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Author Topic: Completely irrational pet peeves that I should probably rethink but currently bug me
katharina
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When a writer writes a novel in the present tense. I don't feel more drawn into the story - I feel like I'm in the midst of editing the first draft of a fan fic by a twelve-year-old. Good writing will be immediate without making me nervous with the tenses, people!
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Noemon
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I once had an incredibly pompous roommate who claimed to prefer only fiction written in the second person. I think he'd read an Italo Calvino story that was written in that way, and had decided that this made him special. As I recall, another of my roommates asserted that what he was really saying was that he had a passionate love for choose-your-own-adventure novels. Pompous roommate was put out by this assertion.
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Teshi
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I think that like other unusual writing styles, it can be done badly and can be done well. It can be appropriate I have read several books like this when I've completely forgotten it's in the present tense. To me, it doesn't actually really change the immediacy much, but makes it more movie-like. I guess because scripts are written like that.

I only say this because I have written a short story in the present tense. It happened by mistake, I swear! It just came out like that!

It's the only story I've ever had published. I guess they thought it was artsy or something.

Heheheheh.

quote:
who claimed to prefer only fiction written in the second person.
I own a book I love (Plowing the Dark by Richard Powers) that has sections written in second person. "You" were held as a hostage for years. But it worked, it really did. I think it depends on the writer, and how it is used.
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dkw
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I'm trying to think if I've ever read a novel written in the present tense. I can't think of a one right now.
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katharina
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I'm reading The Namesake for my book club (book club! I love DC) and it is written in the present tense. The girl who championed it claimed she loved the book, so I'm still giving it a shot. The present tense does not bode well, however.
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Pelegius
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Large portions of many books are writen in second person, Jane Eyre for example. But I can't think of any writen entirely in second person.
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Bokonon
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Well, most of HP Lovecraft's stories are present tense retellings of harrowing adventures. Don't know if that counts. [Smile]

-Bok

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twinky
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William Gibson and Neal Stephenson have both used present tense in fairly significant doses, IIRC. It certainly never bothered me.
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John Van Pelt
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Present tense is used to good effect in Stephenson's Cryptonomicon.

Here it serves a particular purpose: the story is told in interleaved episodes that jump back and forth between the 1940's and the present, and some of the modern characters are children and grandchildren of, or older versions of, the wartime characters.

Present tense was a brilliant choice (IMO) because it allows the events in each timeframe to come fully to life in their own right with the immediacy of the 'present.'

In a conventional past-tense narrative, the 'past' is often intentionally genericized; in other words, the reader is not meant to carry around with them a specific understanding of exactly how long ago in the past the events occured. It is just a story device.

In Stephenson's story, a past-tense narrative voice would have introduced the needless risk of constantly provoking in the reader's mind an awareness of the fact that this 1941 "he went" is in a more distant past than this 1998 "he went."

A prerequisite of this treatment, which Stephenson executes flawlessly, is that the few times when past tense is necessary the transitions must be seamless. I recommend this book to any writer interested in studying 'tense' treatments.

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katharina
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The whole book is in the present tense. [Frown] I don't like it - it's like the author is making it up as she goes along. That's okay, but I suppose I like the idea of reading a story isntead of a diary. This is more like a stream of conciousness writing, which I'm not a fan of.
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vonk
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I just finished reading Camus' A Happy Death and, as I recall, it is entirely in present tense. I liked the story, but you are right, it does feel like it is stream of conscious; as if you were hearing a story being told, not reading one that has been edited countless times. But then, I like story telling and folktales, and many are told in present tense.

Tom Robbins' Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas was written in second person, and it was a little awkward. Especially when the novel was telling me about the bra and panties I was putting on. I definitely removed me from the story quite a bit, which, I believe, is the opposite of the intend.

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John Van Pelt
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Well, I don't expect to erase anyone's pet peeve [Smile]

I probably believe present tense is easier to do poorly, and you may have encountered a few of those; I'd simply reiterate that there are valid reasons to attempt to do it well, and that some writers succeed. You may not be interested in doing so, but the next time you encounter such, rather than automatically descending into pet-peevishness, try to see the good side.

That said, you are right -- present tense, as well as first person, and especially first-person/present-tense [Eek!] , lend themselves to stream-of-consciousness-type narratives. I wonder if your objection is actually more with that type of story than with the particular narrative mechanism used.

Can you think of a third-person/past-tense story you enjoyed, that explored a lot of inner consciousness themes?

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katharina
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quote:
Can you think of a third-person/past-tense story you enjoyed, that explored a lot of inner consciousness themes?
Ender's Game? I think a lot of Card's work would fall under that description. I liked most of those.

This present book is not actually stream of consciousness writing, because I know very little about the main character.

