posted
I work as a proofreader and language consultant. I have a Czech colleague whose English is very proficient, though obviously not native. Every time I suggest that something might not be entirely grammatically correct, she goes on about the different types of English and how there is no one source to dictate what is proper and what is not, and what is ok in British or Australian English, say, is unknown by the barbarians (delicately hinted at) in North America. I don't deny the fact that there is no single source for proper English and that grammar and usage can and do vary to some degree in different English-speaking countries. I do take issue with the suggestion that some of obviously wrong things we've discussed are permissible somewhere in the world, though.
Today we're discussing writing out numbers. Usually when we talk we say "nine hundred and ninety nine dollars," but I submit that the "and" is actually ONLY spoken - when you write a check or other official document, it isn't there. It should be "nine hundred ninety nine," shouldn't it, officially? I was taught, and found some verification online, that "and" belongs only in the decimal place: "nine hundred ninety nine dollars and ninety nine cents."
Is this right or wrong? Is it proper, somewhere in the native-English-speaking world, to have "and" after the hundreds as well as the decimal? I'm particularly interested in Australian, New Zealander and British input.
posted
I don't know about proper, but I know I've done it before. The bank didn't send it back, so I suppose it's permissible.
I can understand how people would write it out because they're used to saying it and assume that's the proper way. Heck, if enough people did it that way for long enough somewhere, it would become the proper way.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
I'm neither Australian, New Zealander, nor British...
I know what you're talking about. English isn't spoken "properly" here, either. By properly, I mean according to generally accepted rules in Canada, the US, Australia, or Britain. BUT it is spoken (and written) according to local rules.
If the person is only communicating with other Sri Lankans, how can I argue? But when they try to communicate with native English speakers, they can have a very very difficult time getting their point across.
To your point about the "and" in numbers: The "and", from how I was taught, belongs at Nine hundred ninety nine dollars and ninety nine cents - ie, when it's connected two numerical items that are not equivalent.
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
My colleague learned British English and my predecessor was Australian/NZ, so it would be particularly useful to know the opinions of speakers from those countries.* You're one of us barbarians, unfortunately.
* Though it would be comforting to get confirmation from some Americans, too... Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I'm just a run-of-the mill U.S. American, but I would write also put the "and" only in the decimal place in writing. However, don't think it's an issue that's going to scream "uneducated" to the reader.
Who is the audience for the written communications of your company? If the readers are North American, then your colleague needs to go by North American spelling/usage standards. All I can say is "style guide"--find an authoritative source to back up your rule and if they do it differently in India, too bad.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
For use in the U.K. or internationally: use the Times of London style guide and, of course, Fowler (yes, his prose is weighty and his rules on split-infinitives were considered fairly dated even then, but his book is still the standard for the use of English internationally.)
For the U.S.: use The Chicago Manual of Style or the MLA.
For Canada or Australia: don't worry about it, just use some freaky hybrid of U.S. and British English, you'll probably write like a native.
Use the I.S.O. when writing about science, even if for a "general audience."
Indeed, the I.S.O. is probably best for numbers in any case, as it is designed to prevent confusion.
Thus, you should write $ (U.S.) 999, 99 or 999.99 if you want to be understood internationally (either is allowable, the former is the convention in many languages and is preferred by the I.S.O., the later is convention in English and recognized by the I.S.O.)
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quote:Originally posted by Tante Shvester: Sing a song of sixpence A pocket full of rye Four and twenty blackbirds Baked in a pie.
Just sayin'.
Well, if it was four twenty people might think you meant 420, not 4 + 20. And twentyfour just doesn't fit with the tune.
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posted
Four & Twenty is a lay-over from the German way of counting, which is exactly that: vierundzwanzig.
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posted
Pelegius, did you read the question? That was all very charming, but we're talking about writing numbers out in official documents (mostly legal contracts, in my case). And $ is only typical for the US (at least, it's not used on the continent) - for $999 you would write USD 999.
Our audience is a mix of continental Europeans (not only Czechs) and British native speakers, though the English the office uses is not predominantly British. There's kind of a quaint mix, though I try to ensure that what goes through my hands, at least, is either one or the other. Though I have to say that "license" and "colour" in the same document is kind of cute...
Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
Ok I'm from New Zealand and I can't really remember what I wrote last time I wrote a check but I think I would have written "one hundred and ninety nine dollars and ninety nine cents", so would my partner. I don't really know if thats the norm here or not? So it probably doesn't help. We have never come across it being an issue or not! Never thought about it before. No bank or person has ever questioned us on it before...
Posts: 315 | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Lissande: Today we're discussing writing out numbers. Usually when we talk we say "nine hundred and ninety nine dollars," but I submit that the "and" is actually ONLY spoken - when you write a check or other official document, it isn't there.
