posted
This was going to be a tangent in the "Messiah" thread, but as that's increasingly likely to get locked...
Why does this happen, when people discuss religion or politics?
Nobody breaks out straw man, sarcasm, and inflammatory language in a discussion of what kind of cheese is best, or the habits of red-winged blackbirds. Even if someone thinks Gouda is spoiled milk or believes blackbirds bear live young, nobody feels personally insulted by this disagreement.
Maybe it's that our opponents really are evil. For example, Jesus said treat people well; his followers sometimes don't; therefore the whole lot of them are bad. (We could similarly blame all atheists for the Stalin purges.)
Or maybe they're all total idiots for not agreeing with me. They just can't see what's plainly in front of them. They deserve to be twitted. Hmph.
I don't think it's that those people who dare disagree with me are evil or stupid. I think it's a failure of one's boundaries. Really: if someone says God/Jesus/whatever does or doesn't exist, why should that anger me? It doesn't make him vanish or appear or change character.
I speculate these reasons:
* Someone who reacts with anger to another's disagreement on a fundamental issue is uncertain about that issue; or * Someone who reacts with anger to another's disagreement doesn't tolerate disagreement well; or * Someone who reacts with anger in such a situation has encountered insult: the disagreement came with an attached "you idiot." However, it's better to strive for boundaries against _that_, too. Calling me an idiot doesn't make me one, so why does it affect me? It's the other's fault for calling me one, but it's my fault if I can't live at peace in a world where people do that sometimes.
I don't mean to shame anyone. Maintaining boundaries in the face of genuine insult can be difficult. (People who must deal with this professionally, like cops, have trainings to deal with it, so they won't go ballistic. Maybe we should all have these classes?) Maintaining boundaries in the face of something that really challenges our beliefs is also tough. The fact that we aren't all jaded, and we don't just yawn when someone speaks of cosmic issues but care enough to get flustered...I think that shows a good thing: that we actually *care*.
So I'd hope nobody tells himself, in order to trick myself into thinking I'm wise I'll suppress my tendency to react. I think it's better to go ahead and care...but realize that if I flame back, it reveals *my* erroneous zones, not anyone else's.
[ November 23, 2006, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: Will B ]
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quote:Originally posted by Will B: Nobody breaks out straw man, sarcasm, and inflammatory language in a discussion of what kind of cheese is best, or the habits of red-winged blackbirds. Even if someone thinks Gouda is spoiled milk or believes blackbirds bear live young, nobody feels personally insulted by this disagreement.
Well, people do sometimes get pretty heated in discussions about operating system choice or game console choice.
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posted
And some of the sports threads get quite violent. I believe there have been genuine threats of physical harm on at least one occasion.
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However, your point is valid in one sense. People are most likely to get worked up about that which is most important to them, and most linked to their sense of self.
For some people, that's sports teams or electronic gizmos. Others consider nature-of-eternal-existence questions more important.
But, y'know. Whatever makes you happy. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
The whole idea of maintaining a personal boundary really appeals to me. Someone with a strong sense of personal boundary can make strong decisions about life and preferences. A strong personal boundary keeps anything from getting to you in conversation, so you can talk politics and religion without ever being "affected".
But at the same time, I like to question and challenge my beliefs, which is why I love discussion in the first place.
I think Will is right though, that anyone that allows themselves to be emotionally affected (angry, defensive) by impersonal debates over a forum has a weak personal boundary.
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posted
I think it has a lot to do with the fact that in those two areas of belief - religion and politics - too many people cannot conceive of the fact that they might be wrong. And when they are faced with a divergent belief, it just sets them off.
Now, I hold some pretty hard and fast beliefs about both subjects. On the other hand, I can admit that I might be wrong. I don't think I am, and I will say that, but I know that the possibility is there...and I will say that as well. That doesn't mean that I hold my beliefs any less strongly. It just means that I don't expect everyone who disagrees with me to shut up about their own beliefs. There are folks...and some of them post here...who expect anyone who does not agree with them, especially about religion and politics, to be silent.
