I don't know rather to laugh or scream. In this list of "top" High Schools in the Country the following are excluded (I kid you not): 1. Private Schools of any sort 2. Schools with an average SAT above 1300.
The survey also does not test how well students did on AP and IB exams, only if they took them.
How can they claim that their list, which contains a collection of fairly obscure schools, represents the élite of American education? Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I guess I can see exclusing the private ones, but what kind of sense does it make to exclude the ones with good SAT scores? Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I don't know rather to laugh or scream. In this list of "top" High Schools in the Country the following are excluded (I kid you not): 1. Private Schools of any sort 2. Schools with an average SAT above 1300.
The survey also does not test how well students did on AP and IB exams, only if they took them.
How can they claim that their list, which contains a collection of fairly obscure schools, represents the élite of American education?
If you'd read the FAQ, you would see that Mathews has responses for all of your questions and others.
For example, private schools are excluded because he cannot obtain enough data.
He only excludes charter or magnet schools with high SAT or ACT averages. And he does so because the goal of the Challenge Index is
quote:to honor schools that have done the best job in persuading average students to take college-level courses and tests. It does not work with schools that have no, or almost no, average students. The idea is to create a list that measures how good schools are in challenging all students, and not just how high their students’ test scores are.
And for only counting the number of tests given and not the results he says:
quote:I decided not to count passing rates in the way schools had done in the past because I found that most American high schools kept those rates artificially high by allowing only A students to take the courses. In some other instances, they opened the courses to all but encouraged only the best students to take the tests.
I remember when the Challenge Index first came out in the late 90s and reading how Mathews was very concerned with access to APs and IBs, and the differences between rich and poor districts. And it seems to me that a lot of his methodological choices reflect that concern. There's still plenty to argue and disagree with, but I think he does a decent job of justifying his methodology.
Posts: 959 | Registered: Jan 2002
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You know what I've noticed? Schools in this county that have really active PTSAs tend to be higher up (R.Montgomery and BCC) while schools with less active PTSAs are further down (like us in the six-or-seven-hundred-ish range). Those schools do tend to be the better ones in this district.
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As someone who graduated in good standing from #2 on the "Top U.S. Schools" List, I have to snort. I don't want to downplay my high school education, which I think was really quite good, and made intro college courses seem easy. . . but I really hope it's not the second best public high school education that could be acquired in this country.
I find the ranking, even using just the data they collected a little, uh, off? The top school has over 14 tests taken per graduating senior, yet only 1 in 10 graduating senior can claim a passing score? Ouch. I realize that quite of few of those tests may have been taking by student in lower year, but can still infer the seniors produced a *lot* non-passing scores. Are those kids actually prepared for success at college? Or life? Who knows?
Whereas number 5 on the list has half as many test taken per graduating senior, but 90% of the senior have passed a least one exam. Nice. Whether or not those students are actually prepared for college, they clearly learned *something* in at least one class. Shouldn't that school be higher on the list?
:Shrug: I certainly support the expansion of AP and IB programs so that any student who wants to take college level sources, can. I personally prefer the IB program which emphasized practical application, analysis, and writing. I know I did more formal lab work for my IB Bio class then most freshman bio majors at my college. AP does a pretty good job encouraging analytical skills, but I felt AP required more regurgitation of rote knowledge and "test taking skills". I noticed that some of my classmates who had perfectly good command of a subject in the classroom didn't "get" the AP test format. This observation perhaps contradicts my above point. Well, I know that my classmates didn't understand AP tests off the bat because we practiced taking tests in the AP format. I'm not sure what the final data for my class would have looked like.
I'm also confused about removing high schools with very high SAT averages. Surely students that been done well with college level material will on average do better on the SAT? Colleges certainly seem to think there is a link between success in college and high SAT scores. Is a reverse correlation not true?
Eh, just some thoughts....
Posts: 794 | Registered: Mar 2001
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My HS didn't seem to make the top 1200, and yet, here I am. I guess my HS had a handful of really smart kids, and a whole slew of dummies Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Many schools that want to be viewed as competitive just make everybody take certain AP courses (typically Calc + one of the English ones, plus maybe something else), and then mandate they take the test.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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The highschool that I graduated from was 459th on the list. I thought I got a really good education there, so I'm glad it made the list. Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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My husband went to a private school in the same town as school #6, and said they went out of their way to try to "recruit" him after he kicked their school's math team in one of those dorky test-taking competitions.
