posted
I don't usually dare start topics here but given the percentage of educated people, I thought someone might be able to help me.
I'll be graduating Spring 2007 with a BA in Liberal Arts, concentration in Humanities and Social Thought. Philosophy is my minor since our school doesn't offer it as a major, but I've taken enough of the right courses that its almost equivalent.
My college's focus is primarily getting students into graduate programs. Unfortunately, I had never planned to seek further education and am starting to realize that none of my courses have provided me with any practical knowledge or skills. My parents' idea of post-college life is getting an internship with a company and then spending the time to work myself up the ladder. This worked fine when I was an English major planning a career in editting and publishing. It doesn't work so well for something as open as philosophy. From what I'm gathering through research in "philosophy careers," this type of study is best utilized in tandem with something else. That HAD been my plan back when I took my first philosophy class on Carl Jung. His influence on Campbell and their ideas about art and literature seemed to benefit my English goals at the time. But now I'm hooked on philosophy, mainly moral, religious, and psychological philosophy.
It came to me this weekend that I may have to reconsider crossing graduate school out of my future. I guess I'm hoping that that more education will provide me with better tools for doing what I love. I was hesistant since I'm terrible about reading for all my classes and starting papers ahead of time. But I have a thesis topic for next year which is earning me alot of attention from the faculty and I'm actually excited about doing the work and seeing it all come together.
Is there anyone here who studied philosophy and might suggest some direction for me? It just seems like the only door that might be open for me is "professor of philosophy" but I'm not sure I'm ready to even consider that. Is there work for a religious philosopher who doesn't want to counsel in one particular religion? It is practical to start an education in psychology this late and could my philophy interests be incorporated as fully as I like?
My mom has some fear that I'm going to end up a "perpetual student" with no real direction in my life.
posted
What do you want to do as a philosopher, as a description?
I think what a philosopher does is think about things and write papers. If you want to be paid to write papers about philosophy solely, then I think graduate school is your only option. There are also some think tanks that hire people for that, but I am not sure that many hire philosophers, and they still require a graduate degree.
If you are willing to write about other things, or are willing to do other things for work, then you have many other choices. Getting an internship and then developing within a company is still an option. However, you will not be writing about philosophy, and you will probably be developing and using many skills that you haven't been trained for yet.
Philosophy as a course of study is wonderful and fun (I was two classes away from a minor.). Philosophy as a profession (i.e. someone pays you to do it) is limited to a career in academia and many more years of school.
A second degree in psychology will not increase greatly your non-graduate school options. If the idea is to build a career in the corporate world, then I would suggest starting into the working world to build the skills you need.
In other words, would you prefer to focus on philosophy or to start a non-academic career? The answer to that question will determine your next step, I think. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
You said you graduated with a degree in Liberal Arts? Believe it or not, employers recognize that it refers to training and exposure to many different fields and often is accompanied by rigorous thinking development.
Thus, it shouldn't be hard for you to find a job in a field which requires large amounts of critical and abstract thinking (advertising, public relations, some kinds business etc) where you can be mentally stimulated and make money and have enough time to do your philosophy on the side.
It's 2007: why not try to find an internship or summer job outside philosophy which could potentially interest you? That could better help pinpoint what you could enjoy doing when you begin your real job search.
Good luck! I also am of a "useless" major and it was relieving to know that there didn't have to be a 1:1 correspondence between major and entry level positions.
Posts: 484 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: It just seems like the only door that might be open for me is "professor of philosophy" but I'm not sure I'm ready to even consider that.
In that case, I would be wary of pursuing further education in philosophy at this time. It's something you can come back to in your late 20's, or even later, if you feel the need.
On the other hand, if you know you'll enjoy grad school, you do get paid for it in most good departments (though not much, unless you have a prestigious fellowship). So it's kind of like having a job that you love with guaranteed employment for the length of your program.
But the job market once you finish is extremely competitive. Realistically, there is very little chance of success if you don't study at one of the top 25 or so philosophy schools. In any case, apply to PhD programs -- don't start with a masters. Masters programs rarely offer funding.
Also, if you want an academic job you should perhaps focus on the more "marketable" of your specialties. Philosophy of religion is in great demand as a subject for teaching, but there's very little new research being done in that field, so big universities shy away from it in their hiring.
quote:Why not pursue a career editing philosophy books?
Problem is, editing for university presses is mostly done by professors. And "pop" philosophy books are typically mumbo-jumbo, not even addressing the sort of questions that academic philosophers deal with.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was talking to my boyfriend about this the other night (graduating this summer with the same degree, concentration and minor) and he mentioned the competition and low pay. Its a small college with a faculty of about 14 and so we hear alot from our professors about their personal lives and their jobs. I hear alot about the strains of working up an institution which, from its behavior, seems to be in the business of firing people and tormenting those who stick around.
