posted
I don't think so, erosomniac. Ecstacy isn't an SSRI but a methamphetamine derivative (a member of the class of Phenylethylamines(MDMA, MDEA, MMDA, and DOM – aka enactogens or “designer drugs,” developed to avoid DEA prosecution), similar to mescaline/peyote cactus "buttons." It is currently thought to cause permanent neurological damage (“burn out” serotonin receptors – animal studies show cumulative and dose-related degradation of neurons after use).
In other words -- same neurotransmitter and neurons, but different overall effect. The mechanism (or rather, what we know of it) is different from SSRIs.
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Edited to add: oligatory link to review article from the Canadian Medical Association Journal
I'm writing a book chapter on this right now in another window, so this is quite serendipitous. Delighted to know that progress is being made in narrowing down the mechanism of SSRIs, too. Thanks, Noemon.
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Edited again to add: Ahhh, in reading through the CMAJ article, I'm seeing E identified as binding and blocking the serotonin transport molecule. It's not usually classified as an SSRI, so I wonder if it would be more properly called a "selective serotonin reuptake blocker," which might explain the "burn-out" effect.
That is, with SSRIs, you aren't thought to get a complete blockade of reuptake. I don't think. Now I have to go read up on it again.
quote:It is currently though to cause permanent neurological damage (“burn out” serotonin receptors – animal studies show cumulative and dose-related degradation of neurons after use).
My understanding is that this is only true for MMDA, DOM and MDA, not MDMA. I'll see if I can find the list of links I have on the subject when I get home.
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posted
Fascinating! Please do. I'll be getting my facts straight on this during this afternoon, too.
Also -- it isn't really "selective" to serotonin, is it? Doesn't E affect dopamine and noradrenaline release? (The SSRIs were hailed as "less dirty" in this sense; i.e., more targeted than what had come before.)
This is awesome, BTW. I was feeling quite flippant before, and now I have a load of reading ahead. Good stuff.
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quote:Edited again to add: Ahhh, in reading through the CMAJ article, I'm seeing E identified as binding and blocking the serotonin transport molecule. It's not usually classified as an SSRI, so I wonder if it would be more properly called a "selective serotonin reuptake blocker," which might explain the "burn-out" effect.
I think this was my understanding as well, although once again, going to have to double check my facts when I'm not on an office computer (ever try to explain to your boss why you're surfing through pages about ecstacy? Neither have I, and I don't want to find out what happens!).
quote:Also -- it isn't really "selective" to serotonin, is it? Doesn't E affect dopamine and noradrenaline release? (The SSRIs were hailed as "less dirty" in this sense; i.e., more targeted than what had come before.)
I seem to remember that yes, it has an effect on dopamine (not sur eabout noradrenaline) release, which I suppose would mean it isn't a true SSRI, depending on how exactly the Selective is defined.
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posted
I suspect that CT would have absolutely no problem during her current project explaining to her boss why she was surfing pages about ecstacy. Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: I suspect that CT would have absolutely no problem during her current project explaining to her boss why she was surfing pages about ecstacy.
Unless, of course, her Google search string included "How+to+obtain" O_O.
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posted
Update: I'm working through a review article in the March 2006 edition of Journal of Psychopharmacology entitled "Ecstacy: are animal data consistent between species and can they translate to humans?" Good journal, looks to be a thorough overview of the literature.
What I'm getting on first read is that MDMA is not considered an SSRI because it is not "selective" to serontonin -- i.e., it affects dopamine and noradrenaline as well. Looks like MDMA does show serotonin neurotoxicity in both animal models and humans, but (for some reason) neurotoxicity does seem to be specific to serotonin-related neurons.
That is, even though it affects dopamine and noradrenaline, it hasn't been shown to be toxic to those cells.
The link above is to the free abstract. The rest of the article requires subscription, which my library does have. I can pull out the cites for MDMA toxicity in both animal models and humans if anyone would like. It'd just be a matter of pulling out a short paragraph or two, with the footnotes added.
quote:Originally posted by erosomniac: I think this was my understanding as well, although once again, going to have to double check my facts when I'm not on an office computer (ever try to explain to your boss why you're surfing through pages about ecstacy? Neither have I, and I don't want to find out what happens!).
