posted
I went to church in my new ward yesterday. I have been going to a family ward in Fairfax county, but I moved on Saturday and will be attending church with Matt, who goes to a singles ward. So, I went, made friends, talked to the bishop, and realized something.
I'm suddenly not as special.
I sat in the final meeting, looked around, and realized that there were 200 other females who, apparently, are the following:
young professional educated comfortable well-dressed pretty Mormon returned missionary (not all, but a signifigant portion) well-read
Oh my stars. On the one hand, I am absolutely delighted. I feel more at home now than I think I've felt since I sat in my history classes at Utah State. I've found my people. There are friend possibilities all over the place, and I'm very, very glad.
There is, however, a little party of me that is thinking about freaking out. They are all me! I'm not special now! The combination of all the things above have made me slightly different from my peer group for the last five years, and suddenly that feeling of being set apart is no longer there. Instead of working to lower the possible barriers to understanding around me in both directions, I feel tremendously exposed. There's no hiding - we speak the same language. I met four women yesterday and two of them were writer/editors for the government.
There's suddenly not anything to set me apart. The only-daughter inside of me is protesting.
Hmm...they can't all be funny. I do have Funny. Not all the time and not hilarious, but sometimes. And now I'm grasping. Wow. This is such a weird feeling.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
It's a terrible thing when you start defining a part of "you" by the people who love and hate you. It means you're starting to grow up, and throw harpoons into the flesh of society.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
It seems like you're saying that defining ourselves by our relationships is something fundamentally different from defining ourselves by our skills and attributes, but I can't tell if you think it is a positive or negative difference.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kat- Which ward in Fairfax County? I ask because some close friends are in a ward in Sterling (Loudoun County)...
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm testing these thoughts out. I'm not sure I believe in them.
Defining ourselves by our relationships with others is fundamentally different from defining ourselves by our own skill and attributes. Our skills and attributes we control to a large extent. How others feel about us we can't always control.
I think it is, on the whole, positive to define ourselves by our relationships as well as by our capabilities. I think that there's enough fluidity in both those things not to put up barriers between them (I have a whole lot of buddy relationships that are predicated on my abilities, for example). By saying 'I am me and also you are a part of me,' I think we root ourselves more deeply in the community that we take part in. I call that positive.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
THT: Oakton ward, in (I think) the Vienna stake
SR: I think that's positive, as long as the relationships are not ephemeral. I think calling myself Mormon is defining myself by relationships - relationship to my community and to the Lord. That's still something I control, though, because the Lord and the church will always be there.
It's much, much scarier to define ourselves by our relationships with other people. Those can go away, and it's floundering. I think that's happened to me once. When my mother died and my family scattered, 90% of my relationships dissapeared or changed dramatically. It was a horrendous experience and I never want to go through that again. *musing* I wonder if that's part of my committment to being Mormon? Those are relationships that I know won't dissolve unless I choose for them to.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: It's much, much scarier to define ourselves by our relationships with other people. Those can go away
Yep, they can.
And not everyone is lucky enough to have parents/family/relatives who love them. Not everyone is lucky enough to be surrounded by anyone approaching good and decent as they grow up and, hopefully, mature. Not everyone is lucky enough to have good friends.
I know it can be argued that that's entirely in a person's control - the good friends bit - all they have to do to have good friends is to be a good friend. I would agree with that most or some of the time, but there are exceptions. There are always exceptions.
I would hate to define myself according to my relationships, past or present, with others. Wait, I already do... My mistake...
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
quote:I know it can be argued that that's entirely in a person's control - the good friends bit - all they have to do to have good friends is to be a good friend. I would agree with that most or some of the time, but there are exceptions. There are always exceptions.
I absolutely don't believe this. It's entirely possible to be a great person and a great friend, but not be around the type of people who can recognize, understand, or appreciate great friends. I think this happens enough to resist the label "exception".
In such a cases, fixing things is not entirely out of the person's control, but what needs to be done is to change one's circle, not try to follow up cast pearls with rubies or diamonds.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Katharina, I know a bit how you feel. I'm in a family ward and I'm married with 4 kids and I got married before I finished my degree. In other words, I fit right in. They're me. But they're better housekeepers.
I used to be smart. Then I joined Hatrack. Now more and more I have to ask for things to be explained. I've lost that part of my identity in a sea of gifted, college-at-15, well-read, bilingual teachers.
I'm only special to my parents and my immediate family. Thankfully I do have that. But how do you define yourself if it's not by your talents/skills and your relationships? "I am a child of God" isn't very specific, is it?
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't know, exactly. The combination? They are all me, but not in the exact same combination and in the same porportions as me. Add in my backstory, and that's slightly different.
