posted
A discussion in another thread has got me wondering: Of those who believe in some sort of future Kingdom Of God (either than God will appear/return/incarnate/whathaveyou, or that your particular religion will one day herald a utopia of any sort) how, in your mind, will that future differ from the present, and how will that be brought about?
1. Do you believe "the wicked" will be "cast out" (or neutralized or changed in any way)? 1b. Who are "the wicked"?
2. Do you believe your particular sect will lead this ushering in of the KoG?
3. What freedoms will be enjoyed, and what freedoms that we now enjoy will be eliminated or curtailed?
4. Will "God" reign incarnate? Will people be able to see/hear/touch/talk with Him?
4b. Will there be any more children? If so, how does this effect your concept of the necessity of Faith. (I.E. If they live in the presence of God, to what degree can they then be said to have "faith" in his existence as you do, today?)
5. What will happen to the "good" non-believers (or differently believers) at the transition to this KoG? Will they be given the choice to convert or be cast out? Will they all simply choose to convert? Will they be changed somehow to finally "see the light"? Will this conversion from "knowledge" be a disadvantage to them in any way as opposed to your belief from Faith? Will true believers (prior to the KoG) be rewarded in some way more than converts after the fact? How, do you think?
6. Will you KoG come about by force? If so, who's force? God's own? Your people as God's ushers?
6b. If not by force then how will it come about?
7. Is this KoG here on Earth? If not, then where? Is this the same as Heaven? If not, then where does Heaven come in? And where is Heaven located?
1b. The people who are the least like Christ. In other words, people who lack the virtues of Charity, brotherly kindness, self-sacrifice, etc. As is obvious, this includes a large numbers of members of the church.
2. Yes.
3. Anything a good practicing Mormon is free to do now, they'll be free to do during the Millenium. I do expect changes in things (probably less interest in violence as entertainment, for example, although you can't be honest without violence in art or other entertainment) but that won't be because of "limits" on freedom. Anybody who would do stupid things with their freedom won't be around any more.
4. Yes to both. Christ will reign personally on the Earth.
4b. Yes there will be children. As for faith, remember that to a Mormon, who you are is the most important thing. The goal is to be as Christ-like as possible--that's the purpose of faith. You have the faith that in the end, it will be worth it to take on all these attributes. These children may actually have that harder--like in the Adam and Eve story, sometimes if you don't know evil or wickedness or pain, it may be harder to appreciate what you've really got going for you. They've got no more reason to believe that Jesus is a good guy just because he's hanging out with us and really powerful than somebody who read about him in the bible.
5. Mormons believe good people will all stick around for the millenium, regardless of prior creed, and by the end of the 1,000 years of peace, they'll all have accpeted Christ.
As for who gets the "better" reward, there's a parable of laborers in the vineyard. Some show up at morning, some show up at mid-day, some show up just a little before sundown. They all get a penny. Doesn't matter when you show up, the point is that you did.
6. God will basically leave who he wants to leave (including putting back anyone who's died that he wants back) and let everyone else go to the spirit world.
6b. I guess you could call it by force--it's sometimes called a "burning" or a "cleansing" or a "baptism of fire" but I don't think anyone's made any kind of offical definition of what that means.
7. It's not heaven in the sense that it's not where God dwells now, but Christ will be there for the 1,000 years of peace and this Earth will eventually fit the regular definition of heaven.
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: A lot of religions mention 1,000 years of peace.
What happens after that?
My interpretation of LDS doctrine:
Satan is released from his 1,000-year bondage. That is the time when the faith of those born and raised during "the millenium" will be tested. A great war will ensue, good will triumph over evil, all will be resurrected, the final great judgment will take place and all who have dwelt upon this earth will move on to their eternal state.
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posted
Will there be an announcement about which religion was right? I only ask because quite a lot of the Judeo-Christian interpretations are similar...so are there going to be signs saying "The Jewish Were Right" or "Ask a Mormon if You're Not Sure What to Do"?
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: A discussion in another thread has got me wondering: Of those who believe in some sort of future Kingdom Of God (either than God will appear/return/incarnate/whathaveyou, or that your particular religion will one day herald a utopia of any sort) how, in your mind, will that future differ from the present, and how will that be brought about?
1. Do you believe "the wicked" will be "cast out" (or neutralized or changed in any way)? 1b. Who are "the wicked"?
I think that we will all "get" the ways in which we are all wicked and strive to be better. We will also "get" the ways in which we are forgiven. No one is cast out - though I suppose ssome could choose to not be a part of it.