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posted
The personal boundary concept is a very Western thing and probably a modern Western thing as well. So while it is a great concept it can hardly serve as a universal solution. Fences make good neighbors, but we are the only ones that really live that way.
Personal space is not protected in Central Asian culture with a concept of appropriate distance but instead with tools, garments and weapons. In conversation the analogy would be artificial limits on words used and the tools of politeness and in the best cases the tools of debate.
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posted
I think the real reason is the people state religious opinion as incontrovertible fact and that comes off as a challenge. Perhaps that's a modern, Western viewpoint, but it sure seems like we have much more fruitful discussions when phrases like "I believe" and "we believe" are used rather than phrases like "my <insert diety here> is the right one."
I imagine that when the same discussion tactics are used in other topic areas, they get similar results because the implied "in my opinion" just seems to be missing and people react badly to that.
Religious discussions are a lot like tic-tac-toe. If both people know how the game is played, every conversation ends in a "cat's game." Some people find that fun or interesting. Some people can't leave a "challenge" unanswered.
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posted
Gen Sax, I have heard this Western/Eastern difference of viewpoint a lot. Frankly, I don't buy it. Humans are still humans and the same things that bother one group will do so in another. Now, I realize what you are saying is that how the "Central Asian" culture deals with those human disagreements are different. However, my experience is that as soon as those tools reach a limit the personal boundaries will arise.
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quote:I have heard this Western/Eastern difference of viewpoint a lot. Frankly, I don't buy it. Humans are still humans and the same things that bother one group will do so in another.
How much experience do you have other cultures?
Edit: I do not mean to sound accusatory, such as "You obviously don't have much."
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posted
I have enough experience with other PEOPLE to know that culture is simply lies that we tell to ourselves to cover up the truth of our experiences as humans.
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posted
That didn't answer my question at all. How much experience do you have with people from other cultures?
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rivka. Women! ------------------------------------------- I don't much, well I don't at all, get into religious topics. Reason for it is my own almost nonexistant belief.
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: I have enough experience with other PEOPLE to know that culture is simply lies that we tell to ourselves to cover up the truth of our experiences as humans.
posted
If you don't want to answer my question, that's OK, but I'll go ahead and let you know that you haven't answered my question at all, just in case we're miscommunicating.
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posted
However, it is Thanksgiving...why are people posting on Hatrack anyway? Don't you people have people to tend too?
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quote:Originally posted by Stan the man: However, it is Thanksgiving...why are people posting on Hatrack anyway? Don't you people have people to tend too?
posted
You neither huh? well, I understand you on that one Pearce. I'm celebrating with very close friends today. Jameson, Bacardi, and Jagermeister.
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Hey, watch where you put that thing! I don't even want to know where it's been.
And given that two of my kids are currently in school and we're doing the whole turkey deal tomorrow night, no, I do not have anyone to "tend to" at the moment. Other than the child who is currently under orders to find the room buried all that junk. >_<
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posted
So you are going to put me on a guilt trip too, eh Peace? Women! Can't live with em, can't live without them, but it's sure as heck a lot easier to live without them.
Oh, pearce. Jameson is such a much better whiskey.
posted
Fine then! I'll just spend time with Dr. Stolichnaya!
I'm incredibly pleased, though...I FINALLY found a place that serves food and is open on Thanksgiving. Everything, EVERYTHING is closed here, and I forgot to get food yesterday.
posted
My freezer, fridge and pantry are all stocked. I have pork marinating in sweet and sour sauce and am going to make cornish hens tonight as dinner. Probably also with a veggie stir fry.
Never thought I would ever hijack a religion topic.
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quote:Someone who reacts with anger in such a situation has encountered insult: the disagreement came with an attached "you idiot." However, it's better to strive for boundaries against _that_, too.
Here's the problem: I believe that anyone who thinks they've personally experienced God is, to some extent, either delusional or seriously misinterpreting their experiences. There is no polite way for me to put this, and many people are understandably insulted when you tell them that the experiences they consider formative to their life were just stress-related hallucinations.
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posted
I attempted to post this on the Messiah thread but I figure this one will have to do.
There are lots of powers greater then man, Almost certainly beings with more complex and faster awareness, in a cosmically short time there will be no Earth to live on and in a much shorter time we will be gone.