In fact, I'm going to type a paragraph as an example. it isn't bad writing -it's just the tense that's bugging me. I don't see a reason for it.

Breaking communication conventions for a purpose = art, and glorious

Breaking communication conventions for its own sake to sound different = irritating

Maybe I'll understand the reason for it soon.
quote:
Her obstetrician, Dr. Ashley, gauntly handsome in a Lord Mountbatten sort of way, with fine sand-colored hair swept back from his temples, arrives to examine her progress. The baby's head is in the proper position, has already begun its descent. She is told that she is still in early labor, three centimeters dilated, beginning to efface. "What does it mean, dilated?" she asks, and Dr. Ashley holds up two fingers side by side then drawn them apart, explaining the unimaginable thing her body must do in order for the baby to pass. The process will take some time, Dr. Ashley tells her; giving that this is her first pregnancy, labor can take twenty-four hours, sometimes more. She searches for Ashoke's face, but he has stepped behind the curtain the doctor has drawn. "I'll be back." Ashoke says to her in Bengali, and then a nurse adds: "Don't you worry, Mr. Ganguli. She's got a long ways to go. We can take over from here."


[ August 22, 2006, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Synesthesia
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I dislike stories about pathetic people, but one i read for a bookclub called What was she Thinking was so interesting despite the fact that I hated every character.
I hate a book where some stupid impossible thing happens and it's in the real world. Not a lot of books can pull this off. I read this one book called Ex Utero which just annoyed me and i doubt I should type out the exact reasons why it bugged me so much. It was just so stupid.

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John Van Pelt
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I thought you might mention Card. All my copies are at Sharpie's house, so comment on that will have to wait [Smile]

As for your quote: Ugh. May I say? Ugh.

There is more wrong there than I can shake a stick at, and you are right: the choice of present tense exacerbates the other problems (point-of-view, un-taut verbiage, etc.)

I'll have to think more about how to express what I see as the difference between this and, say, Cryptonomicon. Your example is very grating.

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katharina
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[Smile] It's nice to hear that the present tense can be written well. Is there any chance you could post a quote out of Crytonomicon? I have read The Diamond Age, but I don't remember that book being written in the present tense.
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ketchupqueen
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*feels ashamed because now she wants to read Katie's book*
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katharina
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Hey, it came highly reccomended and the above quote is from the first five pages. I don't think that's a bad thing to want to read it. [Smile]

The writer is from India. Maybe that's the reason for the odd style? I might enjoy it more if I think of it as a cultural experience.

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ketchupqueen
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See, that's what I was thinking-- it sounds like an interesting cultural experience to me. I'm reading a whooole bunch of books by Indian writers right now.
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John Van Pelt
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kq, I don't think you should feel ashamed. I am in the process of reinventing myself as a writer and I am reading everything hypercritically.
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John Van Pelt
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katharina, I want to quote from Crypto, but my copy appears to be at Sharpie's house, too (and she's on vacation).

Yet another reason to want to finish moving! (As if I need more.) [Smile]

If I can get cooperation of a child, I may quote some tonight (both Card and Stephenson).

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twinky
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If you can't quote Stephenson tonight, I've got copies of both Cryptonomicon and Snow Crash at home and can do so.

For example, Lawrence's discussion of variable mental acuity and correlations... [Big Grin]

[Added a couple of words to the last sentence.]

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John Van Pelt
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From this site.
quote:
Two tires fly. Two wail.
A bamboo grove, all chopped down
From it, warring songs


....IS THE BEST THAT CORPORAL BOBBY SHAFTOE CAN DO ON short notice--he's standing on the running board, gripping his Springfield with one hand and the rearview mirror with the other, so counting the syllables on his fingers is out of the question. Is ``tires'' one syllable or two? How about ``wail?'' The truck finally makes up its mind not to tip over, and thuds back onto four wheels. The wail--and the moment--are lost. Bobby can still hear the coolies singing, though, and now too there's the gunlike snicking of the truck's clutch linkage as Private Wiley downshifts. Could Wiley be losing his nerve? And, in the back, under the tarps, a ton and a half of file cabinets clanking, code books slaloming, fuel spanking the tanks of Station Alpha's electrical generator. The modern world's hell on haiku writers...