2. Do you believe your particular sect will lead this ushering in of the KoG?
Not particularly.
3. What freedoms will be enjoyed, and what freedoms that we now enjoy will be eliminated or curtailed?
The freedom to be rid of that which keeps us from being our best selves. The freedom of knowing that we are loved no matter what.
4. Will "God" reign incarnate? Will people be able to see/hear/touch/talk with Him?
Maybe. I am more inclined to think that the part of God that is incarnate in each of us will reign.
4b. Will there be any more children? If so, how does this effect your concept of the necessity of Faith. (I.E. If they live in the presence of God, to what degree can they then be said to have "faith" in his existence as you do, today?)
Sure. Why not?
5. What will happen to the "good" non-believers (or differently believers) at the transition to this KoG? Will they be given the choice to convert or be cast out? Will they all simply choose to convert? Will they be changed somehow to finally "see the light"? Will this conversion from "knowledge" be a disadvantage to them in any way as opposed to your belief from Faith? Will true believers (prior to the KoG) be rewarded in some way more than converts after the fact? How, do you think?
See the answer to #1. I don't think that prior faith will make any difference. Perhaps the only reward will be a giant version of "I knew you were going to love this!" (Like when you share something really cool.)
6. Will you KoG come about by force? If so, who's force? God's own? Your people as God's ushers?
No.
6b. If not by force then how will it come about?
We will work for it and pray for it. It isn't something that will happen all at once. It will gradually come about as we work to recognize all people as brothers and sisters in God and treat them as such.
7. Is this KoG here on Earth? If not, then where? Is this the same as Heaven? If not, then where does Heaven come in? And where is Heaven located?
I'm thinking Earth - unless we have moved off earth at that time.
1b. The people who are the least like Christ. In other words, people who lack the virtues of Charity, brotherly kindness, self-sacrifice, etc. As is obvious, this includes a large numbers of members of the church.
This is why I've always loved the LDS religion.
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quote:Originally posted by suminonA: Is this thread "off limits" for atheists?
A.
edit: emoticon
I guess it probably is, since we don't believe that any Kingdom of God is coming, right?
Just for the record, in my case it's not that I don't believe that such a Kingdom is coming, it's that I'm not WAITING for one. I'd rather do what I can to make THIS WORLD (here and now) be what others would call "heaven like".
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: What's the point of the great war?
Well, you'd have to ask Satan. He's the one who will be waging it. Frankly, any time I've ever tried to understand the motivations of the devil, I've failed.
If you're asking why God would allow it, well, back to the doctrine of agency, I guess.
(I realize I'm posting as if this all is actually going to happen this way--which I happen to believe--but to someone who doesn't believe it, I know it probably sounds ridiculous . . . but I don't think it's too strange that if there is a God, He would give us a bit of a roadmap to the future. Also, if I've across as flippant or snarky, I didn't mean to.)
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posted
C'mon all you non-LDS Christians, Jews, and Muslims (not to leave out eastern religions, but from the ones I'm familiar with this question doesn't apply). I've always been curious about other religions' take on this.
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quote:Originally posted by Uprooted: Well, you'd have to ask Satan. He's the one who will be waging it. Frankly, any time I've ever tried to understand the motivations of the devil, I've failed.
If you're asking why God would allow it, well, back to the doctrine of agency, I guess.
quote:Satan is released from his 1,000-year bondage. That is the time when the faith of those born and raised during "the millenium" will be tested. A great war will ensue, good will triumph over evil, all will be resurrected, the final great judgment will take place and all who have dwelt upon this earth will move on to their eternal state.
I don't get how you can believe both of these things. Doesn't Satan have agency? What if he decides not to start the war? If everyone has agency, how can you know how it will all end? (Good will triumph, all will be resurrected.) It sounds kinda like everyone's getting railroaded to fit God's plan to me. (I am also not trying to be flippant. . . it honestly doesn't make sense to me.)
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quote:Originally posted by BaoQingTian: C'mon all you non-LDS Christians, Jews, and Muslims (not to leave out eastern religions, but from the ones I'm familiar with this question doesn't apply). I've always been curious about other religions' take on this.
For the Jews look at the site I posted above. I don't want to type it all.
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posted
I'm LDS too, and for the most part I agree with docmagik, but there are certain points of doctrine that are not flat out interpreted for us. As far as the wicked being cast out, I think God will give as much benefit of the doubt as He possibly can. People who openly reject the gospel are probably safe to count out, but I think anyone who is willing to strive will make it. There probably are members of the LDS faith who won't make it, but I think the number that will is larger than many people believe. The Lord loves ALL of us and wants as many people with Him as will possibly come. This is my own interpretation.
