quote:CONTROVERSIAL Muslim leader Sheikh Taj al-Din al-Hilali has savaged Australia in an interview on Egyptian television, claiming there is no freedom or democracy for Muslims and that English people are the most unjust and dishonest.
The Mufti of Australia said Muslims were more Australian than Anglo-Saxons because they came here voluntarily, that Australians played the "fear card" to keep Muslims down, and that racial prejudice was the reason for the 55-year sentence given to gang rapist Bilal Skaf.
"Anglo-Saxons came to Australia in chains, while we (Muslims) paid our way and came in freedom. We are more Australian than them. Australia is not an Anglo-Saxon country — Islam has deep roots in Australian soil that were there before the English arrived," Sheikh Hilali said.
[...]
The interview, in Arabic, was about the furore he created last year with a Ramadan sermon in which he compared scantily clad women with "uncovered meat", suggesting that they were responsible for rape, called women Satan's messengers to deceive men, and said thieves often stole because they were pressured by greedy women.
posted
Nothing says "modern", "sane" or "intelligent" better than ideas that adult men are not responsible for their own actions when women are around.
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quote:Ramadan sermon in which he compared scantily clad women with "uncovered meat", suggesting that they were responsible for rape, called women Satan's messengers to deceive men, and said thieves often stole because they were pressured by greedy women.
I would say no, not at all.
Edit to mention that the sarcasm was directed at the insane man, not Euripides, who hasn't shown me any inclination of craziness
posted
Sorry, I thought your post was sarcastically saying 'Modern Western society doesn't exhibit much gender equality either.'
Hence, my line of reasoning was; 'Well, we're talking about gang rape here - isn't that in a totally different ballpark to the gender equality issues most modern women in first world countries are faced with?'
Sorry for the misunderstanding and for the long-winded disclaimer. But I would really hate to appear as if I was condoning that ludicrous mufti's words, which are wrong on so many levels. I found that quote infuriating.
Posts: 1762 | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Ah. I'm glad we're in agreement. That kind of crazy, backward thinking is scary to me, because it seems that so many people in the world have completely different basic assumptions about how the world works.
I don't know how a society based on that kind of thinking could ever be able to thrive. The ideas expressed in that quote embrace blatant lies and complete lack of personal responsibility or accountability.
How would a society or a group of people with that mindset find common ground with someone in the US, or Germany, or Australia, or... anywhere that treats people on equal footing.
posted
I was under the impression that he already issued an apology for the second part (which was from an old interview).
I don't have time to read it all, but the gist I got was that (and some one can correct me), he's arguing that women who dress scantily are at fault for being raped, but the men have still committed a capital crime, meaning they're both in the wrong. *shrug*
In any case, I found this odd:
quote: "Islam has deep roots in Australian soil that were there before the English arrived," Sheikh Hilali said.
Not familiar with Australian history, is there any basis for this? (...leaning towards *no*...)
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Yep, he did issue an apology, but this whole 'We are more Australian because we bought our plane tickets here' is new.
Not to say that Islam = unAustralian (whatever the hell that word means). That would be just as prejudiced. The whole idea of claiming that a certain ethnic group is 'more Australian' than any other is just disgusting to me.
posted
Y'know, as an (predominantly anglo-saxon) Australian I have no issues with this point:
quote:Anglo-Saxons came to Australia in chains, while we (Muslims) paid our way and came in freedom.
Yeah, some of my ancestors may have been convicts. And if they were, I have no issues with the fact that many if not most refugees coming to Australia today are more law-abiding than they were. And I see the irony (for want of a better word) when refugees are locked up as criminals given the original (white) settling of our country. I think it's a very valid point.
But this?
quote: Islam has deep roots in Australian soil that were there before the English arrived.
Huh? Y'what now?
I have never heard any suggestion that Australian indigenous culture had any contact with Islam/Muslim societies. I cannot think where this is coming from or what he means by this.
***
On an aside, I feel really sorry for the moderate Australian Muslims who feel they have to apologise for this guy. I don't think he should be in a position of religious power, but given he is, I feel sorry for those who feel duty bound to defend him.
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quote:Yeah, some of my ancestors may have been convicts.
I bet you couldn't find a single human being on this planet who didn't have a criminal relative at some point in his or her family history.