And I agree that IB provided a much better grounding in actual critical thinking skills than my AP classes did, and it was thanks to IB that I was so well prepared for college coursework. AP seemed far more focused on teaching to the test and writing essays judged purely on adherence to formula rather than content.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Texas encourages adolescents who don't test well to drop out so that highschools can pass "No Kids Left Behind" testing...
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Risuena, I read the FAQ before I posted this, and I can attest that it was aburd. If Newsweek wants to make a list of the public secondary schools with a lot of kids taking AP and IB exams, fine, but to refer to said list as representing the élite of American education is clearly disingenuous. This is sensationalism at its worst, writing headlines to sell papers rather than to inform as to the actual content of them, even though, in this case, the headline is very damaging to schools which did not make the list becouse of the requirements which deliberetly exclude them. I am not a great reader of Newsweek, but this has done little to incourage my consumption of U.S. media.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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my high school is 319 on the list. Not too shabby. (I can't actually get the whole list; I searched my HS's name, and of course they brag about it on their website's front page.)
So why did so many of us get such a crappy education there? I really can only list a few classes that taught me anything...
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process. There are plenty of kids at my high school and the others in the district that academically could have made it into that school, and I know a ton of kids from the IA who were complete failures.
And this wasn't covered on there, but the IA has no school dances or sports, you have to go to one of the "lesser" high schools in the district in order to do extra curriculars. I'm not sure about bands or orchestra, I would assume they do in fact have them.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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My opinion of Newsweek/U.S. news ranking systems is pretty low in general. A big chunk of the assesment for colleges and univeristies is a survey that asks deans of other schools what scores they would give said school. Huh?
Obviously schools that have good reputations (like Ivy league) tend to maintain that reputation unless something drastic changes. Whereas newer schools that are working hard to create really good programs may not get noticed just because they don't have established names. The ranking for professional schools is even more useless and elitist, in my opinion, and I know law students that have chosed their school based on U.S. News rankings.
That said, I think examining which high schools give student solid college prep is a good thing. AP and IB classes can be great oppurtunities for students. I just don't think this ranking system does a great job of actually assessing student preperation for college or what they are getting out of their classes.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Mar 2001
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What the frack? There were a grand total of 3 Indiana schools in that entire 1300. They were all rich Indianapolis schools. If he's trying to honor schools who do well with what they've got, he needs to get the frell away from rich schools. And I musta seen a billion schools Ill., NY, Texas, etc. I have little to no respect for that survey now.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Newsweek also rated my college insanely high. They should have taken off points because it was in Nebraska. Hello, anyone there? NEBRASKA for heaven's sake!
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Yeah, Lyrhawn, I agree with you 100% there. I have two friends going to IA right now- and while they are both good students, I doubt either of them would think that their school is top 10 worthy.
You basically have to apply there, and like Lyrhawn said, while it doesn't cost any money, you also just can't waltz right in and attend.
They don't have any sports teams either, and I think most of the kids that do sports there play in the district I go to, or possibly any other ones around here.
Posts: 879 | Registered: Apr 2005
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When you consider how populous California, New York, Texas, and Florida are, I think Virginia has a strong case to claim the best education system in the country! Of course, that's if this system of ranking is meaningful in any real way. My high school is in the top 100, so I'm going to say it is to some degree. Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I didn't look through all 1300 but I agree with Alcon, little respect now. Which three rich indy schools was it?
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process.
Sounds like a magnet school to me. It's administered by the school district, right? That would make it a public school.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Originally posted by fugu13: Many schools that want to be viewed as competitive just make everybody take certain AP courses (typically Calc + one of the English ones, plus maybe something else), and then mandate they take the test.
This is quite true. I was made to think that a high score on the A.P. Lit test was very common at my school, and a practical must have for going to a good college. I had already gotten a 4 on Language/comp, and a 4 on government, but when it came around to the lit test I sucked it up and read hard for the whole year...
Anyway I ended up getting a 5, and only found out after I graduated that it was the first 5 at my school in around 10 years.... so I guess they had overstated just how vital it was.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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AP tests were far more valuable to me than SAT scores. I got out of several intro level college courses based on my AP tests. That allowed me to get a lot more education for my buck than I would have otherwise.
I wish my HS would have pushed AP tests more, and SATs less. I would have taken 3-4 more APs, had I known what a difference they would have made.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Isn't that supposed to be a list of PUBLIC high schools? Or is it a mix of private and public?