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posted
Look, the 1,000 years isn't going to make people perfect. Quite the opposite. It's going to be a chance to see, even with Christ on the Earth and peace for all, who still falls into sin.
In other words, it's the final part of the test to see who's really worthy. First, before we were born, we saw who would be willing to sacrifice other people's freedom to choose, and they failed that part of the tests.
Next, we see, during this part of life, who's going to be nice and play well with others even without God standing next to them.
Finally, during the 1,000 years, we see who can actually get along in a world where everyone is pretty much playing well with others. Who's ready for a place like heaven is supposed to be.
It isn't so much that God "looses" satan, since traditional mormon doctrine has it that Satan is more bound by the "righteousness" of the people than by anything else. By the end, people are starting to listen to him again--most likely the result of pride at thinking that their righteousness has made them invulnerable to sin.
So it's just one more part of the test.
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quote:It seems odd that God would war against Satan without decisively winning very, very quickly.
I've always wondered this myself. In order to concieve of Satan as some sort of threat to God's will, you must give Satan some sort of near-equal footing with God. When you do that, by definition, you no longer have a monotheistic religion.
Edit: Which is a label I've noticed most Christians cling quite tightly to. To an outsider, such as myself, it appears as if there are several dieties. Namely God, Satan, Jesus, possibly Mary, and an entire host of lesser gods or demi-gods: the angels (and arch-angels), the saints, demons. The arch-angels especially have always reminded my of the lesser gods of Greek Mythology, such as Hermes.
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quote:Originally posted by Xavier: I've always wondered this myself. In order to concieve of Satan as some sort of threat to God's will, you must give Satan some sort of near-equal footing with God. When you do that, by definition, you no longer have a monotheistic religion.
From a logical perspective, there needs not be a one on one war "God" vs. "Satan". It could be a war between armies. Who has more followers? That kind of thing.
posted
As for the "Agency" question, God knows all of us well enough that he knows what we're going to do before we do it. Doesn't mean we're not free, it just means he knows us really, really well.
Kind of like how I know how my wife's going to react to a given movie or scene in a movie. It's not that I'm controlling her--I just know her well.
So in that sense, you might say the test is more to prove to US what we're capable of than it is to prove to God what we're capable of. Also, even though God knows we're capable of something doesn't take away the need for us to "earn" it.
And by "earn" it, I mean both in the "testing" and "learning" sense. The point of this life isn't just a test, but also a learning experience. Part of why we struggle in this life is because we flat out just don't know everything about right and wrong. Those who manage to learn, even if it's through experimentation or mistakes, can me forgiven and progress and learn more. Those who don't aren't ready for more anyway.
So it's both about learning and testing.
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quote:Originally posted by suminonA: Is this thread "off limits" for atheists?
A.
edit: emoticon
I guess it probably is, since we don't believe that any Kingdom of God is coming, right?
Just for the record, in my case it's not that I don't believe that such a Kingdom is coming, it's that I'm not WAITING for one. I'd rather do what I can to make THIS WORLD (here and now) be what others would call "heaven like".
A.
I believe that is the plan.
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posted
Tom and ElJay, very good questions for which I do not have definitive answers. So all that follows comes with the caveat that it is my own personal interpretation and not necessarily official LDS doctrine: Regarding the war, I don't understand what form this war will take. Is it a physical war? A propoganda war? Both? I do believe that that war is being fought right now, as Satan continues to battle for the hearts of men. I suspect, however, that the final war will be between the followers of God and the followers of Satan to determine to whom they will ultimately give allegiance.
ElJay, I don't know how literally you interpret the Bible, but, for example, there were OT prophecies that the northern kingdom of Israel would be scattered as a result of their wickedness and disobedience, and those prophecies were fulfilled. At the same time, God continued to send prophets to them to call them to repentance and give them the opportunity to avoid this fate.
He knew the outcome ahead of time. I know it's paradoxical and I used to struggle with this myself, but I have come not to worry about it because I have stronger reasons to believe than I do to doubt. (Please don't anyone take that as an "I have more faith than you" statement--it is entirely internal. Also don't take it as an "I've chosen not to think" because I have faith statement. I just reserve the right to choose what I'm going to worry about.) Anyway, the basic explanation I've heard is that because God is omniscient he knows the hearts of his children and what choices they will make and what circumstances will result, and so can predict final outcomes. It is impossibly complex for me to try to work out, but I do believe there is Someone who has those capabilities.