*grin
I spent 2 or 3 days compiling a list of street names for recreational drugs. Required some interesting website visits.
dkw, a little latitude is in order. Now I can justify Hatrack as well. Exxxcelllent ... *temples fingers
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quote:The link above is to the free abstract. The rest of the article requires subscription, which my library does have. I can pull out the cites for MDMA toxicity in both animal models and humans if anyone would like. It'd just be a matter of pulling out a short paragraph or two, with the footnotes added.
Yes, please. Or e-mail me, via the link in my profile!
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posted
Is Zoloft an SSRI? 'Cause I don't want more neurons. Though actually, I stopped taking that stuff a couple of months ago.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Is Zoloft an SSRI? 'Cause I don't want more neurons. Though actually, I stopped taking that stuff a couple of months ago.
Yes.
You know, I wonder if that's why it doesn't work on me.
I read somewhere that people with OCD have too much brain activity. ...then why feed them SSRIs, though?
posted
SSRI's are meant to be taken only for a year or two and then tapered off. I was on Zoloft for 5 years. I had trouble getting off it (return of panic attacks) but finally I discovered how to taper it so as to not shock my nervous system. I recommend it if one is having trouble with depression and/or panic attacks.
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posted
SSRI's are meant to be taken only for a year or two and then tapered off. I was on Zoloft for 5 years. I had trouble getting off it (return of panic attacks) but finally I discovered how to taper it so as to not shock my nervous system. I recommend it if one is having trouble with depression and/or panic attacks.
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quote:Originally posted by starLisa: Is Zoloft an SSRI? 'Cause I don't want more neurons. Though actually, I stopped taking that stuff a couple of months ago.
Yes.
You know, I wonder if that's why it doesn't work on me.
I read somewhere that people with OCD have too much brain activity. ...then why feed them SSRIs, though?
-pH
I have OCD (some, anyway, even if it's not diagnosed), and Zoloft definitely worked for me. It actually muted all that brain activity. Made the "voices" go away, so to speak. Until I started taking it, I was doing far too much mentally verbalized thinking. A couple of days in, it was so quiet in my head that it was eerie.
Now, after a couple of months off of it (which was after about 2.5 years taking it), I'm out of the habit of mentally verbalizing. Which is a major plus.
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posted
Amphetamines definiately have an effect on dopamine, which is part of why folks with ADHD are treated with stimulants. That whole theory about not enough dopamine in the right parts of the brian, amphetamines triggering a release of extra dopamine, etc.
Dammit, Noemon, this makes me want to go back to school. Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:I have OCD (some, anyway, even if it's not diagnosed), and Zoloft definitely worked for me. It actually muted all that brain activity. Made the "voices" go away, so to speak. Until I started taking it, I was doing far too much mentally verbalized thinking. A couple of days in, it was so quiet in my head that it was eerie.
Now, after a couple of months off of it (which was after about 2.5 years taking it), I'm out of the habit of mentally verbalizing. Which is a major plus.
See, Zoloft freaked me out really badly. And it made me shake. So did Prozac. And on top of that, I got really lonely while I was on them, and I couldn't think clearly. I felt like a robot.
I really like Wellbutrin. I don't know what it is about it. It doesn't really CONTROL everything, but it generally makes me feel better, and it doesn't make me feel like my brain is stuffed with cotton balls.
In conclusion, Team norephinephrine/dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor!
posted
I was on Zoloft for ... two and a half years, maybe a little longer. I was a bit robotic, yes, but I didn't daydream about how cool it would be to be dead, so there you go. I came off it by forgetting ito take it with me on a camping trip, and had no significant problems (not that I would reccommend stopping any medication that suddenly, but it was a low dose and I was hypervigilant about monitoring myself).
I certainly felt like I had new neurons once I was off of it, though not while I was on it.
Edit: I know I couldn't really feel a net gain in neurons - I was just kidding!
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posted
pH, I hated Zoloft too! It didn't freak me out or make me shake but it definitely made me feel like a robot. I felt like someone had taken over my body and replaced me with an AI construct. It felt worse and worse, until I would have done anything to get my self back. That Radiohead song "Fitter, Happier" is just the way I felt. So I quit taking it and luckily didn't need it anymore after that. If I ever feel like I need something again I'm gonna try Wellbutrin.
I took pregnenalone for a little while, just for three or four days at a time whenever I felt bad. It's cheap, over the counter, and works right away (instead of taking 3 weeks to kick in like SSRIs,) so it's great. But it started making my diabetes worse (it's a hormone so it can have some side effects like that), so I had to stop taking it.
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