quote: When the president was asked at a Rose Garden question-and-answer session whether the anthem should be sung in Spanish, he replied: "I think the national anthem ought to be sung in English, and I think people who want to be a citizen of this country ought to learn English and they ought to learn to sing the national anthem in English."
He made his remarks during a wide-ranging briefing with reporters.
"The intention of recording 'Nuestro Himno' (Our Anthem) has never been to discourage immigrants from learning English and embracing American culture," Kidron said in a statement issued after the president spoke.
"We instead view 'Nuestro Himno' as a song that affords those immigrants that have not yet learned the English language the opportunity to fully understand the character of the Star-Spangled Banner, the American flag and the ideals of freedom that they represent," Kidron said.
To me, what is really weird about this debate that it isn't even about where the Spanish version would be sung, but the fact that it is being recorded in the first place.
BTW: the United States doesn't have an official language.
What do you all think? Is this just a thinly veiled anti-immigation screed? Does Bush have a valid point that in order to be a citizen you have to make efforts to learn the national language and what could prevent linguistic assimilation should be discouraged?
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Looks like we're up for another pointless national debate much like the flag burning amendment...
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Regardless of whether we have an official language or not, the fact is that English is the dominant language spoken, and if you want to truly succeed here, you need to know how to speak/read/write in it. It's so dominant that many (most?) Americans don't know any other language (except maybe the cusswords).
I don't think it's anti-immigration to say 'if you move here, you must learn the language'. I mean, duh, if I want to become a citizen of Italy, I had better plan on learning to speak italian. That's just basic courtesy (and probably to some degree survival). I should also learn how the government works and some basics on the laws and the history of the country. I'm asking to be part of the family, so out of basic respect, I should be eager to learn the language, the rules, the culture, and the history. What arrogance it would be for me to say "Yes, Italy is far better now that I'm here. They should all learn my language, and do things the way I'm accustomed to."
Yes, traditionally, America is a melting pot of cultures, and that is wonderful, but it also has enough history to have a culture all its own, and I think that's worth knowing and respecting if you want to be a part of the family.
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Well, I think it's sweet that people want to embrace the national anthem of their adopted country. It's not like they are denying the English version, but it's like saying, "We are Americans, too, and we are proud of our new country and our old heritage".
George Bush ought to be tickled that people are into patriotism rather than disrespecting the country. Sheesh!
You can disagree with me. But you'd be wrong.
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fwiw, I don't really care if the National Anthem gets translated into other languages. Record it, whatever. But you should be able to speak English as well.
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quote:Originally posted by jeniwren: Regardless of whether we have an official language or not, the fact is that English is the dominant language spoken, and if you want to truly succeed here, you need to know how to speak/read/write in it. It's so dominant that many (most?) Americans don't know any other language (except maybe the cusswords).
Although I agree with you, I have to point something out: Christianity is the "dominant" religion in the United States, so should all people coming here learn christian values in order to fit in and be more "American?" Just because something is dominant or common doesn't mean it is worth preserving for only that reason, there are other, better reasons for keeping English as our language than simple precedent.
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jeniwren, I don't believe you have addressed this issue, or any point of view that anybody has expressed in this thread, or any point of view I have actually heard expressed.
-o-
Of course it's in an immigrant's self-interest to learn English. I know many immigrants, and I don't know a single one who neither knows English nor wants to. The only real exceptions to that are those who end up being brought to the US by their children or grandchildren when they're in their seventies or whatever, and are mostly lost and confused in a culture they don't get.
I certainly have never heard an immigrant express a sentiment approaching "Yes, [America] is far better now that I'm here. They should all learn my language, and do things the way I'm accustomed to."
The translation is, as has been noted a way for immigrants to show their loyalty to the country, and their respect for it. Taking offense at it is asinine. (And yes, I'm aware that you did *not* take offense at it.)
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Icky, no offense intended, but I know a more than a few people who think that we should change to accomidate them rather than the other way around.
And most of them are NOT in their 70's.
