Are there things that are absolutely unforgivable?
Do you make a distinction between things that are unforgivable on Earth but may be forgiven later on?
What about something particularly heinous? What, in your opinion, is required for someone to be forgiven for, say, murder?
To what degree, if any, does the possibility of forgiveness for something negate or weaken the seriousness of the offense itself? For example, if there is forgiveness for murder, does that make murder less serious of an offense than if there is no forgiveness for murder? (I mean, either way, does it change the nature of the act itself, ort only the nature of its punishment.)
I'm sure I'll have follow up questions.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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There is a failure I think on the part of most people to realize that you can punish and still forgive, hold a person to the law but forgive them in your heart.
This goes even to the point of death, you can hang a man and forgive him his sins in your heart. Forgivness is a state that you live in not a state that the world should. There is nothing that cannot be forgiven, but that should not stop you from tearing the heart out of the guy that raped your wife, forgive him after he has been punished and you are fine...
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For me, forgiving is a way of getting back the energy I would spend on the grudge. I'm not much into cosmic answers on this right now -- too absorbed with the practical issue -- but it is my intention to forgive anyone who wrongs me, because until I do, I'm stuck in an unpleasant part of the past.
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I believe forgiveness is something that is deeply personal, and separate from the remorse of the wrong doer. Sure, someone asking to be forgiven makes it easier, but forgiveness is the decision if you are going to carry hate around in your heart or not.
There is a difference between forgiveness and allowing people to hurt you again. So, is there anything that can not be forgiven, I say no, but then again that's theoretical and a lot harder to pull off when someone hurts you or those you love.
I agree with both Sax and Will...that is, you can forgive and still punish, and that the practicality of forgiveness is undeniable.
When it comes to heinous crimes, are you talking about society forgiving or the victim/victims's family? I think society shouldn't be forgiving, because you have to have a standard, you have to have laws that effect everyone to maintain order. For individuals, forgiveness is essential to not turn your heart into a sinkhole of darkness and hate.
So, is a crime worse if the offender does not have remorse? It's hard to say, as remorse is easy to fake, and also could be for the wrong reason, i.e. I'm sorry I was caught.
That's my two cents.
Posts: 6683 | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:When it comes to heinous crimes, are you talking about society forgiving or the victim/victims's family?
I'm hoping to explore this issue from several angles, and people are free to point out angles I've not even considered.
What does it mean to be forgiven? What does it mean to forgive yourself? Being forgiven doesn't undo what you have done. It doesn't, in and of itself, restore lost trust, does it?
Can a child molester be forgiven? By society? By the victim or the victim's family? What does it mean to be forgiven in this case? Is he forgiven if he must register as a sex offender for 10 years? Is he forgiven after the 10 years are up? Can he ever be forgiven in mortality? Is there hope for him of forgiveness in the afterlife? If so, what does that mean? etc.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Are there things that are absolutely unforgivable?
Do you make a distinction between things that are unforgivable on Earth but may be forgiven later on?
I would say no, there are no unforgivable things, and I make no distinction between now and "later."
I am opposed to the death penalty for that reason. I think all humans have the capacity for change, and that we all have an innate drive to be better people. Even murderers, child molestors, and Sadaam Hussein.
It's weird looking at the word itself: for-give. What exactly are you giving? Respite to the offender?
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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I think that a lot of people seem to think that in order to forgive, you have to kind of...I can't think of the right word. You have to be okay with what happened? That's not really what I mean, though.
But I think forgiveness has more to do with that you know that this person has done a horrible thing, and maybe sometimes you still get upset about it, but you don't let it exist as a stain on your soul anymore. If that makes sense.
Can a child molester be forgiven? By society? By the victim or the victim's family? What does it mean to be forgiven in this case? Is he forgiven if he must register as a sex offender for 10 years? Is he forgiven after the 10 years are up? Can he ever be forgiven in mortality? Is there hope for him of forgiveness in the afterlife? If so, what does that mean? etc.
In my specific circumstances- forgiving my father was not about him, but about me. I still tried to have him prosecuted ( unsuccessfully) and when that failed had my name legally changed so it would be much harder for him to track down myself or my kids. I never said, "hey, I forgive you". But I had to do it for myself. You know the saying "Not forgiving is like taking rat poison and waiting for the other person to die".