The other alternative, of course, is to be the best at it. The most well-read, the funniest, the best-educated, the prettiest. I don't want to do that, though, because I don't want to be in competition with these women - I want to be friends. I have not lost anything except a self-concept.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:how do you define yourself if it's not by your talents/skills and your relationships?
Well, you could become a Democrat. Then you'd be unique...
I'm skeptical about the phrase "defining oneself." Can anyone explain why it's necessary? If I like steamed asparagus, and you like steamed asparagus, and all the people I know like steamed asparagus... should I really fell less valuable?
kat: Yep, early nineties.
Posts: 14554 | Registered: Dec 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by katharina: I don't know, exactly. The combination? They are all me, but not in the exact same combination and in the same porportions as me. Add in my backstory, and that's slightly different.
The other alternative, of course, is to be the best at it. The most well-read, the funniest, the best-educated, the prettiest. I don't want to do that, though, because I don't want to be in competition with these women - I want to be friends. I have not lost anything except a self-concept.
kat, you are usually very well spoken, and I like to hear what you have to say most of the time, even if I don't agree with it.
But the second part of that quote may be the the smartest and wisest thing I have heard you say. Too many people, men and women, get so caught up in competing with each other that they forget they are (or could be) friends, and end up losing opportunities over it.
I am competitive to be sure, but there has to be a point to it for me. Learning the point you brought up there was one of the best "life lessons" I have ever learned. Realizing it made my life a lot easier, and a lot more fun.
And without a doubt made me a lot easier to be around as well. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
I think because people **wild generalizatioins coming** need to both belong and to be distinguished. Like...like rappers need to both prove that they belong to a certain and to prove that they are the baddest &%#@$*& #$@%&*$ in that group.
Part of the shock of changing venues is reestablishing one's place in it. My niche is filled. In fact, every female I have met so far is in my niche. Clearly I need to re-adapt, but I'm not sure how right now.
I don't know what the guys are like. It is easier to make friends with other women at church because if I introduce myself, there's not a question of maybe I'm hitting on them.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote:I'm skeptical about the phrase "defining oneself." Can anyone explain why it's necessary? If I like steamed asparagus, and you like steamed asparagus, and all the people I know like steamed asparagus... should I really fell less valuable?
I think that if all your life you have been the only one around who ate steamed asparagus, it is a reasonable response for you to be thrown for a minute when you come to a place where everyone loves steamed asparagus and eats it every day. It doesn't have to throw you into a neverending downward spiral of despair, but a moment of disorientation and thinking, "I guess I'm not The Guy Who Likes Asparagus anymore..." is fair enough. Just saying. Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote: I wonder if that's part of my committment to being Mormon? Those are relationships that I know won't dissolve unless I choose for them to.
I thought this was interesting. I once tried to explain to a friend why I continued to go to church in spite of fairly large questions. I finally told him that it was something that never changed that was a constant in my inconstant life. I have always felt my life is in transition and that there was actually very little permanence in it. Since that time I have become worried that what remains of my "faith" is actually not at all faith but just some desire for continuity that I have never achieved in my own life.
In fact I also view myself as constantly changing. I think for a long time I used the Church as a way to define myself even though the definition often didn't seem to fit and was slightly contradictory.
Sorry, this is slightly off topic.
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged |
I think it is part of the reason for my committment to the church. I think there are many reasons for my commitment, and the main one is because of answers to prayers and because I believe it, but I don't think it is a bad thing that I am tied in other ways as well. I started out with questions, but once the questions were answered, I think it's okay that I've grown roots.
It's like dependency. I don't actually think that co-dependency in a marriage is a bad idea, as long as it's a good relationship. If someone's an alcoholic or really awful to their spouse, then dependency would be bad, but if both are healthy people, then a habit of being married is another strengthener to the relationship.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just curious--what made you decide to make the change? To be with Matt more? (of course don't answer if that's too nosey of me.) I went the other direction--attended a singles ward for years in Northern VA, then moved to a family ward (in another stake in Fairfax County!). For me, it was just time--I was getting older, most of my friends were married, and didn't feel I had as much in common with the people in the singles ward anymore. It was a good change for me.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Ooohh...you're going to feel bad when I answer. Don't, though - it's okay.
I moved because Matt and were planning on getting married in August and he's in grad school and is not mobile. He called off the wedding after I got here.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I do remember his "this is not a breakup" post. Sorry, I didn't mean to pry into the relationship, just curious about the ward switch. So when you first moved to VA were you attending the family ward rather than his singles ward because that's where you were planning to be after you got married?
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't seem to have the problem (ever) of meeting lots of people (or anyone at all) who is much like me. I can understand your twofold feelings, though. On the one hand, wow, you're home! You fit in! On the other hand, maybe a little disappointment that you aren't as hardcore as you thought?