Come work with me at the FL Mall for a weekend and see with the disdain I have to put up with when I tell customers, politely, that I don't speak Spanish (yet). Most of the people I tell that too are cool with that, particularly since I usually offer to find someone for them who does if they can't communicate in English at all, or if they ask for someone who speaks it....but I have been LECTURED on the necessity of speaking Spanish more than once in the past 7 months, and it was all I could do to not tell them off.
Keep in mind that I do speak (sort of) more than one language, and am planning on taking Spanish classes at VCC soon, so I am NOT adverse to learning a new language, or ignorant to people who don't speak English well.
As far as this particular issue, I sort of agree with Bush on this one, although I don't see a problem with learning it in their native language as well, and recording it in it either.
quote:Is this just a thinly veiled anti-immigation screed?
quote:I don't think it's anti-immigration to say 'if you move here, you must learn the language'.
Ic, I honestly thought I was answering the question. The rest of that paragraph was just to further illustrate my point (that it's not anti-immigration to insist on learning the language, that is), not really as a diatribe against what is actually happening, because honestly, I don't know. I have had some interesting and sometimes funny experiences with language clashes, but overall, it has all been pretty positive. My favorite was when I was dating the son of Italian immigrants. As he was offering his non-English speaking grandmother a slice of pie, he, not being fluent in italian, told her what kind it was in italianized English. Leemo (sp?) is not italian for 'lime'. It means 'hair'. She thought this was very funny. As did I. But that's pretty much the extent of it. I wasn't intentionally making a comment about 'those darned immigrants'. Honest.
Sorry if I made it sound like that's what I meant. I really didn't.
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I remember the first time I saluted anything. It was September 11, 2003, the 4th day of Basic training, marching back from picking up our uniforms. "Attention", the audible precurser to the National Anthem blasted over Lackland AFB, and our TI halted us. We hadn't been formally taught how to salute yet, so he gave us a 3 second crash course. And then it began to play. I don't remember exactly what he said, but I can hear SSgt Andrade's distinctive voice, facing the music, with his back to us, explaining to us what the music meant. And I can also remember tearing up.
That music, or it's equivalent, "To the Colors" is played every day at the same time (not taking into account time zones) on every US military installation in the world, and is accorded the same respect as the Flag itself. As long as it retains the respect it deserves, I believe helping people understand in any language what our Flag and Anthem mean to us can only be a good thing.
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They didn't just change the language, they changed alot of the words. It is a complete bastardization of our national anthem.
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Translations ALWAYS change words, in order to present the song or poem in as clear and musical a way as possible. You've got to make sacrifices.
For that matter, the National Anthem is a bastardization of Key's (it was Key right?) original text, which was 5 times as long. Translations simply cannot transfer exactly, it doesn't work that way, and if it did, we would all be able to speak Spanish anyway.
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Not really a bastardization then Orincoro, so much as a shortening. It's one thing to mix and match, it's another to just take the first stanza and use that.
I don't really care that much if others want to sing it in their own language. I do however, think they should all be made to learn English. It's to their own advantage. Plus, I don't want anyone to be accused of racism or xenophobia when foriegn language Americans can't vote becuase they can't understand the process, nor do I think it is necessary for ballots to be in Spanish.
Pretty much everyone at the restaurant that I work at speaks english, and the kitchen crew and busboy staff is something like 80% hispanic.
Learn English. Sing the song in whatever language you want.
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[/QUOTE]Although I agree with you, I have to point something out: Christianity is the "dominant" religion in the United States, so should all people coming here learn christian values in order to fit in and be more "American?" Just because something is dominant or common doesn't mean it is worth preserving for only that reason, there are other, better reasons for keeping English as our language than simple precedent. [/QUOTE]
That's not a proper analogy, as jeniwren wasn't necessarily talking about adopting the values of our country but learning basic survival skills in order to succeed. Adopting the majority's Christian values and adopting the majority's language to succeed are two entirely different things, and you can't compare the two.
I think the reason given for translating the anthem (so people who haven't learned English yet can appreciate it) is bull and trying to bring more attention to the immigration debate. If they want to translate it, though, it's not a big deal. I really doubt this is the first time it's been done, just that it's the first time it's garnered so much attention.