I think Satan made his choices long ago and is going to see them through to the end, and that God knows that and that the end result is that he will continue to fight God until the bitter end.
Does that answer your questions at all?
I'll try to check back later. I know I have a bad habit of not following discussions through to the end when I get involved in them!
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posted
Kirk Cameron told me I can't get into the kingdom of heaven unless I put on God's parachute. The strange guy with the mustache agreed.
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posted
pooka, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (in case you are new or don't remember). I believe the Kingdom of God is already here for whoever asks to be let in. The millenium will just be a brief phase of it, the way mortality is just a brief phase of our existence. But, yeah, I believe there will be a millenium when Christ returns to reign personally on the earth.
1. Wicked gone? I don't actually know.
1b. Who is wicked? Not my call to make. Everyone desires evil continually due to the fall, according to Mahonrimoriancumr.
2. Do you believe your particular sect will lead this ushering in of the KoG? Christ will lead it. We believe we have his authority and try to do what he wills.
3. What freedoms will be enjoyed, and what freedoms that we now enjoy will be eliminated or curtailed? All are free to chose life and liberty through the redeemer or captivity and death.
4. Will "God" reign incarnate? Will people be able to see/hear/touch/talk with Him? Jesus will reign personally on the earth during the millenium.
4b. Will there be any more children? If so, how does this effect your concept of the necessity of Faith. (I.E. If they live in the presence of God, to what degree can they then be said to have "faith" in his existence as you do, today?) I don't know, a lot of people have told me they believe so. But I really don't know. I'd consider it analogous to leading a life where there is no knowledge of God vs. being raised in a Christian land. I'd refer to the parable of the 10 virgins, where half the "righteous" think they are ready for the kingdom of God but aren't. How do I know if I am one of the prepared virgins?
5. What will happen to the "good" non-believers (or differently believers) at the transition to this KoG? Will they be given the choice to convert or be cast out? Will they all simply choose to convert? Will they be changed somehow to finally "see the light"? Will this conversion from "knowledge" be a disadvantage to them in any way as opposed to your belief from Faith? Will true believers (prior to the KoG) be rewarded in some way more than converts after the fact? How, do you think? This is another thing I have heard people say that there will still be "Mohameddans". So, obviously, an older sort of person, like Joseph F. Smith or before, and I don't agree with a lot of doctrinal things. Again, I am keeping an open mind.
6. Will you KoG come about by force? If so, who's force? God's own? Your people as God's ushers? The carnally minded will strive against each other. I do believe two of our church's apostles will be the two who are killed in Jerusalem and then rise again.
6b. If not by force then how will it come about? Going back to my first answer, each of us enter the kingdom of God as we are willing to lay aside our own carnally minded life and receive life in Christ. Maybe all the talk of doom is a metaphor for mass death as to the things of this world.
7. Is this KoG here on Earth? If not, then where? Is this the same as Heaven? If not, then where does Heaven come in? And where is Heaven located? The Kingdom has citizens on the earth, but is not of this earth. It has citizens in every faith, and members of every faith who are not. Part of the Kingdom of Heaven to me means seeing mortality as part of my eternal life, and that there is no procrastinating the day of my repentance, because my final Judgement is this and every day. My freedom in the afterlife and beyond resurrection will be proportional to the degree I cleave unto God as he cleaves unto us.
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posted
I'd like to see more non-LDS responses. (No offense. It's just that I was LDS and know that story.)
As for Atheists, well, no thread I start is off-limits to anyone that will abide the TOS. On the other hand, I'd be fascinated to read answers from an athiest that weren't all "n/a".
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posted
My approach to this sort of issue is to not approach it. In other words, all we can do is do what feels right now, and whatever comes later will come regardless. The important part, to me, is learning to listen and understand what is good and what is in harmony with God. So I don't really ponder the Kingdom of God coming at some point because I don't think it should affect what I'm doing now - I think that learning good should be done for its own sake, completely apart from any consideration of an afterlife.
Which, I guess, doesn't really answer any of your questions.
posted
No offense taken, Karl. I figured that's not what you were looking for, which is why I didn't respond to the original 7 questions. But they seem to stem from your LDS background and are easy for us to answer because, as you said, we all know that story, too! And then when the questions about LDS responses start it's hard not to jump in . . . ;-)
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: As for Atheists, well, no thread I start is off-limits to anyone that will abide the TOS. On the other hand, I'd be fascinated to read answers from an athiest that weren't all "n/a".