I think I had that same feeling when we did the geek points thread long ago on hatrack. I figured I'd be the geekiest, hands down, though I knew Richard Berg would be some competition. Instead I was simply astonished and google eyed over the geekiness displayed by the group as a whole, and especially Dr. Rabbit, to whom I bow in worship! She out-geeked me totally. And I was delighted! I wasn't as geeky as I thought, but also a bit deflated. <laughs> I'm not really all that hardcore after all, you know? Totally simultaneous feelings of relief and disappointment. Which made me laugh a lot.
As for why I stay with the church, it's mainly because it's true. And because my relationship with God has changed me in dozens of ways and they're all good. Someday I will be active again, too, beyond the personal stuff like tithing, reading scriptures, reading the Ensign, and prayer. For right now it's more than I can manage, but I know it's coming that I will hold callings again and attend sacrament meeting more regularly, and even go to the temple. If I get married I would love to go to the temple, if my husband is LDS. I want an eternal family. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:It's a terrible thing when you start defining a part of "you" by the people who love and hate you. It means you're starting to grow up, and throw harpoons into the flesh of society.
This statement made me think a lot. It certainly is undesirable to base one's concept of self entirely on other people. I think it would also be undesirable to try to divorce the effects of other people on one's concept of self. Being social creatures, we desire interaction with others and, to some extent, these interactions refine (and sometimes even change) who we are. In thinking about myself, I think I am the same person I was before I got married, but in getting married, who I am has grown to include my role as wife and, specifically, my role as slacker's wife. I am not necessarily different than I was then, I think I am more than I was then. I think the same thing is true for anyone and the significant relationships in their life.
I think it is a good thing that you've found more people like yourself - hopefully it will do just what you alluded to - increase your circle of friends. I'm still working on finding people like myself so I can do the same. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I hadn't heard about you and Matt not getting married in August, though a phrase in your Galacticcactus post this morning had made me wonder. The "even if not..." bit.
Covey made a distinction between codependency and interdependency. Another definition I've heard of codependency is fearing people more than you "fear" God. "Fear" in this sense meaning "care about what he thinks", I believe.
The only way you're not special is if none of them if special. It depends on your definition of specialness, I suppose. I was struggling with the meanings of that last year. I thought maybe it was just Sheri Dew, and then I read some quote from a Rabbi about each of us having a special purpose in life.
There's a phrase in my patriarchal blessing that says "You will be successful in mortal life". I wondered if that meant financially successful, or if my mortality as a whole would be successful in terms of going to heaven. One day during a lesson that involved Patriarchal blessings I got thinking about it again and was impressed with the thought "It can mean whichever you want. What do you most hope for?"
Even having made that decision, my definition of success has evolved quite substantially. I was quite obsessed with being a great mother for a while, one who would have influence over my children as they crossed the desert of adolescence. Then I realized that I was trying to set myself up as a person my children would fear more than God.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
man, I wish I could find a church that had 200 women who fit that list.
Well, the mormon and missionary parts wouldn't be needed since I'm not Mormon (really any Christian would work for me).
Posts: 1901 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Because he's kinda like the wolf in the Droopy cartoons. Eyes bulging and tongue on the floor...
Posts: 993 | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by pooka: But if you're not Mormon, why would you be interested in 200 of them?
I am married, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to meet some of them as well. I would just make sure that I mentioned my wife right away, or even better brought her with me, so there wouldn't be any miscommunication.
You don't have to be Mormon to enjoy the company of Mormons, you know. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wish I could find a church that had 200 of them. 200? Really? Is that an exaggeration? Because that's just a bit more than the number of our regular attendance, including men, women & children. And that would only be half your ward!?
Posts: 1522 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's a singles ward, and there are more than 300 people in the ward. There are more women than men, so I think it's definitely between 170-200.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I initially mentally associate "ward" as a casual term for "them places what they puts the crazy people," so I've made a couple of unintentionally hilarious double-takes in this thread.
They put me in the singles ward hoo hee aa haa aa heew haaw
quote:I'm skeptical about the phrase "defining oneself." Can anyone explain why it's necessary?
At the core, it's really not. It is, though, somewhat socially inexorable -- we'll do it to ourselves in many degrees, consciously and unconsciously -- so there's reason to look at ways by which it can help you as a person.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I accepted others' definitions of me through most of elementary, jr. high, and high school-- and suffered for it. Defining myself was a step toward becoming a much happier person.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I would just make sure that I mentioned my wife right away, or even better brought her with me, so there wouldn't be any miscommunication. ![[Kiss]](graemlins/kiss.gif)
)