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I think people living in the US should learn English for their own sakes, but I fail to see why you think they should be *made* to do so, Lyrhawn. As has been pointed out, English is not the official language of the US.
When you give so much of a damn what other people do, I can't see how you could think that it's anything *other* than racism/xenophobia.
Kwea, I'm sorry you've had some negative experiences. There are bad apples, or rude people, in any bunch. I would suggest, however, that when somebody rudely lectures you in this way, you don't know that that person is an immigrant--legal or otherwise--as opposed to a tourist (Americans certainly are often guilty of the same behavior when abroad), and you don't know that that person, if a resident, is not making any effort to learn Spanish. Sometimes people are their rudest when they feel the most vulnerable.
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Seriously, to Orin, how is that a dangerous attitude or dangerous words?
And Icarus, seriously? I say they should learn english and now I'm racist AND Xenophobic. Get a grip bud. No, America does not have an OFFICIAL national language, but for all intents and purposes, whether you want to admit it or not, English is the dominant language here. It is the language of business, government, education, social services, and basically every arm of every establishment here in America.
Why is it so friggin radical to suggest that they should have to learn English? So far as America is concerned, it's the language of democracy. You can't participate equally in the system if you don't speak the language. Quite frankly, those suggesting that they shouldn't be made to learn English strike me as the racist xenophobes. They'd rather the newcomers are unable to participate in the process rather than have them be integrated and made a part of the American government.
I think the two of you had better explain your reactions to my post better. You most of all Icarus. I have little if any tolerance for someone who blithely calls me a racist xenophobe, and usually zero respect as well.
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What bothers me is how we are now puting Spanish on everything. I don't want a blue azul crayon, I want a blue crayon. I don't want my hamburger ads in spanish. And most of all, I dont want to see a sign that says "Vote Aqui." I mean come on! Why the heck would someone who doesn't know english be voting? Last time I checked you needed to be a citizen to vote. The way our country is going, that won't last much longer.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: I do however, think they should all be made to learn English. It's to their own advantage.
Dangerous words... dangerous attitude.
You backpedalling and rephrasing to say that they SHOULD learn to speak English doesn't justify these words. "They should be made to." Since you changed the wording, I assume you understand very well why they it is a dangerous thing to think.
Like I said earlier, no tradition is worth preserving for the sake of precedent over common sense. If the language and the culture evolves, that's the way it goes, and boo-hoo to you.
(I mean seriously?)
Edit to add
" Quite frankly, those suggesting that they shouldn't be made to learn English strike me as the racist xenophobes. They'd rather the newcomers are unable to participate in the process rather than have them be integrated and made a part of the American government."
Are you that dim? Forcing them to learn is going to make them equal??? They'll always be those people you FORCED to learn and adapt to your traditions, and that worked out oh so well for African Americans didn't it? Should they learn? DUH, yes. Should anyone be FORCED to learn? CAN you force anyone to learn anything? What about history has shown you that this attitude is a productive one? Heh, its a far cry from forcing someone to learn, to not wanting them to learn at all. There is this patch of ground, right smack in the middle.
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No, I didn't backpeddle. "Should have to" and "should be made to" mean more or less the same thing, and for the point I am trying to make, they do mean the same thing.
No one is going to FORCE feed them the English language. But if they want to become US citizens, they have to pass a basic English test. It has nothing to do (as far as my argument goes), with keeping traditions intact, and little to do with culture as well.
The idea of an ever evolving America, something never static but always weaving new threads into it's tapestry is a sacred one, and one I believe in. But don't confuse the issue. Preserving present day America wasn't a part of my argument, and your introduction of that position into this discussion makes you look silly in my opinion. You can't force an opinion on me and then beat it down (isn't that a strawman?).