Number 9 on the list, the International Academy isn't a public school in the way I think of them. A good friend of mine went there (instead of the two public high schools she should have chosen between, one of which I went to). But she had to go through an admissions process rivaled only by what she had to go through when she applied to a college. It's true that the academics there are friggin outstanding, students graduate with an IB usually. Despite the fact that it's tuition free, I wouldn't consider it public unless ANYONE can go there, not just anyone who gets past an admissions process.
Sounds like a magnet school to me. It's administered by the school district, right? That would make it a public school.
A consortium of 13 different districts I believe.
Still, I'm leery of a system that uses public funds to fund a really good school, that only lets the "best of the best" attend, and shortchanges the perhaps lesser equipped or just plain unlucky kids. What message does that send to kids? Hope you're smart or your parents have connections, otherwise you're screwed.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Alcon: What the frack? There were a grand total of 3 Indiana schools in that entire 1300. They were all rich Indianapolis schools. If he's trying to honor schools who do well with what they've got, he needs to get the frell away from rich schools. And I musta seen a billion schools Ill., NY, Texas, etc. I have little to no respect for that survey now.
Yeah. Can't schools who have enough money to pay for everyone to take AP tests just automatically get high ratings on that list? AP tests are very expensive, I wouldn't blame people for not taking them because they can't AFFORD them.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Jul 2003
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I'm not sure how much the AP tests actually cost, but they were only $10 at my school (same as Alcon's) though that does add up if you are taking quite a few.
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5 AP tests, even if they were $100 each, could equal a whole semester of entry-level college classes that you don't have to take. Well worth the investment.
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For me its 82 dollars for each AP test. I suppose it could be worth it in the long run if you pass them.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Jul 2003
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sarah: only a few of them were $10, since they were subsidized by the school.
Also, Alcon, there are more than three Indiana schools on the overall list. I think it was five, and one was in evansville, and the other whereever the indiana academy is (since it was on the list).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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AP tests were something like $50 at my school. I took three of them, and even though I got threes or higher on all of them, I still only got credit for the one that I got a four on at my college, but that one four saved me from taking two writing classes required of every freshman and sophmore, so it was more than worth it, even though I felt screwed out of the other two classes that I felt I should've gotten credit for.
Regardless, if you think you have a chance at doing reasonably well, I'd call it an investment in future tuition costs.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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The Newsweek Top High Schools issue always, without fail, makes me laugh hysterically.
I went to a magnet H.S. in Chicago and the principal was always going on and on about how our school was the #1 school in the city. Blah, blah, blah. I hated H.S. (possibly because I went to the 7/8th grade program; there is nothing quite like going to a H.S. when you're 12) but I will admit that it made college seem like a breeze. That or I was taking a nice 4 year nap.
At any rate, my H.S. never makes it onto that list. I am always tempted to send those issues to my former principal with a small note about how WRONG she is/was.
Question: Was anyone else's H.S. administration run by former gym teachers or is that just a Chicago institution?
Posts: 511 | Registered: Mar 2006
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The fact that Montclair High School is 211 on that list is either,
a) a sad commentary on the standards used to generate this list, or
b) a sad commentary on the state of education in this country.
I'm not sure which.
Having taught in Montclair for three years, I can tell you the high school has no business being on the list at all, let alone in the top 20 percent.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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The fact that Montclair is the 8th best ranked school in NJ is an even bigger joke. I mean, MHS at 211 and Governor Livingston at 882? That's ridiculous.
That's like ranking Rutgers as the 8th best basketball team in the country, and Duke as 45th.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Question: Was anyone else's H.S. administration run by former gym teachers or is that just a Chicago institution?
This is actually quite common.
Gym teachers have far less "out of the classroom" work to do when compared with other teachers. They don't have the amount of papers to grade as english or social science teachers, or the amount of labs and tests to grade as math or science teachers. Less time is needed before and after school, and parent correspondence is often next to nothing.
In short, physical education teachers have more time to take college courses toward getting their administrative certification. I've also seen a trend of special education teachers getting admin certs, too.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: 5 AP tests, even if they were $100 each, could equal a whole semester of entry-level college classes that you don't have to take. Well worth the investment.
It rarely works out that way though. For instance many students do two English Aps, or gov and history, but it only cancels one class in college, there is no doubling up. Also you can take a bunch of bio and math Aps and have it not matter because you are in a liberal arts major.
The truth about Aps allowing you to "skip" ahead in college doesn't measure up to the hype. It gets you out of a few intro classes, but it isn't going to put you a year ahead in your -real- education. Learning how to be a good student often takes this much time when you get to college, and many people never learn anything- I meet them every day.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by FlyingCow: [QUOTE] In short, physical education teachers have more time to take college courses toward getting their administrative certification. I've also seen a trend of special education teachers getting admin certs, too.