Ok, what does "TOS" stand for? And "n/a"?
As for my participation, if I can't really answer the questions in the OP, I'll be around to ask a lot of other questions.
posted
I'm Roman Catholic, although some say if they were trying to prove I wasn't Protestant they wouldn't know where to start. (I'm a very Protestant Catholic).
1. Do you believe "the wicked" will be "cast out" (or neutralized or changed in any way)?
"The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." If you don't want these things, then, you don't want the kingdom of God, and God's pushy but not thatpushy. This may not be what you were asking, Karl, but it's what KoG means in the Bible, apparently.
1b. Who are "the wicked"? In the parable of the sheep and the goats, they were people who didn't take care of the needy. In another, they were people who did remarkable things, but were directed by self rather than God.
2. Do you believe your particular sect will lead this ushering in of the KoG?
I'm not sure if *any* human agency will, but I lean to "yes." If so, it would be the church in general, not my (Roman Catholic) church. I told you I was Protestant!
3. What freedoms will be enjoyed, and what freedoms that we now enjoy will be eliminated or curtailed?
If everyone's righteous, peaceful, and joyful, I don't think any freedoms will need to be curtailed at all! There are things though that won't happen, though, because such people don't want to do them.
4. Will "God" reign incarnate? Will people be able to see/hear/touch/talk with Him?
I don't know. I would tend to think things will be very different, maybe so different we can't say yes or no. Sort of like if you tried to explain romantic love to a toddler, or color to a man born blind? Just my speculation, though.
4b. Will there be any more children? If so, how does this effect your concept of the necessity of Faith. (I.E. If they live in the presence of God, to what degree can they then be said to have "faith" in his existence as you do, today?)
I don't know. If so, it wouldn't change anything about faith. I have to have faith in a lot of things every day: faith that my friends won't turn evil and try to stab me, faith that gravity won't stop working, faith that Everything's Gone Be All Right, whatever. I would imagine that people living in future bliss would still have adventures, things to do, and a need for faith in some form.
5. What will happen to the "good" non-believers (or differently believers) at the transition to this KoG? Will they be given the choice to convert or be cast out? Will they all simply choose to convert? Will they be changed somehow to finally "see the light"?
The Bible suggests that some people never change their minds, and it's their decision. There's nothing about getting another chance to convert. There is a suggestion that if you didn't believe based on what you know, seeing something more direct won't change you: "If they didn't believe the prophets already sent," God told the dead man in the parable, "they won't believe even if someone comes back from the dead." I had a look at a site based on alt.atheism that suggested agreement from at least some nonbelievers: they answered the question of "If Christianity were definitively proved somehow to be true, would you adopt it?" Everyone who answered said no. I was pretty surprised. Maybe most atheists (or other non-Christians) would disagree.
Will this conversion from "knowledge" be a disadvantage to them in any way as opposed to your belief from Faith? Will true believers (prior to the KoG) be rewarded in some way more than converts after the fact? How, do you think?
The Bible also suggests that some prosper more in heaven, not because of when they converted, but because of what they did with their conversion.
6. Will you KoG come about by force? If so, who's force? God's own? Your people as God's ushers?
No force. But I'd be very iffy on this: the universe is full of force. For example, eventually the sun will go out, and that'll force a change if nothing else ever did! So God or the universe can force choices. No KoG by jihad, though.
6b. If not by force then how will it come about?
I like the idea that it will come about as believers spread the word and conquer the flaws in their own nature, making the world a better place with God's help. But that's just an idea I like, not one I have a reason to believe, one way or another.
7. Is this KoG here on Earth? If not, then where? Is this the same as Heaven? If not, then where does Heaven come in? And where is Heaven located?
This righteousness, peace, and joy can exist right here and right now. Maybe it'll spread over the whole planet -- I could hope so. I use the word "heaven" in this sense to mean the good part of the afterlife, and the afterlife isn't really located anywhere. Space as I understand it is a quality of the universe, and didn't always exist and won't always exist and can't describe how this universe relates to others (if any) or to heaven or hell.
--
Karl, I want to thank you for asking these questions. They really were questions, not attacks, as we're far too used to seeing in Internet religion discussions, and I believe you're trying to learn, and I honor that. I also learn *from* your questions what kind of questions make sense to you. Yet you weren't trying to cram others' perspectives into your pigeonholes, as often also happens.