It's not that big a deal. I'm not saying they aren't allowed to speak Spanish anymore. Hell, I don't care if they never utter another word of English again in their lives. I think that'd probably be rude given a lot of situations they might find themselves in, but they should be able to speak it and understand it for dozens of reasons. If they don't want to learn it then fine, they can stay home. I'm not going to invade their country and spoonfeed them my language, but if they want to come here, they have to learn it, it's as simple as that, and I don't see how that's racist or xenophobic.
As for your additions on the end there, you're attacking something that I don't stand for, so, I don't know who you're arguing against, but I hope you won for all the energy you injected into that paragraph.
And I think by the way, the better example you'll want to make is the forced adaptation of American Indians to the American way of life. American Indians were in many cases forced to go to schools that taught women how to cook, and men how to be proper and civilived. Often the women would come back and be rejected by the men who didn't want to eat their American cooking, so those who'd been to the schools had the choice of entirely abandoning their own way or life, or going back to their own way and ignoring American culture.
You're trying to suggest that A. I stand for this sort of black and white world with no middle ground. And B, that I'm suggesting we should somehow forcefeed English to the entire world or something (if that isn't your argument, then you make little or no sense to me, I suppose you are just grossly misunderstanding my point).
Problem is, my argument is NOT one of traditions, or culture. It's one of society, and a FUNCTIONAL society at that. And of a functional democracy. Yes, you can force someone to learn something. You tell them that the only way they'll be able to do A, is to do B, or they can choose C instead, which has no forced restrictions on them. A, is become American. B, is learn English. C, is to keep their status quo. They still have a choice.
And what are you going to do for these new American citizens who want to become a part of the American political process? How will they decide who to vote for? How will they keep in touch with what is going on in their country? How will they know what issues effect them the most in an ENGLISH SPEAKING SOCIETY. Spanish language dubs aren't universal, especially not across the country.
What are you going to do when one of these immigrants who refuses to learn English for cultural reasons has an accident and needs to go to the hospital, they have an allergy to penicillin, but they can't tell the doctor that, and he can't ask, because they don't understand each other, so the person goes into annaphilactic shock and dies, and why? So you can preserve some self righteous idea of the ever evolving nature of American culture? I have zero problem with an ever evolving culture, so long as it is all inclusive, fair, level, and doesn't risk the lives of people based on something as TRIVIAL AS LEARNING THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.
There aren't always bilingual bystanders around to accomodate every situation. Accidents WILL happen. And as far as I'm concerned, if only ONE accident happens next year, or the next decade, where someone is hurt because of a foul up over language, then the price is already too high. Just because English wasn't a requirement of citizenship.
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Bush got something right for once. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. As for the phrase "people who want to be a citizen of this country," if those were his exact words, he doesn't really know English himself, but his idea was right.
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While I am a big proponent of English as the official language, the Spanish language version of the National Anthem and the feelings behind it, really was stirring.
It's really all about who wants to be an American, isn't it? And in a day and age where we, as Americans, hear how bad we are in the eyes of the rest of the world, we should be looking at this as love from people who want to live among Americans, work among Americans, and become Americans.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: I think people living in the US should learn English for their own sakes, but I fail to see why you think they should be *made* to do so, Lyrhawn. As has been pointed out, English is not the official language of the US.
When you give so much of a damn what other people do, I can't see how you could think that it's anything *other* than racism/xenophobia.
Kwea, I'm sorry you've had some negative experiences. There are bad apples, or rude people, in any bunch. I would suggest, however, that when somebody rudely lectures you in this way, you don't know that that person is an immigrant--legal or otherwise--as opposed to a tourist (Americans certainly are often guilty of the same behavior when abroad), and you don't know that that person, if a resident, is not making any effort to learn Spanish. Sometimes people are their rudest when they feel the most vulnerable.
Do you even know what the words racist and xenophobic mean? Nothing in anything Lyrhawn has said has implied either of those things. The gist of what she's said is that immigrants should learn English because it's for their own good. What's racist or xenophobic about that?
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sep 2005
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I hope everyone who insists that the anthem should be sung only in English is consistent in their attitude when Spanish becomes the predominant language in a few years. "Singing the anthem in anything but Spanish is gol durn unpatriotic, I tells ya!"
