quote: The central tenet of libertarianism is the principle of self-ownership. To libertarians, an individual human being is sovereign over his/her body, extending to life, liberty and property.[7] As such, libertarians define liberty as being completely free in action, whilst not initiating force or fraud against the life, liberty or property of another human being. This is otherwise known as the non-aggression principle.[8][9]
Libertarians generally view constraints imposed by the state on persons or their property (if applicable), beyond the need to penalize infringement of one's rights by another, as a violation of liberty. Anarchist libertarians favor no governmental constraints at all, based on the assumption that rulers and laws are unnecessary because in the absence of government individuals will naturally form self-governing social bonds, rules, customs, codes, and contracts. In contrast, minarchist libertarians consider government necessary for the sole purpose of protecting the rights of the people. This includes protecting people and their property from the criminal acts of others, as well as providing for national defense.[10][11]
Libertarians generally defend the ideal of freedom from the perspective of how little one is constrained by authority, that is, how much one is allowed to do, which is referred to as negative liberty. This ideal is distinguished from a view of freedom focused on how much one is able to do, which is termed positive liberty, a distinction first noted by John Stuart Mill, and later described in fuller detail by Isaiah Berlin.[11]
Here's the deal in Eve-Online, acts of "piracy" are "allowed" with varying degree's of checks and balances. In "secure" system acts of aggression result in the smackdown by Concord (NPC Police).
In unsafe/lawless space there are no rules. do whatever you want but so can anyone else.
I'm mining in an asteroid belt in a "safe" "secure" system so no one can attack me BUT abstract acts of piracy aka "theft" can still happen and not be punished by Concord, however you as the player and your "guild" get a free pass for 14 minutes of blowing up the jerk.
And of course mining there are these people who try to steal my ore and "explicitly" target me (why oh why am I teased and picked on everywhere I go??? )
They try with varying degrees of success and failure to steal my ore, each time I come up with a way of making it harder for them, and each time they find a cleverer way of getting around it.
My objection to them stealing my property is answered by to paraphrase:
"l000lz juts a gam3 g3t @ |1f3"
and
"its completely virtual lol, nothing is real"
"it isnt illegal to steal other's people's stuff in game so it must be okay and of course that must obviously mean i have the right to steal your ore!"
Is also roughly what they were saying.
Is it so wrong to try to explain how even in a completely virtual world the time and energy spent accomplishing in game "feats" if you will or completing various tasks to improve my characters relative position denying my characters right to its labour is morally wrong from an libertarian perspective?
*note* if you try to use this in some way to attack my personal political beliefs not being directly discussed in my opening post don't, because a state following the ideology that I am in favour of would not steal your work and not give back anything in return (for those of you who think tax is theft) there is no apt comparison or analogy between them so any snarky comments keep to yourself, this is a philosophical discussion for mature people, any thoughts or opinions of how "l00lz Blayne got whats coming to him" remember that I know where you live so have a nice day
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Maybe you could pay someone to protect you while you mine? Then counter attack and steal their stuff if they still attack you.
Just try to find a way around it.
Posts: 113 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Oh yes there are dozens of ways around it, I happen to borrow my friends account and use it to haul my stuff before he can steal my ore but there are times that I dont or arent quick enough to alt tab between clients, the point I'm trying to make is that even if its a virtual world the people are STILL people and ethics arguable should still apply on how people act with each other in theory, but these people think virtual world == can be a jerk and get away with it... well not quite I did blow them up one time they did it but still.
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Personally, I am totally dizzy from trying to imagine how someone can be a libertarian and a China fanboi at the same time.
But anyway, getting back to your game problems: That's not your property, it belongs to whoever makes and runs Eve Online. So they, not you, get to say what can be done with it. And they have said that it's ok to mine it, and it's also ok to steal from the miners, with these limits. Perfect libertarian doctrine! Confucius he say, man that no like game, no have to play.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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One thing I've learned from the internet is that if people have an opportunity to be complete amoral jerkholes with no repercussions, many, many people will do so as often as possible.
I see this as a valuable lesson in human nature and the importance of laws and social regulation in real life.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Lie, cheat, steal, spy, and grind opposition to dust underfoot. Use every game mechanic possible to win, and this includes taking advantage of server overloads. Goonfleet drama Episode VII - "Remedial's Revenge" - proves this theory of mine:
quote:III. EvE online is Plato's allegorical PVP cave.