Academia right now probably isn't right for me. I've had a hard time at school and I'm feeling particularly burnt out. I certainly consider further education at some point in my life, but its probably much later than sooner.
I guess I'm wondering which non-academic paths are available to me that would incorporate my philosophical interests and methods of thinking. I think I would enjoy working in a publishing agency, helping the next great American writer or something. I just don't know how competitive I feel against people with English degrees. I have a good background in literature thanks to my liberal arts education, but I never took Advanced Grammar and or worked for the school literary magazine (which I should actually look into trying next year if I have them time.) And what happens to the person who loves religion but doesn't want to preach one?
I think I have a good brain, I do well at problem-solving, and I'm a hard-worker...but I'm worried I lack REAL marketable skills. My dad did Business and Accounting in college which is where he is now, my mom did medicine and was a nurse before staying home to raise a family. Neither of them is much help or direction to their "liberal daughter."
I did plan on taking some time after graduation to learn to be independent (my parents have helped me alot financially since I started school.) I might stick around New Orleans and build up some savings while I investigate new cities to live. This seems to be the plan of most of my non-grad school friends.
I'm just afraid of getting stuck in a "job" when I dream of a "career."
Posts: 1733 | Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you thought about applying to a program like Teach for America or the Peace Corps? Those might let you take some time and think about what you want to do, as well as giving you good employment prospects for the future.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lots of people in publishing don't have English degrees. In fact, outside of the production department, I could count the number of English-degree holders that I know of at my company on the fingers of one hand.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not afraid of getting stuck in a "job" as long as it allows me to travel outside of work. Getting paid to do what you love is silly, IMO.
Posts: 1138 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know the feeling, Shanna. I'm 34, should be old enough to know what I want to do and I've looked at majoring in several practical things but always come back to my love of liberal arts, English in particular. But what am I going to do after graduation with an English degree? I've thought of going on and getting my graduate degree in English and teaching junior college, or getting my 5th year teacher's certification and teaching high school English, or getting my library science degree and working in a library.
Still not sure which I'm going to do. I don't want to go back to the corporate world, despite my success at it earlier. I want to work a more kid-friendly schedule, which is why I've considered teaching. That, and the fact that I love teaching. In my corporate job, my favorite thing was the training I did, and granted, training professionals isn't the same as teaching younger students, I do think I'd be comfortable in a classroom environment.
My husband's advice was to pursue teaching, but to get my degree and certification in math, not English. The reason? They desperately need math teachers, there are scholarships and incentives available to anyone majoring in math education and finding a job would be a no-brainer. And, he said math is objective, you teach, you give tests, the answers are either right or wrong and you move on. Whereas teaching English means doing more subjective grading and reading a lot of papers.
He's very right - all those things are true. But I don't love math like I love literature and writing. I can't teach math, not even sure I'd successfully be able to finish a major in it. I agree with cheiros in that no one should expect that they can do what they love and get paid for it - there's a reason it's called "work" - but at the same time, why go through the effort of getting my degree and finding a job if it's in a field that is guaranteed to make me miserable? Unlike you, I'm not in a position where I *have* to find a career, I could stay home and be a wife and mother, we don't need me to work to help support our family. That makes me very fortunate, I know.
But I'm still conflicted, and wondering if getting my degree in English is a waste of time or not.
(((Shanna)))
I wish you luck finding some answers.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
I studied philosophy because it helped me become a wiser, more morally attractive person, as a by-product, most of the jobs I get are directly related to my disposition. I also tend to like people who studied humanities.
I used to have on my resume that I was a Union Organizer. I am directly related to getting 220 workers health care and fairer wages on the strength of my personality. There really aren't too many people who could have done what I did, and it was excruciating, subtle work requiring a host of administrative skills and clear sighted moral judgment, but I can't put that on my resume and expect to get a job in the private industry. I cost the owner of my company millions of dollars. I took it off. Alas, the sale of souls for the entire world is completely voluntary and almost unanimous. Almost.
I don't regret my course of study. It's made me who I am and for the most part, I like who I am. Only in my quiet moments do I regret taking Union Organizer off of my resume. Again, good luck. I wish I could give you more assurances.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
But the job market once you finish is extremely competitive. Realistically, there is very little chance of success if you don't study at one of the top 25 or so philosophy schools. In any case, apply to PhD programs -- don't start with a masters. Masters programs rarely offer funding.
