.
I'm guessing you think the phrase/name "African-American" is ridiculous correct?
Further, I'm curious as to how far this goes. I speak French, not fluently, but well enough to get by (though I can't write it worth crap, but that's a separate issues) at family reunions and when I'm in predominantly French speaking parts of Canada. I know more about my family history than some immigrant families can trace their lineage back, and there are several cultural traditions that go way back in the family that are still very much alive with my family that is still living.
Would it makes sense for me to describe myself as French American or French Canadian American? Despite the ridicule I'd probably get for doing so.
Um... I think that'd "Franco-American". Like Spaghettios.
Apologies if that was racist. Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Lisa, what an unfortunate lesson to learn in school. Were I in your parnter's place, I'm not sure how I would handle the situation. Probably someone would be getting detention, or writing an essay on tolerance and respect. Or writing an essay while in detention.
I couldn't just let it go, though.
Well, Havah isn't me. She didn't say anything to the girl or to the other teacher. She said she was so aghast that he didn't say anything that she couldn't think of anything to say herself. I think there may have been some physical fear in the mix, actually.
I would have walked up to the girl and made her repeat it. Louder. And then louder again. Until we had everyone's attention. Then I would said, "Racists have no place here," and made her stand in the corner (one of the very few types of discipline still allowable in these crazy days).
Which, I guess, is one of the reasons I'm not a middle school teacher.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You mean middle to upper class white men.
Ahem. Middle to upperclass heterosexual Christian white men whose families have been in the US for over a century.
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quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Lisa, I'm curious as to what age group your partner was dealing with.
I don't know how old the other teacher was.
Oh, you mean the children? Middle schoolers. Which is why my anger and disgust is primarily focused on the racist imbecile other teacher.
quote:Originally posted by Juxtapose: Also, what recourse, if any, did your partner take? If I were a teacher in such a situation, I'd probably have said something like, "I don't accept racists in my classroom. You can leave now."
At a Chicago public school? Surely you jest. She can't even suspend students, let alone kick them out of the classroom. "No Child Left Behind", remember?
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: The sarcasm in side me would probably want to say something like "well we're not too fond of you either," but that's too callous, and quite frankly would be a bold faced law, just trying to intentionally beat the person down.
How about, "That's nice. And I hate racists."
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quote:Originally posted by DarkKnight: Just out of pure curiousity, do people in other countries hyphenate as well? African-Canadian? American-British? African-French? Chilean-Chinese? I honestly have no idea and I am wondering if the hyphen thing is a uniquely American thing or if it is a world wide thing?
How about blacks who move to Africa. Are they African-Africans?
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1)Hyphenated labels are not the contstuct of citizens demanding an elevated role due to the luck of their birth. It isn't a gang of brats who decide one day, "Hey, if we call ourselves Brat-American's we could get better parking."
The hyphenated labels originally came, without the hyphens, from the majority and were forced on the minority. These perjoratives were usually course and ugly, so people in those minorities said, "If you are going to set us apart as different, the least we get is the chance to label ourselves."
I never realized this until I started debating the Christian roots of our country, and the political movement to highlight Christian history. Suddenly I realized that as a non-Christian, I would be a possibly picked on minority. What label would they give me? I chose Non-Christian-American, as being the least vulgar.
2) I have also heard the arguments that "Only White People can be Racists." I say, fine, don't use the term racist. Call them bigots and move on. I think that word has as much bite behind it as racist, and it sounds harsher.
3) Being Politicaly Correct is not about being political at all. Its about being polite. There is not one politically correct request that doesn't break down into respecting other people's wishes and treating them as they want to be treated. Its simply good manners. The majority of people who cry and complain about being forced to be politically correct are really demanding the right to be rude.
Don't get me wrong. Politcal Correctness can go to far. There are some who wish to draft it into law, full of dire punishments and fines. You can not put good manners into law. The punishments for breaking political correctness should be no worse, or no more lenient, than for breaking any of societies codes of good manners. A man who belches all day in public and swears with every second word does not need a prison to lock away his life in solitary confinement, nor a judge to take away money he is loosing by his bad manners.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: 3) Being Politicaly Correct is not about being political at all. Its about being polite.
It should be about being polite, but it's gone far beyond that, until it's become a weapon to be used against those who refuse to conform to the majority view.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You mean middle to upper class white men.
Ahem. Middle to upperclass heterosexual Christian white men whose families have been in the US for over a century.
Touché.
I'm curious though, what if one side of the family has been here for less than a hundred, and the other side for well over a hundred? Do you average them together?