I never understood the appeal of EvE until I thought of it as a drama engine designed from the beginning to be fueled by neckbeard rage. But even better than that, it is the perfect engine of perspective and priority destruction. Not that this will effect everyone who plays, of course, (you could just be a perfectly sane dude who likes to play some laser gun space zap in his or her spare time and this is true of most players I am sure) but for some specific lucid examples it's just an excuse to go unhinged, stop caring about things in the real world more than they care about fantasy space ship world, and make the most dramatic and world-upending shit in their lives involve fantasy space money earned on fantasy space ships on a galaxy that exists on some silicone in a box in Reykjavík. I liken them to folks who are paying good money, metaphorically, to a metaphorical busker at the cave mouth, so that they can go down still metaphorically, through the cave mouth, pony up to some chains, and get engrossed over whose shadows are bigger or whose shadow ate whose. Metaphorically. This is either deep, or I'm f______ drunk. But seriously this Remedial guy has about certainly guaranteed that a tiff in a fantasy space world that cumulated in him stealing fantasy space money may end up being the most significant event of his life that will essentially define him and follow him for the rest of his active career.
posted
All online gaming follows the same pattern. Because there is no tangible individual personal accountablility in the realms of honor and being polite, certain portions of the populations of the online world will always be as much of a reprobate as they can be. The same issue applies to chat rooms, and forums. It even extends to large anonymous social situations such as driving.
People often have very different personalities when they know there are no reprocussions to their actions.
Posts: 686 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:"it isnt illegal to steal other's people's stuff in game so it must be okay and of course that must obviously mean i have the right to steal your ore!"
There are two sensible interpretations of this comment:
1) All those things which are not expressly forbidden by the threat of force are morally permissible. (Note: a true libertarian would find this assertion absolutely repugnant.)
2) We're playing a game, and it is morally permissible for me -- according to the rules and framework of the game as codified by its designers -- for me to engage in this behavior. This argument, in contrast, is perfectly valid. It's one thing for "griefers" to engage in behaviors that the developers did not expect or intend (and which they do not condone); people exploiting flaws in the system to make other players miserable are generally not welcome (although some devs, in some games, actually see this as a sign of creativity and tacitly approve of this behavior). But working within the rules of the game to "win" it is almost certainly okay. The problem here is that different players have different goals, which makes a MMO rather unlike, say, Monopoly. That's one reason some MMOs have RP-only servers, or PVP servers, or...
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:Personally, I am totally dizzy from trying to imagine how someone can be a libertarian and a China fanboi at the same time.
KOM beat me to the punch.
This situation was envisioned long before the game actually came out Blayne, and the game is designed with it in mind. Find a bigger corporation, and they will protect you while you mine. Obviously with their protection comes other considerations.
Do you ever consider that your teasing might get worse because of your reaction to it? From my own experience, I can say that you make it so easy and satisfying by the way you respond. Remember those threads you started on SR? I think you were trying to threaten me or something, but they were just the fruits of my labor. I enjoyed watching you blow up after I pushed your buttons.
I'm not saying that no fault lies in the teaser for doing the teasing, though. Certainly, it makes me a right bastard for picking on you. I enjoyed it far too much, really. I've stopped, because it stopped being fun when I realized you weren't picking anything up from it. You seemed to respond the same way each time and I actually felt sorry for you, because you didn't seem able to genuinely cope with it or adapt to it.
Here's my suggestion. If you feel the strong urge to type into game chat, forums, IM or whatever things along the lines of "d00d, uR so ghey!" or whatever it is you do, I'd highly recommend knocking it off. Those type of responses are exactly what the teaser is looking for. You are, essentially, providing the material. If you ignore it, then there's less the teaser has to work with and they'll be less likely to tease you. It may not go away completely (ignoring never works perfectly, as a truely good teaser can work with that too), but it definitely makes it harder.
Ultimately, developing a good repetoir of witty comebacks (don't quote from movies, just FYI, that's more food for the teasing machine) and being able to turn the teasing on the teaser will work best in keeping people from making fun of you.
This will work in Eve and in real life.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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You are playing a game, and those guys' behavior is explicitly allowed by the rules of that game.