I like to do this with other perspectives as well -- to understand New Age, or existentialism, or whatever. It was especially interesting when I was trying to understand New Age, since they use terms very differently. So I came to understand their view. Then, later, I found that I didn't understand them at all. Ain't pluralism fun?
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1. There are no wicked people, but the Vogons sure are downers.
2. Heaven is only accessible by spaceship, so NASA is the only religious sect that's come even close
3. It's a big, big, big, big, big, big universe. You're pretty much only limited by the possibilities of your infinite improbability drive....
4. Who is this God person anyway?
4b. No kids.
5. Their planets will be demolished to make way for a hyperspace express route. They didn't believe, so they pay.
6. I heard about this one galaxy...far, far away...they were always talking about some "force".
6b. Heaven comes around once in a lifetime in the form of a flying party that never ends. It's extremely hard to get to, as it requires throwing yourself at the ground and missing.
7. KOG is definitely not on earth. It's in my spaceship.
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I was actually hoping for something more personal and thoughtful. I can read the "corporate line" anytime on any number of websites for different religions. I did read your link and it doesn't really address all of my questions, though it does some.
quote:Everyone desires evil continually due to the fall,
pooka, do you really believe this? Is this just hyperbole for dramatic effect? I categorically do not believe this. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of the desires of individuals are absolutely benign, and that most people hold at least a few desires that are downright altruistic, though they may lack the motivation to actually work toward them.
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quote:2 ...Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our dnatures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires. 3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us.
Ether 3
This gets back to me remembering my answer to part 1, who is good and who is bad. When Christ was asked who would enter the Kingdom, did he not point to a little child and say whoever becomes as a child?
Or as Mosiah 3:19 has it:
quote: 19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
Such a saint trusts that God is benevolent and wise.
A "bad" person relies on their own strength and pride. That is the the wagon I fall off of every day, because I don't trust in God to tie my shoes. Even children want to learn to tie their own shoes. It sometimes seems a paradox, except that I know of no child who has invented their own way to tie their shoes. They do what they have been shown by another.
P.S. We are children of God and so the outcome of our self-sufficient efforts is not always so evil. You are probably familiar with the sayings that the devil can quote scripture or appear as an angel of light. But to what end? For his own power and glory. I think the devil still believes his purpose to be right, that he labors even now to show God that God's way of free will is harmful to man.
posted
Well personally I believe that after the Moshiach gets the Jews acts together, everyone all over will acknowledge what is happening and get their own acts together.
Posts: 3134 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by pooka: That is the the wagon I fall off of every day, because I don't trust in God to tie my shoes. Even children want to learn to tie their own shoes. It sometimes seems a paradox, except that I know of no child who has invented their own way to tie their shoes. They do what they have been shown by another.
Question: Who taught how to tie the shoelaces to the person who invented them? Generalize to any discovery/invention.
posted
(Not to derail the thread, but Karl started it and Karl derailed it, so I hope everybody can forgive me)
pooka, I'm really not getting the last paragraph and the PS on your post. Are you really saying you think "tying our shoes" ourselves--doing things for ourselves--is contrary to God's will? Is there sarcasm I'm missing here?
personally, I would take that scripture in Ether more to mean we're constantly falling short of perfection than that everyone wants to do wrong all the time.
And I really don't take the meaning of natural to be that anything man does himself is inherently evil, and only God can generate goodness.
I just think it means we're not really capable on our own of being perfect all the time. It's "natural" that we're always coming up short, and that we're "naturally" a little too self-obsessed.
This doesn't mean this defines us entirely. Because we also have in us an inate desire for more, a desire to do become greater than we are, and so even though it's natural for us to avoid pain or sacrifice, we can still do it--our desire to progress and improve is as much a part of our nature as to avoid suffering and pain and only think about ourselves.
In other words, there's goodness in all of us and badness in all of us, and, in the course of the interplay of the two, we're always short of perfection. But that doesn't make us completely evil.
I think you might be aknowledging this in your PS, when you say we might have some goodness in us, since we're children of God, but I'm not sure if you're then saying that's only the equivelent of Satan using scriptures to suit his own purpouses--evil stealing light--and that we naturally corrupt any goodness that's in us.
Posts: 1894 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I'm sorry to be pulling so many quotes, but Isaiah really puts it best: "Behold all ye that kindle fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks, walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks which ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand—ye shall lie down in sorrow."