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It's fairly recently that white men stole this land from the Eora peoples, who've been here for 40,000 years. It was an invasion, to be sure. The Aborigines have rightful claim to this land.
But Australia today is a largely urbanised cosmopolitan society with democratic values. And the fact of the matter is, for good or ill, the settlers have also helped to create the nation's identity. To say that one ethnic or religious group is more Australian by the current definition, seems hypocritical. It would go against what we stand for (the 'fair go').
quote:Originally posted by imogen:
On an aside, I feel really sorry for the moderate Australian Muslims who feel they have to apologise for this guy. I don't think he should be in a position of religious power, but given he is, I feel sorry for those who feel duty bound to defend him.
quote:Originally posted by MightyCow: Nothing says "modern", "sane" or "intelligent" better than ideas that adult men are not responsible for their own actions when women are around. ... I don't know how a society based on that kind of thinking could ever be able to thrive. The ideas expressed in that quote embrace blatant lies and complete lack of personal responsibility or accountability. ... How would a society or a group of people with that mindset find common ground with someone in the US, or Germany, or Australia, or... anywhere that treats people on equal footing.
First, I'll say that the quote from the Islamic leader is definitely wrong IMHO.
However. not that I'm saying its right, but this kind of attitude is not foreign to any culture. For example, in this poll, "more than a quarter (26%) of those asked said that they thought a women was partially or totally responsible for being raped if she was wearing sexy or revealing clothing". This is in Britain.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:I don't know how a society based on that kind of thinking could ever be able to thrive.
Step one: ensure regular beatings of the devil women.
Step two: make sure they are not allowed to speak in public, for fear people will be swayed by their evilness and decide to stop beating them.
Step three: ensure they are discouraged from ever raising a hand against or disobeying the godly men by any means necessary, such as killing those who do.
(Please note: I am not basing this on any actual society. I'm not saying anyone does this, or that this is typical of Muslims in general. I have never personally known any Muslim who would do this, and know several Muslims for whom I have great love and respect. I'm saying that this is what I think would be necessary for such a society to thrive, as the question is postulated.)
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posted
What's sad is that you probably wouldn't have to beat a lot of the women to get them to comply.
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posted
The thng about being "More Australian" is that they seem to be referring to Australia as a land mass, whereas the anglo-saxons are referring to Australia as a culture.
When it comes down to it, I give the edge far more to the culture than the land mass. It's the difference between my identifying as French Canadian or American. I'm culturally American, and genealogically French Canadian, but I think the "who's more American" argument is riduculous by and large.
The whole thing is a lame attempt to gain some sort of upper hand.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
I have found that those who start gradating "Americaness" or "Austrailianess" in this case are really the ones that need to be kicked out of the country and extradited some place unpleasant.
I've had a few Americans tell me that because I did not grow up here I am not really an American. They don't know what America is, as they have never been without it. It's extremely hard to appreciate something fully that you have ALWAYS had. Though not empirically true, its pretty likely that you don't know what you've got until you've lost it.
I don't put up with "holier then thou" attitudes or "more nationalistic then thou" sentiments. Far too much lunacy has taken place that all started with, "They are not really Americans,(pick your culture)" and by extension "human beings."
I hate his analogies. If there is petrol laying around and you light the match, can you blame the explosion? If there is meat laying around can you blame the fly for coming? Human beings are not FLIES, we have free will to choose how we react to a situation. Even approaching his philosophy, if men are good and women are Satan's messengers, shouldn't the men be noble and able to decide how they act in a given situation?
Christian fundamentalism has caused so much damage throughout history, I am vehemently opposed to giving radical Islam a swing. Its so strange for me to have lived in Malaysia and seen Muslims there who though they have ideas that are very alien to me, were still wonderful people. Then find out there are absolutely crazy morons running around the Middle East who want to blanket the earth with their madness.
This rant has not been very intelligent or very useful IMO and really what can I do in response to this man's opinion? Ridicule it and express my own ideas. Thats were my rights end. I hope this guy does SOMETHING that can get him deported from the country, while causing minimal damage. At least it appears that Muslims in Australia mostly think this guy is just nuts.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:I don't put up with "holier then thou" attitudes or "more nationalistic then thou" sentiments. Far too much lunacy has taken place that all started with, "They are not really Americans,(pick your culture)" and by extension "human beings."
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