This is the novel's opening. It exemplifies what you probably think of first, in present tense: the immediacy of a suspenseful situation.
quote:
Randy stares out the window of the Manila-bound 747, sipping on a fluorescent green Nipponese soft drink made from bee extracts (at least, it has pictures of bees on it) and munching on something that a flight attendant handed him called Japanese Snack. Sky and ocean are the same color, a shade of blue that makes his teeth freeze. The plane is so high that, whether he looks up or down, he sees foreshortened views of boiling cumulonimbus stacks. The clouds erupt from the hot Pacific as if immense warships were exploding all over the place. The speed and power of their growth is alarming, the forms they adopt as bizarre and varied as those of deep-sea organisms, and all of them, he supposes, are as dangerous to an airplane as punji stakes to a barefoot pedestrian. The red-orange meatball painted on the wingtip startles him when he notices it. He feels like he's been thrown into an old war film.
I picked this passage for two reasons. First of all, in juxtaposition with the first quote, it exemplifies the point I made earlier about hopping between the WWII era and the present. Do you see how the use of tense forces both eras equally into an immediate present? You may dislike it, it may not work as well as you'd like, but it is crucial for this story that the older era not feel like flashbacks, especially since some of the characters live in both eras. Stephenson cannot afford to have it seem that the present-day characters are somehow 'remembering' the earlier events.

The other reason I chose this passage is to show the interplay of tense with point-of-view. "The clouds erupt from the hot Pacific...," in present tense, is much more clearly a product of Randy's perception, rather than a description imposed by an omniscient narrator. Stephenson presses this advantage again and again to amazing effect -- and it is where the author of the passage you quoted slips up. Is "gauntly handsome in a Lord Mountbatten sort of way, with fine sand-colored hair swept back from his temples" the way the protagonist would express herself? Is it even what she would be noticing at that moment? The description throws the reader firmly into the voice of an omniscient narrator, destroying the potential immediacy of the present-tense device.
quote:
Ordo can handle this in one of two ways. The obvious way is to decrypt all of the messages and convert them into plaintext files on his hard disk, which he can then read any time he wants. The problem with this (if you are paranoid) is that anyone who gets his hands on Randy's hard disk can then read the files. For all he knows, the customs officials in Manila will decide to ransack his computer for child pornography. Or, fogged by jet lag, he'll leave his laptop in a taxi. So instead he puts Ordo into a streaming mode where it will decrypt the files just long enough for him to read them and then, when he closes the windows, expunge the plaintext from the computer's memory and from its hard drive.
This passage illustrates another reason why present tense was an essential choice for this book. It may not be to your taste, but there are quite a few geeky passages where cryptographic principles are explained. The thing is, present tense is exactly the way this is best done (picture a college lecturer -- or look at my explanations here). And in a book with conventional past-tense narration, present-tense exposition has to be put into a character's mouth as dialog, which is even harder to do well. This approach allows the geeky bits to flow seamlessly between 'narration' and 'internal dialog', and as a result, interrupt the story less.
quote:
Twenty seconds later, a comet sails up out of the flesh cosmos of the Bund and bounces on the wooden deck of the gunboat--a hell of a throw. Goto Dengo is showing off his follow-through. The projectile is a rock with a white streamer wrapped around it. Shaftoe runs over and snatches it. The streamer is one of those thousand-stitch headbands (supposedly; he's taken a few off of unconscious Nips, but he's never bothered to count the stitches) that they tie around their heads as a good-luck charm; it has a meatball in the center and some Nip writing to either side. He unties it from around the rock. In so doing he realizes, suddenly, that it's not a rock after all; it is a hand grenade! But good old Goto Dengo was just joking--he didn't pull the pin. A nice souvenir for Bobby Shaftoe.

Shaftoe's first haiku (December 1940) was a quick and dirty adaptation of the Marine Creed:

This is my rifle
There are many like it but
This rifle is mine.


He wrote it under the following circumstances: Shaftoe and the rest of Fourth Marines were stationed in Shanghai so that they could guard the International Settlement and work as muscle on the gunboats of the Yangtze River Patrol. His platoon had just come back from the Last Patrol...

This selection illustrates a transition from present tense to past tense. This introduces an extended section in conventional past tense, giving the entire back story of Shaftoe's relationship with Goto Dengo.

But watch how Stephenson brings it back to the present, several pages later!:
quote:
In return, Shaftoe taught Goto Dengo how not to throw like a girl. A lot of the Nips are good at baseball and so it was hilarious, even to them, to see their burly friend pushing ineffectually at a baseball. But it was Shaftoe who taught Goto Dengo to stand sideways, to rotate his shoulders, and to follow through. He's paid a lot of attention to the big Nip's throwing form during the last year, and maybe that's why the image of Goto Dengo planting his feet on the ashlars of the Bund, winding up, throwing the streamer-wrapped grenade, and following through almost daintily on one combat-booted foot stays in Shaftoe's mind all the way to Manila and beyond.
Sorry, but that's ART. [Smile]
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katharina
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I LOVE the last paragragh. The transition was very smooth and well done and it definitely signals the time change. Okay - that's done for a reason.
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dkw
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I'm about halfway through The Time Traveler's Wife which is present tense and first person (alternating viewpoints) and absolutely wonderful.

But perception of time is part of the point, so like in Cryptonomicon the tense choice serves the story rather than seeming like a gimmick.

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