Something I realized a while back that may help this make sense (or confuse you even more) is when I was struggling with this idea of really submitting to God, and I thought "If I am swallowed up in the will of God, will I even exist anymore?" and I believe I received the response "No, that is when you finally will exist." In short, it's being born again, or saved. That was in the fall of '04, and I felt I was saved in May of '05. But I go through phases of forgettting and remembering, and I think that remembering to be spiritually minded is this "enduring to the end" the Mormons add to mainstream Christianity.
P.S. It is also the true Jihad, the struggle against the idolater within.
Stephan: quote from the link - In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish G-d as the only true G-d, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9).
but
[Zechariah 16] And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (feast of tabernacles = sukkot) why is it that if they believe in god they are not jewish, and they do not have to come to jerusalem on pesach (passover) and shavuot?
also - [Zechariah 19] This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. -if they recognize judaism as the true religion (Zechariah 9) why wouldn't they worship him?
Meaning: If all the nations recognize the Jewish god and religion as true, why are they not considered Jewish/why don't they convert? What is the status of these people?
i am confused. does anyone know the answer/where i could find it? i suppose i could study the rambam but that would take a while ;-)
Posts: 97 | Registered: Jun 2006
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They are considered righteous Gentiles, or Noachides. Non-Jews only have 7 laws that must be obeyed (compared to over 600 for Jews).
Taken from jewfaq.com:
The Seven Laws of Noah According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles. Any non-Jew who follows these laws has a place in the world to come.
The Noahic commandments are binding on all people, because all people are descended from Noah and his family. The 613 mitzvot of the Torah, on the other hand, are only binding on the descendants of those who accepted the commandments at Sinai and upon those who take on the yoke of the commandments voluntarily (by conversion). In addition, the Noahic commandments are applied more leniently to non-Jews than the corresponding commandments are to Jews, because non-Jews do not have the benefit of Oral Torah to guide them in interpreting the laws. For example, worshipping G-d in the form of a man would constitute idolatry for a Jew; however, according to some sources, the Christian worship of Jesus does not constitute idolatry for non-Jews.
There is a growing movement of non-Jews who have consciously accepted these seven laws of Noah and chosen to live their lives in accordance with these laws. This movement is referred to as B'nei Noach (Children of Noah). For more information about the B'nei Noach movement and the Noahic commandments, see Chavurath B'nei Noach of Fort Worth, Texas.
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posted
I could get into my views on afterlife, but seeing as they vary from Wiccan to Wiccan, I'm not sure how useful they'd be. It's certainly not your normal "Kingdom of God" view, anyway.
Posts: 1591 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:why is it that if they believe in god they are not jewish
Why would they be? Judaism discourages converts; not just because we don't want the hassle, but because it's not doing them any favors either. Accepting and serving the Jewish conception of God in no way requires actually being Jewish.
(The question seems akin to asking why everyone who believes that electricians are a good idea isn't considered -- or doesn't become -- an electrician herself. Not everybody's cut out for every job.)
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quote:Originally posted by Tinros: I could get into my views on afterlife, but seeing as they vary from Wiccan to Wiccan, I'm not sure how useful they'd be. It's certainly not your normal "Kingdom of God" view, anyway.
Oh please do. I'd be very interested in knowing your views on the afterlife as a Wiccan.
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Baby Buddhist, short on sleep, will try to adapt the questions (despite no coming KoG):
1. Those who continue to cling to the illusion of the world will continue to cling until they let go (if they do). And they may grab back on again, which would put them right back on the grand karmic merry-go-round.
1b. Those who have not learned to be otherwise will still take delight in their own suffering or the suffering of others. They are more ignorant than wicked, I suppose, but the natural consequences of that ignorance will/may serve as the best teaching tool.
2. I think there are many paths to learning how to let go of an attachment to suffering, although some timeworn practices may have a better track record than others.
3. Any freedoms associated with an individuated self are illusory, and once the nature of that illusion is fully realized, the greater freedom from a self will follow.
4. Whatever underlying energy exists and keeps reshaping itself as individual actors (either to try out the great dance, or for the sake of cosmic laws of physics, or what have you) is what we return to when we let go of the beautiful, fascinating, mesmerizing illusion. All who dissolve the barriers of self have access to this, but it can be a fleeting access (due to human imperfections), and -- more importantly -- one of the strongest illusions is to believe one has achieved enlightenment when one hasn't. I think this is like sitting smack down in a seat full of chewing gum on the merry-go-round.
4b. I think it's likely that individuated selves will continue to form and reform like eddies in the water of a big lake, but maybe not. Don't really know, don't think it's of concern to me.