So what jobs do philosophers compete for? I've always wondered what people do with an education in philosophy, other than teaching.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The problem with a money society is that in order to get money, you have to provide something - a product or a service - that someone else is willing to pay for.
Philosophy - gaining wisdom through study - is infinitely valuable, but people tend to want to do their rather than pay someone else to do it for them. A philosophy degrees prepares you to provide many kinds of products and services, but few of those products or services are philosophy papers.
Have you decided if a corporate career or work directly involving philosophy is more important to you?
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Philosophy majors tend to hone basic skills that would be valuable in a great many career paths and professions - skills such as thinking critically, writing, and advocacy. If you want to choose a career outside of academics or directly involving philosophy, I believe there are many potential opportunities (at least for entry level positions and opportunities to learn a new field).
Posts: 195 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
My husband is a philosophy professor who is leaving academia for a number of reasons. He is an education consultant - he works on standardized testing from state tests to the GMAT and LSAT. It is very lucrative, much more so than teaching. He also has a law degree and passed the NY bar (on his first try), which he hasn't really used at all.
He gave the commencement address at the philosophy graduation at the University of Delaware (his alma mater) last year. I posted it here.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I too, love philosophy - and it's easily the subject I'm best at - but, because of the job market for professional philosophers, I've shied away from becoming a major. Instead I'm planning to go to grad school in economics.
The thing is, you can do philosophy and think about philosophy without having the title "philosopher." Amartya Sen, an Indian economist, won a Nobel Prize for pretty much writing philosophy with an economic bent. One of the books and several of the articles I've read for ethics classes have been written by economists. Most of the early economists were also political philosophers in one way or another. If I end up becoming a professor, then I'm likely going to try to sneak in some philosophy, one way or another.
I imagine the same is true for many other discplines - there are connections to philosophy in just about everything. As far as jobs are concerned... well, philosophy is one of the best subjects for teaching you how to think and write well. Those are skills useful in almost any career.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Jhai, we really would get along. I'm a philosophy and economics double major. Also, Amartya Sen rocks.
Shanna, I have the same problem, but I'm just going to continue with what I love. After I graduate, I plan to get my J.D. or philosophy Ph.D. or, you know, both. I have no idea what I'm going to do with this yet. But I do know that passion and skill can open doors. If you love philosophy and you're good at it, stick with it. There are so many jobs outside the typical ones of doctor, educator, lawyer, etc. Sometimes I feel like we get stuck into thinking we have to be one of these. It also appears that the sort of degree doesn't matter as much as the fact that you actually have a degree. You might as well do what you want to do. Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had two majors: philosophy and economics (just like Celaeno). I work now at a private school and am involved with fundraising. This is not directly related to either major, but I can tell you that I use things I learned in philosophy classes almost every day. The ability to write clearly and concisely while making a point is something I use whenever I write any correspondance. The ability to reason systematically is necessary whenever something goes wrong and a problem needs to be pinpointed. I even frequently use symbolic logic, when working with sets of data that need to be manipulated or merged. (Do we need to use And or OR when merging the data for this mailing? Are these statistics mutually exclusive? And so on...)
So, to answer your concerns, philosophy provides a lot of skills that will be useful in a whole array of fields. In fact, I think they are often better skills to learn in school than many of the more specialized skills, because the specialized skills tend to be things you will learn on the job anyway. For instance, I think it is relatively easy to be taught much of what business students know once you've been in the business world a year or two. But it's very difficult to find anyone to teach you how to use the rules of logic correctly or how to write clearly.
So the real answer is you can do almost anything you want at this point. The advantage of studying philosophy is that it is less likely to fool you into the mistaken assumption that your major limits your career options. The real question you should ask is "What things do I WANT to do?" This is the hardest part, in my view. What do you value? What do you enjoy? What industry might you want to go into? Once you answer that then consider how skills you've gotten from Philosophy or the Humanities might help you succeed in that particular area. I can guarantee you that you will have skills that apply to almost any industry you select, because there is always a need for analytical positions (jobs involved with manipulating information and generating new ideas) in every field.
Then, once you decide that it's just a matter of convincing some employer. The disadvantage to philosophy is that it doesn't clearly demonstrate to an employer that you can succeed in one particular industry, which is what they care about. You may need internships or other experience to do that. And you will need some patience and motivation in looking for jobs.
I have considered and still am considering going back to graduate school to study philosophy at some point. From what I know, I would not do it just because there seems to be no other path available. (In a large part because there definitely ARE other paths available, even if you can't see them.) If you are considering it, there is one important thing you should do: Talk to one or more of your professors about it. They will be able to tell you what options there are in academia and what options outside. You will also need references from them if you ever do decide to go into graduate school.