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I'm always surprised when people tell me they don't want to see Spanish words next to English words on products. Whenever I see a product in both English and Spanish I usually smile.
It just seems strange to me that people get so upset about seeing Spanish next to precious English.
As for the National Anthem, I think it's awesome to record it in a different language, especially one that's growing so much in the US. I don't, however, find the Nation Anthem especially awe-inspiring and unless I hear it at a hockey game, I usually try to avoid listening to it (that goes for the Canadian Anthem as well).
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Why is this arrangement more remarkable than the Jimi Hendrex version, or any of the poorly conceived "trendy" renditions we hear at the start of ball games. Singing the song in duple rhythem with melesmas and false notes that obscure both the words and the tune have been an unpleaseant ficture on the sports scene for years.
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quote:I'm always surprised when people tell me they don't want to see Spanish words next to English words on products. Whenever I see a product in both English and Spanish I usually smile.
It just seems strange to me that people get so upset about seeing Spanish next to precious English.
I've have never, in 35 years of existence, heard anyone complain about that.
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This is a little different but somewhat related. I was at work once and a customer was talking on his cell phone at the back of his store. He was speaking Japanese. One my co-workers came over and starting complaining that he really should learn English if he wants to live here (he was pretty vulgar in what he said). I mentioned that the guy was having a private conversation, so who the heck cares.
A different job I worked at, we had international ice-skating teams come by all the time. We'd try to communicate through hand gestures and drawing pictures. I had so much fun trying to decipher what they were trying to ask me. I think they had fun, too.
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I think it is interesting how strongly our idea of nationality is tied to language. That isn't always the case.
In Macedonia, over 20% of its population speaks Albanian. However, a large number of them consider themselves to be Macedonian. This is actually the case for most of the Balkans: Yugoslavia has 6 official languages (and they aren't all dialects of Serbo-Croatian )
Switzerland is another example. The dominant languages are tied to other countries (French, German) but the Swiss still consider themseves to be affiliated with the idea of Switzerland as a nation.
You would think a country like America, which has been founded by speakers of many different languages, would be less tied to the notion of linguistic unity=nation and more to the concept of America as a political entity.
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quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata: Why is this arrangement more remarkable than the Jimi Hendrex version, or any of the poorly conceived "trendy" renditions we hear at the start of ball games. Singing the song in duple rhythem with melesmas and false notes that obscure both the words and the tune have been an unpleaseant ficture on the sports scene for years.
For the same reason that gay people getting married is considered more destructive to the institution of marriage than celebrities marrying and divorcing as if it were a bodily function. Because it touches a more exposed nerve.
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While I'll agree-somewhat-that taking offense at a Spanish-language American National Anthem is asinine, there is another translation which also includes some alterations.
Many people have difficulty seperating the two in their minds.
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quote:Nothing in anything Lyrhawn has said has implied either of those things. The gist of what she's said is that immigrants should learn English because it's for their own good.
He, actually - or, uh, I'm going to be very, very, very confused.
quote:I've have never, in 35 years of existence, heard anyone complain about that.
...really? I heard that growing up in Hawaii, and we barely have ANY hispanic people there.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I've have never, in 35 years of existence, heard anyone complain about that.
Not even at, like 2 o'clock this morning?
quote:Elmer's Glue Member Member # 9313 - posted April 29, 2006 02:04 AM
What bothers me is how we are now puting Spanish on everything. I don't want a blue azul crayon, I want a blue crayon. I don't want my hamburger ads in spanish. And most of all, I dont want to see a sign that says "Vote Aqui."
posted
[Off topic] *Always thought that 'Blue azul' was just a Crayola colour like 'China white' or 'Magenta pink'* [/Off Topic]
Yeah. The only Spanish I know begins and ends at 'hola' and 'la cuenta, por favor'. I need to do something about that.
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EDIT - This was an accidental repeat of what Tante posted. Feel free to ignore this post.
quote:
quote:I'm always surprised when people tell me they don't want to see Spanish words next to English words on products. Whenever I see a product in both English and Spanish I usually smile.