It is there if you put it there.
quote:It should be "nine hundred ninety nine," shouldn't it, officially? I was taught, and found some verification online, that "and" belongs only in the decimal place: "nine hundred ninety nine dollars and ninety nine cents."
One of my English teachers taught me that, too. I have no idea how widespread the practice is, and I don't know what style guides or authorities officially sanction it.
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posted
" That was all very charming, but we're talking about writing numbers out in official documents "
Official documents have all the more reason to avoid being confusing, thus the agreed upon system for numbers, which means Arabic numerals in the format I showed.
There is probably some rule against using a system that works that well....
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
When I was in fifth grade, we learned how to write checks and were taught to never write "and" except in the place of a decimal.
I don't remember much of fifth grade, but that has always stuck with me. To this day, I cringe whenever I receive checks not following that rule.
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posted
Pelegius, the question was regarding how to officially spell numbers, with particular attention to "and," when writing them out, not whether I should spell them or rather use Arabic or a comma in place of a period, though I do grant you that the comma information was particularly entertaining. (They use commas for decimal points in Europe? Woah...)
My point was that the format for writing numbers in a legal contract is as follows:
quote:CZK 999 (in words: nine hundred [and] ninety nine Czech crowns)
The numerals and words help to avoid confusion or misunderstandings caused by typos. Precision and avoiding confusion and all that. Important in official documents.
Thanks for the advice.
...
Celaeno - yeah, me too. Maybe it's just an American thing. I reserve the right to let it get on my nerves, though. Posts: 2762 | Registered: Sep 1999
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posted
I don't think the 'and' is significant either way, however, we must wonder how many 'and's are correct.
One could say One Hundred and Ninety Nine Dollars, but would one really say One Hundred and Ninety Nine Dollars and Ninety Nine Cents, or One Hundred and Ninety Nine and 99/100 Dollars? I don't think any of them are wrong, and I think any of them would be understood internationally.
The point here is that from a general English usage perspective how many 'and's can you reasonably use. Why not One Hundred AND Ninety AND Nine Dollars AND Ninety AND Nine Cents. Monetarily I don't think that is wrong, but it is an excessive use of 'and's.
Unrelated example - I went to the store AND the bank AND the gas station AND dry cleaners AND then I went back home. Too many 'and's.
So gramatically one could say One Hundred and Ninety Nine Dollars, and Ninety Nine Cents. The point here is that the comma between Dollars and Cents makes it gramatically correct. As in, 'pins and needles, and thread'; in my view that is just as gramatically correct as 'pins, needles, and thread'. I'm not necessarily proposing the use of the comma to express currency, only illustrating how it can be gramatically correct.
As far as checks, there is a limted amount of space so I eliminate extraneous words.
I frequently communicate with business associates in Korea, and do my best to not rely on common American language and phrases. I try to keep my commication as universal as possible as most of the people receiving my documents only marginally speak English as a second or third language.
When I mention currency amounts I always use both words and numbers and give the country designation to make sure their is no confusion. Many countries in the world use 'dollars' (Australia, Canada, USA), but none of those dollars are in equal value, so 'country designation' according to international standards is important.
One Hundred Ninety Nine Dollars and Ninety Nine Cents (US$ 199.99).
Since I work with Koreans, if I intend an amount to be in Korean Currency, I usually spell it out since it is only three letters; WON 65,001,900 which is the equivalent to US$68,500.00 (approx).
Frequently when we wire transfer money from the bank, it is transferred in an equivalent WON or US Dollars. In a recent purchase the bank sent the first amount as equivalent US Dollars and the second payment on the same order as Korean WON, but the purchase order was written in WON. In this case when I corresponded, I wrote down the actual amount transferred in the currency that it was transferred in followed in parenthesis with an equivalent in the alternate currency.
One problem I do have is that when my Korean friends write to me commas are used in place of the decimal point. I cases like this I am frequently confused about the amount because I'm not sure if it was a typo or if they intended it as it appears. For example 199,99 - am I to interpret that literally, or am I to assume they simply forgot to add a zero to the end, as in 199,990.
When communcating, you should communicate in the regional format; when in UK, do as they do in the UK. When communicting internationally, you should make every effort to make you communication 'style neutral' or more accurately 'style universal' in order to prevent confusion.
Admittedly, that is not always an easy task.
The fact that a given style of format can be justified somewhere in the world is somewhat irrelevant. The goal it to make your communication as univerally understood as possible, so when selecting various potential styles, that should be the question you ask yourself, not what would be understood somewhere, but what would be most univerally understood everywhere.
posted
In Britain, the 'and' would always be there in that context. I would definitely put it there. Co-incidentally, I actually had almost this exact conversation with a bunch of people the other day, and the consensus was that leaving out the 'and' only happened in America and looked a little bit weird to their eyes.
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