Parallel with the common wisdoms: Football and basketball coaches are Math teachers, but Science and English teachers are track coaches. That was the way it always was at my school.
Also yah, phys ed people and deans of students moved up to admin, while teachers with more rewarding classroom jobs stayed put.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: t rarely works out that way though. For instance many students do two English Aps, or gov and history, but it only cancels one class in college, there is no doubling up. Also you can take a bunch of bio and math Aps and have it not matter because you are in a liberal arts major.
The truth about Aps allowing you to "skip" ahead in college doesn't measure up to the hype. It gets you out of a few intro classes, but it isn't going to put you a year ahead in your -real- education. Learning how to be a good student often takes this much time when you get to college, and many people never learn anything- I meet them every day.
Poo poo it all you like, but I skipped out of 2 semesters of intro Bio, didn't have to take Calc, didn't have to take intro history, and got credit for 2 semesters of basic lit courses by taking 4 AP tests.
I got to register for classes each semester before 99% of the people in my class, meaning that I got to pick my schedule, my teachers, and my labs without having to every have a backup. I also got to skip out of difficult classes which wouldn't have furthered my academic goals, but would have taken study time away from the classes I really cared about.
The time and money I invested in those 4 AP tests was worth essentially an entire college semester for me. Not only did it save several thousand dollars in tuition costs, but it gave me more time to take electives, more ability to get the classes I needed, and the ability to set my schedule any way I wanted.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I completely agree with MightyCow on this one. The extra units meant I could register earlier than my classmates. Being as colleges these days never seem to offer enough of the classes in high demand, I found this invaluable.
And with three AP exams, I passed out of a business statistics class, my natural science core, my math core, and my social science core. I got to start on my philosophy major earlier and didn't have to bother with lower-division courses in fields in which I had little interest.
Without those AP exams, I'd never be able to graduate with a double major across schools and a minor.
Posts: 866 | Registered: Aug 2005
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I managed to avoid the basic "expos writing" requirement was one of the most poorly taught courses in the school, gained 3 credits in history, and managed to "place out" of my entire mathematics requirement - I placed in to their Calc class satisfying half of it, then placed out of that class with my AP score, satisfying the other half. I didn't have to take a math course at college whatsoever.
And I had a similar experience to MightyCow, in that those 10 credits allowed me more flexibility in scheduling and housing, because after overloading my first two semesters, I was essentially 16 credits ahead of most of my classmates.
I had friends who came into college with 30 AP credits or more, starting effectively as sophomores, and a guy I met while studying abroad had managed 62 AP credits in high school and entered school effectively as a junior. These students jumped immediately to Calc 3 as freshmen, and avoided the "weed-out" classes of Physics, Chem and Bio 101.
All these people were math and science majors, though. Most of the liberal arts folks like myself didn't have so many AP credits, and having so many wouldn't have really helped satisfy that many requirements.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Texas encourages adolescents who don't test well to drop out so that highschools can pass "No Kids Left Behind" testing...
I think that's actually one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Yeah - schools love high drop out rates - only graduating half the freshman is a sign of a very good school.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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I got out of all sorts of requirements getting in my way through AP credit. The school I'm at has a pretty decent lab sciences requirement -- AP Physics (both) and AP Biology got me out of that (and the credit hours for lab sciences would have been hard to fit into my schedule given my other interests and being a transfer student). AP Microeconomics let me take Intermediate Microeconomics right away instead of wasting my time in intro. AP Calc (both) made it so my math minor (it started out as a math major at another school, but this is still true) basically fell into my lap.
I took some other AP tests, but I think those're the ones that benefitted me. The AP Lang and AP Lit tests weren't much of a benefit because of my SAT II Writing score, and I had scores just below cutoffs on some others.
I didn't even take the classes for several of my AP tests, there's no requirement you do so. I just studied up on the subjects.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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My AP classes got me out of exactly two classes - Engligh 101, and British lit survey class. The chemistry and biology would have gotten me out of the general ed biology and chemistry classes, but I took the series for majors for both for my minors. Basically, because I had several areas I focused on, the biology and chemistry and psychology for non majors didn't help at all.
I got to register earlier. That was nice. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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And only graduating half the freshmen isn't a sign of a good high school, its a sign of a poor (in the sense of wealth) one, but I can't tell if you were being sarcastic.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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