It just seems strange to me that people get so upset about seeing Spanish next to precious English.
I've have never, in 35 years of existence, heard anyone complain about that.
quote:What bothers me is how we are now puting Spanish on everything. I don't want a blue azul crayon, I want a blue crayon. I don't want my hamburger ads in spanish. And most of all, I dont want to see a sign that says "Vote Aqui." I mean come on! Why the heck would someone who doesn't know english be voting? Last time I checked you needed to be a citizen to vote. The way our country is going, that won't last much longer.
quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: I've have never, in 35 years of existence, heard anyone complain about that.
Not even at, like 2 o'clock this morning?
quote:Elmer's Glue Member Member # 9313 - posted April 29, 2006 02:04 AM
What bothers me is how we are now puting Spanish on everything. I don't want a blue azul crayon, I want a blue crayon. I don't want my hamburger ads in spanish. And most of all, I dont want to see a sign that says "Vote Aqui."
Well, that's what I get for skipping posts.
Of course, I haven't read it out loud, so technically I didn't hear it yet.
What a ridiculous thing to complain about.
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posted
I rather imagine that Elmer has never lived anywhere people didn't speak English. Otherwise, he might just be a little more understanding. It's tough getting by day by day in a language which isn't your own, even if you're learning. Making life harder for non-English speakers, because it would make a few people feel better about their crayon labelling does seem a little extreme.
*Really wants Elmer to live in Quebec for a while*
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posted
José Cañu, sí, buy the dawn's early light. Put it loudly on sale for the midnight last gleaning.
Ya know, there've been a few times in my life when I was so proud listening to the NationalAnthem that tears glistened my eyes. And now some political hacks just wanna use it as a partisan sales pitch to divide what should be indivisible.
The Star-spangled Banner was never about the lyrics, not the words themselves. Rather it exists to evoke the feeling for all of the good things in America that makes it worthwhile to stand "through the perilous fight" against "the rocket's red glare, the bombs bursting in air..."
Since it isn't about the words*themselves, the NationalAnthem can't be about what language those lyrics are sung in. If Spanish/Urdu/Farsi/etc lyrics help some of us feel more like a fully accepted part of US, then that can only be good.
* If it were, we'd be singing America the Beautiful or God bless America or This Land Is Your Land or .....
posted
Within the first two weeks of starting to learn French, I learned the entire French national anthemn and what the words meant. That was over six and a half years ago and I still know the entire thing. My French teacher was into making us all sing, but even so, I think making a Spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner takes spoon-feeding to a whole new level.
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quote:Nothing in anything Lyrhawn has said has implied either of those things. The gist of what she's said is that immigrants should learn English because it's for their own good.
He, actually - or, uh, I'm going to be very, very, very confused.
Is it the name? Is that it? Lyrhawn sounds too feminine? I can't imagine it was the content of my posts. But thank you for the correction eros. Male is in fact correct.
quote: Within the first two weeks of starting to learn French, I learned the entire French national anthemn and what the words meant. That was over six and a half years ago and I still know the entire thing. My French teacher was into making us all sing, but even so, I think making a Spanish version of the Star Spangled Banner takes spoon-feeding to a whole new level.
I find the French national anthem to be rather rousing. The Russian national anthem gives me goose bumps. I don't know all the words to the Russian anthem anymore, but I'll never forget the French words.
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Well, now that I think about it, we do kinda have an official language of sorts. It would be English. Ya see, in the military you can only use English. Except in your off time you can converse in your more or less native tongue. It wasn't always like this. When I joined it was English or nothing. However, anything work related must be in English.
An' I have heard some bad English in the past 7 years. Some comes from me, I admit. When I stop caring about how it sounds vice wanting to just get the message across.
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"Within the first two weeks of starting to learn French, I learned the entire French national anthemn and what the words meant."
Given the importance of nuance and connotation in understanding words and phrases within a language: unless you are sufficiently fluent to be published, your understanding of La Marseillaise is likely to be different from that of a Frenchman.
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