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posted
"How about blacks who move to Africa. Are they African-Africans?"
Nope, blacks are 'Americans' to Africans because American blacks are noticibly culturally so. Usually, an American black is sufficiently geneticly-mixed that, in a close encounter, their features stand out of the local norm -- everywhere, not just a specific region -- nearly as much as an American white's.
I'm not sure whether any other nations still uses the word 'black' to describe people of subSaharanAfrican ancestry.
White Australians somewhat recently used 'black' as a label for those whose ancestors were in Australia before European colonization. However, an Australasian typically stands out more noticibly from most subSaharanAfricans than American blacks. Similarly, NewZealand's Polynesian Maoris.
As for Britain, I personally don't remember hearing or reading 'black' or 'African' in any recent reference specificly describing a UK citizen/resident/visitor/group of subSaharanAfrican ancestry. Nigerian/Jamaican/etc, yes. But not 'black' or 'African' except in reference to very specific American musicians. And in the past when usage was common, 'black' was used to describe nearly everyone who might stand out in a "typically English" crowd: an Italian-looking Italian, a French-looking Frenchman, an Arab; a Gypsy; LittleBlackSambo was about an Indian boy; the BlackIrish for those with fine black hair; Scottish Blacks, which seems to be a descriptive of a historical political affiliation; etc. Of those, I remember hearing/reading only of the Irish and the Scots being recently referred to with 'black'.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You mean middle to upper class white men.
Ahem. Middle to upperclass heterosexual Christian white men whose families have been in the US for over a century.
Touché.
I'm curious though, what if one side of the family has been here for less than a hundred, and the other side for well over a hundred? Do you average them together?
Miscegenation? You go with the lower class and lower it still some more. <brr...>
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You mean middle to upper class white men.
Ahem. Middle to upperclass heterosexual Christian white men whose families have been in the US for over a century.
Touché.
I'm curious though, what if one side of the family has been here for less than a hundred, and the other side for well over a hundred? Do you average them together?
Miscegenation? You go with the lower class and lower it still some more. <brr...>
It's not really a racial/caste issue. More a generational issue. I'm Western European through and through, but my dad's side of the family came to America a couple centuries (I think) before my mom's side, which just got here in the 20th.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I do refer to myself both as a latino and as a Cuban-American. It would be ridiculous for people to do this whose immigrant roots are so far back in their ancestry that they don't know jack about the culture, don't speak the language, and are in no way still connected to that background. But I'm a first generation American. My first language was Spanish, and the Cuban culture is still very much alive in me. I get discriminated against all the time on the basis of my name alone--if I have to put up with the bad side of being a minority, why the heck shouldn't I take pride in all that's good about my background? My point, again, is how am I any less American if I'm also something else?! It's not a zero-sum game!
Hey Icarus I'm not in on this discussion but I spotted your post, and it interested my analytical machine (my brain).
My family on my dad's side is actually 12th generation American. Our first ancestor arrived in the mid 16oos in Massachusets, and we moved slowly west over 3 centuries finally to the SF Bay Area. My mom's side is an unknown quantity, but we think we must be at least 8 generations in America on that side, but we don't even know where that part of the family comes from, the information is utterly lost to us. What am I then? Am I a native American? (I actually could be native American, we don't know). My father's side was from England, and probably from France before that, in the 14th century.
So when people talk about "where they're from," as people are like to do in a place like the bay area, and at my school UC Davis, I feel a little awkward, because my family comes from here in every sense that matters. When I say I'm maybe English, but alot of things, they want to know if my grandparents were from there, or what. I say no, we don't know of any part of the family that hasn't been here for three centuries, and that is a difficult thought for some people to digest. Alot of people like the idea of being FROM somewhere too, so that it distinguishes them from others in a special way, while they are all still Americans too. I don't get that, I just get American, and not the English pride or anything.
This is why every time somebody says, "All Americans are from somewhere," I think of how small a matter it is that four hundred years ago an ancestor lived in northern England somewhere at the family manor (its still there, I read). I have no connection to it that isn't a connection I made myself. Traveling in Europe this past summer I was occassionally asked where my family was "from," and people I suppose first meant where in the US, but when then ask where in Europe we originated. I found this interesting.
I was in Spain taking classes and a Spanish teacher asked where my Grandparents where from. I guess in her mind no-one has family ties going back over 3 generations here, so I explained and she found it fascinating. I thought though, that millions of Americans have lived here since then, so why do we seem so rare? Maybe its where I grew up.
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. I think people tribute a lot of things to race that are really economic problems. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