A powerful arbitrary force is really no different then the laws of the universe we deal with all the time. The power of the Spirit mitigated by Christ's love and understanding of the human condition is a completely different thing.
I think that efforts are being made by some to close this thread down with hysterical hostility, and I would ask the moderator to indulge the person in question and allow the rest of us to talk around them.
I think the person in question will be happy to see the Christians coming after a nuke finds its way into the hands of the Muslim's that we are lumped with.
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posted
Why? Because lives are at stake. Not an exaggeration.
Now, I recognize that my own view of a political situation or of religion has only a trivial effect on the decisions of our political leaders and processes, and none at all as to the existence of Power or Powers that be and whether or not they are benevolent or paying attention.
But I will freely admit I have a very strong emotional stake as to whether some of the people in my life who have died have no more ties to the temporal world than their interactions with the other, equally mortal, people they interacted with.
Likewise politics; these issues affect whether some people I care about live or die, and whether their marriages and relationships will survive, and whether our country will be a place of freedom and hope and opporunity, or just a place of Freedom And Hope And Opportunity (tm).
I am perfectly delighted to talk about cheese. But my choice in cheese is most likely to affect whether my lasagna tastes good, and possibly how soon I keel over from coronary heart disease.
quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Personal space is not protected in Central Asian culture with a concept of appropriate distance but instead with tools, garments and weapons.
Could you give a concrete example? I don't know what this means.
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posted
I tend to avoid the religious discussions because they just get too nasty.
I am a very strong believer in my faith- and have taken on several leadership roles both official and unofficial in my community (my school and church).
It just seems to me like no one has ever changed their opinion in the religious debates I've seen, read, or participated in. It only ends up with a lot of hurt feelings. I like to think about my own faith- and if asked will explain- or if I feel that what I believe might have some relevency then sure I'll respond. But I'd ruch rather the influence my faith has over me by the way I try to act and behave with courtesy and decency towards everyone, rather than how often, how quickly, and how eloquent my flaming is.
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posted
In Iraq and in the two other countries there that I have visited people crowd together, sit shoulder to shoulder, talk nose to nose and pile into cars like clowns as a concrete example. They also steal whatever is not being actively used at the time, but that is a symptom of poverty as well as culture... Women are covered from head to toe to protect them from being viewed intimately, fail to do so and you literally invite rape by the first man to grab you.
Fail to have a weapon and your home can be invaded at will, fail to conceal your treasures and you are giving them away. So personal space becomes the respect you create with fear and intimidation, coverage, and interpersonal connections with those around you who watch out for you. I know that many Iraqi's react with disbelief and offense at the distance an American is comfortable interacting at, trying over and over close the intimacy gap despite being rebuffed.
This is similar to what my soldier friends at the VFW have said about the Far East and even parts of South America. I cannot speak to those stories with personal experience though.
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quote:Some of us were raised to value such esoteric things as "tact" and "courtesy."
It's worth observing, of course, that it's possible to assign something a lower relative value without concluding that it has no value. But I'm sure you know that.
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quote:Originally posted by General Sax: Personal space is not protected in Central Asian culture with a concept of appropriate distance but instead with tools, garments and weapons.
Could you give a concrete example? I don't know what this means.
I can confirm that at least in south east Asia the feeling of space is definitely slackened. The Middles East is like this too, at least in Saudi Arabia, in my psychology text book it demonstrated this Ill see if I can find equivalent images.
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41290000/jpg/_41290537_men203.jpg ^^ Not the best example but I'm too lazy to scan my text book. Think of yourself in that situation how would you be sitting were you next to another man even a friend. Obviously one is leaning onto the arm rest and the other is leaning on his friend, as are the 2 men in front of them, but even with that being the case would you see that behavior in the United States?
In China if you are getting ready for bed and your two friends drop by as they are traveling through, if its cold all 3 of you WILL sleep in the same bed, if there really is not enough room (say the bed is a single bed) the three people will all argue over who GETS (not who MUST be willing) to sleep on the floor. Eventually two people will be in the bed and one will sleep on the floor.