5. (see 4 and 4b)
6. Not by force. Life is a traumatic process, but that is because we (necessarily) view life from within the whirlwind that surrounds it. Life is harsh -- nasty, brutish, and short, and we continue again and again to fall back into the masterpiece it constructs around us. But sometimes we gradually learn to recognize it for what it is, and then the suffering dissolves.
6b. (see 6)
7. Hmm. It is here as much as anywhere else, but getting "here" or "there" means there is no "here" or "there."
---
PS: I remain quite distressed by my inability to explain this in other than somewhat inane babblespeak, but I am also distressed at my need to be distressed at that. Regardless, this has for me been more a matter of working my way backwards into this sort of belief rather than a seeking it out.
I don't think anything else makes sense, as reality seems to have continued to resist me at every other turn (sort of like how one is forced to accept the results of a science experiment that has been perfectly replicated hundreds of times). I come to Buddhism with a fair bit of shock, puzzlement, and confusion, but I have to name it for what it is.
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posted
Okay, well, keep in mind that the views vary GREATLY from person to person- some people believe the soul remains intact, some people believe it's split up, some Wiccans believe that the body doesn't have a soul at all, that it's just a concept that the human mind came up with to explain life, the universe, and everything. That is, until 42 came along.
Now, please keep in mind that my concept of deity is not your normal "perfect, omniscient" deity. I believe that the God and the Goddess are simply personifications of this supreme... force, I guess you would call it. This force is in and of everything- that's why we revere nature so much. We are a part of it. No matter who you are, this supreme force is a part of you, a part of every animal, rock, tree, etc. You don't need to "accept" this force for it to be there- it just is.
The God and the Goddess, also, are not perfect. THey have faults, they have good points. That's where worshipping different "gods" and "goddesses" comes into play. Each person chooses which of those qualities they value most, and they worship those parts. The God and the Goddess, the Supreme Being, isa culmination of every aspect of every person, thing, entity that ever was and ever will be. It's kind of hard to understand, but that's the way it works for us.
It's understanding that the God and Goddess have faults, have wekanesses that makes them so much more personal to me than the Christian God ever was. What makes them deities? They have more power, are eternal. *I* am not in and of everything, so I can't be a deity. However, that force that is in and of everything, that is deity.
That being said, most Wiccans believe in a sort of heaven, called the Summerland. This place isn't rigidly defined- this is where it varies so much from person to person. I can't begin to describe the beliefs of other Wiccans, so I'm not going to try. I'll just concentrate on trying to explain what I believe.
I believe that no person can ever be perfect. Each soul, each part of each thing that is that supreme being, I believe that is the soul, but more... personalized. Your actions change your soul, make it more "good" or "bad", these being relative terms. But since the God and Goddess have faults and weaknesses too, they will not- well, can not condemn us for our own faults. I believe that the soul, after death, is judged, in a way, but not as harshly as some other religions believe. I think that if a soul is mostly good- as in, it has followed the Wiccan Rede, and has(for the most part) not wished harm on itself or others, then it joins the God and Goddess in Summerland, in eternal happiness and peace. If the soul is judged as "bad"- has wished harm, things like that, more than it has wished good- then it is reincarnated, and given another chance, until it finally becomes mostly good, then it joins the rest of the individual souls in Summerland.
I don't know what I believe about an "end of times." What happens, will happen. THe Wiccan version of "judgement" isn't as clean cut as others. So, we just try to be as good as we can possibly be, both for others and for ourselves.
I hope that explains things a bit, at least about what I believe. Yeah, it didn't follow that nice little questionnaire you set up, but eh, nothing I believe really follows a questionnaire. Hope it helps.
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quote:one of the strongest illusions is to believe one has achieved enlightenment when one hasn't
Yeah, that's always the problem, isn't it? Though it reminds me of a bit from the book of Mormon: "O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?"
Someone in my 12 step meeting this morning put a new phrase on the scripture "For my yoke is easy and my burden is light". I have long thought that the yoke of Jesus is universal forgivness, and I've also thought that in His forgiveness, our deeds are seen in a full spectrum, turning from the scarlet we perceive into pure white light. We let go of our ownership of the sin, and the burden of self.
P.S. tinros, I change my earlier comment to say idolater instead of pagan, though I've had wiccans get mad at me for naming them pagans, so I don't know what to do Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Pagan and proud, right here. It's when people automatically assume that "pagan" means animal sacrifice and evil that I get kinda miffed.
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I enjoy - am enriched by - the points of commonality between my catholic ideas and the Buddhist and Wiccan ideas.
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