You might as well get upset at a goalie in soccer/football for using his hands or at a knight in chess for daring to jump over other pieces.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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It has to be said that if you want to be in a world with a minimum of "illegal", immoral, or antisocial behavior, you've picked the wrong game. "Eve Online" is literally famous for the depth and scope of some of the player-initiated "criminal" activities. A non-trivial portion of the player base undoubtedly flocks to the game simply because heists of this size aren't possible within the framework of other games; at most, in most other games, one might scam a player into giving some currency or a valuable item, and possibly be punished and lose the proceeds for doing so.
All I can say is: find someone you trust to watch your back, don't expect anyone else to accept your morality as a reason not to profit from your distress, be glad whatever losses you suffer aren't worth over $16,000, and- sorry- if you can't accept the atmosphere of "Eve", find a game that has a robust model for dealing with antisocial behavior instead of one that borders on encouraging it.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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But this idea of gaming ethics is an interesting one, isn't it? Take Second Life, the MMO in which you can do just about anything.
In the Second Life world, various real-world groups can hold meetings. Gay Pride meetings, etc. If you use your game character to disrupt an in-game gay pride meeting, is that ethically equivalent to doing that in real life?
Posts: 1515 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:oh why am I teased and picked on everywhere I go???
The way you act paints a big target on you. This has been explained to you many times here. If you want it to stop happening, you need to change the way you do things.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:They try with varying degrees of success and failure to steal my ore, each time I come up with a way of making it harder for them, and each time they find a cleverer way of getting around it.
This actually sounds much more interesting to me than what I imagine mining to be like. I might be interested in playing a game where, say, you're playing the role of struggling miner/trader trying to eke out profits while fending off pirates and the like.
Maybe you should change your priorities. It's apparently an open-ended role playing game. You don't seem to be playing a character that this is happening to, but rather trying to meta-game to get yourself more "points".
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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When I was a child, my brothers and I played "Par-cheat-si", played with a normal Parchisi board.
The rules were identical to Parchisi but with one addition -- cheating is only against the rules if you got caught.
Now, my brothers and I never cheated when we played games, but we had a blast doing so when cheating was allowed.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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BB: It seems to me that in neutral space, outside the protection of Concord, you are in a State of Nature.
This is not libertarianism, but Anarchy.
Life is nasty, brutish and short. Libertarian morality doesn't apply. Do what you gotta do to survive, but don't QQ when you get pwnd.
Posts: 7085 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
some of you arent nessasarily getting the point I am not objecting to their ability to try to steal my ore I am merely objecting to their altitude about it.
And no I am pretty sure you ignored what I mentioned of blowing them to smitherines, getting pwned is easy to avoid in high sec systems.
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You're whining about them adhering to the rules and even spirit of the game. What attitude would you like them to have?
If the game is too rough for you, you shouldn't be playing it. The game isn't set up to protect your property for you, so trying to impose your pseudo-libetarian "Don't steal my stuff." isn't going to work and trying to make it is just going to make people want to gank you again.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
you have misread my post, if reading comprehension is to hard for you you shouldn't be on forums.
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quote:you have misread my post, if reading comprehension is to hard for you you shouldn't be on forums.
Blayne, Seriously, you are painting this gigantic target on yourself. If you don't want people to pick on you, you need to grow up. Or at least give up the insults like this. They may sound crushing and totally kick-ass in your head, but they come across much differently.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:some of you arent nessasarily getting the point I am not objecting to their ability to try to steal my ore I am merely objecting to their altitude about it.
"The Impotence Of Proofreading"
Also blayne your reaction to criticism basically guarantees that people are going to enjoy tooling with you until the end of time.Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Is it so wrong to try to explain how even in a completely virtual world the time and energy spent accomplishing in game "feats" if you will or completing various tasks to improve my characters relative position denying my characters right to its labour is morally wrong from an libertarian perspective?
Um, yes. That's wrong, in the sense that it will get you zero respect, won't work, and will get you laughed at and exploited some more. Most people play games to play a game, not to have serious moral discussions. That's what Hatrack is for. If I invade you in CK and demand some provinces, are you going to go off on riffs about how I shouldn't take away your hard-earned property?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I think someone should also mention that libertarianism goes quite a bit beyond the shallow "Don't Touch My Stuff!" that you seem to be employing here.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Blayne's such a Care Bear
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