This isn't to say in American culture we are adverse to being near each other, it's just as a general rule we seek out space, where as in other cultures they are almost completely unconcerned with that concept.
I think the first time a girl let me nestle up to her was in a high speed subway and we were sort of pressed against each other Our faces were less then a foot apart, and though we didn't make eye contact neither of us felt uncomfortable in the least.
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posted
People's idea of personal space is flexible to context.
If a bus is empty and a stranger sits down next to you, you'd be very uncomfortable. If the same bus is packed and someone squeezes in next to you, you'll accommodate them (typically).
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posted
Obviously, I have to look for the cheese threads now.
I typically enter into religious discussions on the 'net to examine my own ideas, and observe the philosophical positions of others (friend and foe). It's my attempt to hone my arguments, and try for self-consistency in my belief system.
I'm also a confrontationalist, and love a good verbal fight. I also like to see my opponents turn and twist in their attempts to extract themselves from the (il)logical knots they wrap themselves into. Nothing but fun!
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: People's idea of personal space is flexible to context.
If a bus is empty and a stranger sits down next to you, you'd be very uncomfortable. If the same bus is packed and someone squeezes in next to you, you'll accommodate them (typically).
true enough but if the buses are consistently packed enough all the time you simply forget about the idea of having your own space.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's worth observing, of course, that it's possible to assign something a lower relative value without concluding that it has no value. But I'm sure you know that.
Of course. But if one's behavior evidences a consistent pattern of assigning a lower value to something than to a great number of other things, one should not be surprised if others draw certain conclusions.
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posted
I get that personal space "need" differs between cultures, but I don't get how that relates to personal boundaries regarding opinions.
Maybe that was just analogy -- or advice to pick a different analogy?
Anyway, surely even cultures where friends are all in each other's faces, you better not talk bad about somebody's mamma.
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posted
The concept of personal space definately does vary according to culture. I have the anglo-saxon concept of personal space compounded by an upbringing based on a fairly fixed idea of what constitutes appropriate behaviour with folk you don't know.
I now live in Spain, and even after more than four years I still feel uncomfortable on occasion with familiarity between strangers which is seen as the norm here.
To return to the question, I think that people respond with feeling if their beliefs are questioned precisely becasue they *are* beliefs. One's personal faith is a pillar of one's being and thus to have it questioned, or worse attacked, can only provoke a strong reaction. How one responds to such questioning says more about a person than the beliefs themselves.
Indeed, there are those for whom such questioning is welcome. Being forced to defend what one believes is a way of strengthening your faith or afirming ones ideas.
Personally I feel that the old adage about "sticks and stones" is applicable here. I enjoy these debates and relish a good argument!
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quote:Originally posted by Sterling: Why? Because lives are at stake. Not an exaggeration.
I think this is absolutely correct. Religion is so closely held a belief that it ties directly in to our world view, our personal identity, and our means of survival. It's instinctual, fight or flight response, to react very strongly when something so vital to survival is threatened.
If someone told you, in all seriousness, that you would have no food and shelter next week, I think almost everyone would react quite badly. Any strongly held beliefs, upon which your safety and wellbeing rest, must be met with with a serious response.
To many people, the truth and validity of their religion is completely entwined in every aspect of their life. Trying to convince them that they are wrong could be compared to trying to convince them that they have cancer. They must either discount you as uninformed, consider you an enemy, or if they accept that you could be correct, deal with all the consequences that might arise.
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posted
It's because we have personal experience and attachment to our beliefs. And when someone attacks our beliefs, they, by extension attack us.
It's just like a circumcision discussion on another board I'm in. I have my position, and came to it through immense emotional turmoil and hardship. So when someone attacks my opinion or my feelings, they attack me and the hurt I already have over the issue, and further deepen wounds I have over it. They're dismissing beliefs and the cause of them because they can't relate and don't want to.
It comes down to an unwillingness to understand why the other person has come to that conclusion and thus why it's such a large part of their identity. If it didn't matter to them, and they wouldn't argue and fight to protect their opinion, they wouldn't be involved in the discussion in the first place.
My $0.02, anyways.
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