I don't believe being a philosopher requires being a professional philospher, though. (But it does entail more than just having opinions on things. )
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Shanna: I'll be graduating Spring 2007 with a BA in Liberal Arts, concentration in Humanities and Social Thought.
Wow, I hope you didn't pay any actual money for that.
My brother-in-law got his Masters in English and will probably soon be asking people if they "want fries with that" in Old English.
Posts: 326 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I saw Amartya Sen talk and field questions about a year ago. What a clearly spoken, articulate man.
Posts: 5600 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow, I hope you didn't pay any actual money for that.
My brother-in-law got his Masters in English and will probably soon be asking people if they "want fries with that" in Old English.
You know, it really irks me when people assume that certain degrees aren't worth anything simply because they are in the liberal arts. I know more than a few people who do quite well in the corporate world with liberal arts degrees.
The #1 skill employers say they want in potential employees is communication skills. An English major will at the very least be able to write coherently, which is more than can be said for a lot of the applicants my mother the HR director sees. I help her screen resumes and cover letters, believe me. I've seen applications and resumes from people with all sorts of degrees and many of them are plain embarrrassing - usually the liberal arts majors can at least write a decent cover letter.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
as Belle said, just because there may not be professions that seem to be directly related to Liberal Arts does not mean that you have to get a "would you like fries with that" job. Many buisnesses are more than happy to hire people with a Liberal Arts degree. Someone with a Master's in English is not limited to academia or the publishing world. He could easily get a job working either in management, or in some other capasity for a company.
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:So what jobs do philosophers compete for? I've always wondered what people do with an education in philosophy, other than teaching.
It is one of the more competitive majors (in the sense of "gives one a leg up on the competition") for medical school, provided that the other requirements have been met. The acceptance rate for philosophy majors is quite high.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, I'm proud to say that I'm now joining the ranks of the econ/philosophy double majors of Hatrack. I was planning my schedule for next semester, and was quite depressed that I wasn't going to be taking any philosophy classes...
So I dropped my math major (instead I'll just be a ten-class minor ) and switched back to philosophy. I've been practically dancing all day. Luckily, it doesn't matter if I'm a "math major" for grad school - I just need to have the right courses.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'd suggest reading Socrates Cafe by Christopher Phillips. He may not make much money, but he's managed to make philosophy a practical endeavor in his life. Even if you wind up doing something else, if you find ways to let the philosopher in you out and keep it occupied, you might just find an equally satisfying and finacially productive activity to do with that.
Good luck with whatever you end up doing. Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hooray for econ/math double majors! I'm the only one at my university thus far, but I have two potential converts.
And Epictetus, I've read that, and it was fascinating. Because of it, we have weekly "Cafe Socrates" meetings run by students and advised by the faculty. This upcoming one is The Ethics of Emotion.Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Wow, I hope you didn't pay any actual money for that.
My brother-in-law got his Masters in English and will probably soon be asking people if they "want fries with that" in Old English.
You know, it really irks me when people assume that certain degrees aren't worth anything simply because they are in the liberal arts. I know more than a few people who do quite well in the corporate world with liberal arts degrees.
The #1 skill employers say they want in potential employees is communication skills. An English major will at the very least be able to write coherently, which is more than can be said for a lot of the applicants my mother the HR director sees. I help her screen resumes and cover letters, believe me. I've seen applications and resumes from people with all sorts of degrees and many of them are plain embarrrassing - usually the liberal arts majors can at least write a decent cover letter.
In addition to this, I find it sad that people think education is worthless if it can't earn you money later. When I first got to my uni, I didn't pick philosophy because I thought there would be a career in it. I chose it because I loved it, and I felt enriched for it.
I understand the pragmatic viewpoint; I really do. But that doesn't change the fact that I think it's disappointing and represents a degradation of the value of education in our society.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I like to think that I have a higher quality of life than most people who make more money than I do, largely because I get to spend my time on philosophy and they have to spend theirs filing TPS reports.
Posts: 4600 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Honestly, if I were idle rich, I'd be back in school getting at least a BA in Philosophy along with learning japanese and taking desperately needed art classes.
Oh for infinate money and infinate time....
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
My dean told me that there was no point in me getting a bachelor's in philosophy and that if I really wanted a philosophy degree, I should just go for a master's.
quote: And Epictetus, I've read that, and it was fascinating. Because of it, we have weekly "Cafe Socrates" meetings run by students and advised by the faculty. This upcoming one is The Ethics of Emotion
Right on, I'm starting one at my local coffe shop pretty soon here.
Posts: 681 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
)