I'm ap Lutheran, and there's no mortal sin in our doctrine. I wish there were. I don't want to share the afterlife with him.
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romanylass, Please forgive me if this is too personal, and feel free to not respond, or to respond via email.
If you were to end up in "heaven" and he were there as well, what do you suppose your reaction would be? Would it make a difference to you if he were forgiven by God?
Anyone else is welcome to answer hypothetcally as well.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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This doesn't directly answer any of your questions, but I really like this quote from one of my favorite fanfics on forgiveness. The speaker is speaking to someone who has murdered and raped several people, so I guess that somewhat answers your question.
quote: "You regret your crimes, you never want to repeat them -- you've repented, in other words. I'm not saying that you should stop making amends. I think you have an obligation to do so, in fact. The extent to which you'll go to achieve that is a matter for you and your conscience -- or your code of ethics, if you like, since I suspect you think you have no conscience.
"But the problem is that forgiveness has nothing to do with that. It's not a reward for repentance, or for paying off a debt. None of us deserve it, no matter the degree of our crimes, and it can't be earned. It can only be granted. It's an act of love on the part of the pardoner, and you have nothing at all to do with it. It's neither your decision nor your responsibility, and not one single thing you've done can alter or negate it once's it's given."
Brave New World by Aashby
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I can't find a reference on Amazon to a Brave New World by Aashby. But you said it was fanfic. Can you give a link?
Posts: 1877 | Registered: Apr 2005
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I found out I find it hard to forgive people if they don't feel sorry for what they did.
And I have the same feeling towards my mother as romanylass has towards her father, I had to forgive her for myself, but I don't want to share the afterlife with her.
About Gods forgiveness: Isn't there something in the Bible that says that if no one holds anything against you, God will also hold nothing against you?
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Boon
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posted
I was molested by my maternal grandfather when I was a child. When I told my mother, she was livid. She confronted him about it, out on the patio, but he lied and said it never happened. She then called me out there, and he apologized for "anything [he] may have done to make [me] hate [him] so much." That was the end of it. He was never allowed near the house when Mom or Dad wasn't home again, but he was still allowed to come to family functions.
At the time, I thought my mother just didn't believe me about what had happened. I've long since forgiven her for how she handled it.
My grandfather, on the other hand...
No, I've not forgiven him. He's dead now, so there's nothing left to hate. It's not like I think about it every day and am just seething with anger. I've moved on with my life, and I'm okay. I do think about it occasionally, but it's more in the context of how to protect my own children from something like that happening to them.
So yes, there are some things that I think are "unforgiveable." If he had given a genuine apology, recognized what he did as wrong, and sought counselling to avoid the same behavior in the future, then yes, I could forgive him. But he went on to molest other children, and never showed the slightest remorse. I feel that makes all the difference.
I think G-D may have forgiven him, if he's truly had a change of heart. And maybe I will, too, if I can see that he really has changed in the afterlife.
Hmm...I think I need to explore this more in my mind.
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What is the function of forgiveness? What purpose does it actually serve?
I submit that forgiveness is always about the person doing the forgiving, rather the recipient of it. And it is about finding a way to move on despite the wrongs done against one.
At least for Christians, forgiveness is required of us not for the sake of the other person, but for us to be worthy of forgiveness. It is one of the ways, we are told, to be Christ-like.
"Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us..." It's pretty much the first prayer we learn and it's a part of every service.
It is terribly difficult.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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I think...I think that forgiveness can be about humility. It's harder when it comes to issues like forgiveness for abuse - it is definitely not pride that makes someone leery of being hurt again, especially when the perp seems like a monster. I think in cases like that, being able to forgive really is divine - it is so much more than could demanded of someone. It could only be a gift.
For most people, though, the things we are asked to forgive are NOT things like abuse. In the vast majority of cases, being able to forgive means forgetting ourselves and how we have been wronged and being humble and charitable enough to not hold it against someone.
Isn't charity seeing others as the Lord sees them? Giving people credit, seeing things in the best light, not keeping score, inviting someone to your birthday party even though they didn't invite you to theirs.
Although there are huge wrongs and extreme cases, most things we are asked to forgive are smaller. For the small things, maybe not forgiving is pride. (I think for the big things it's flat-out self-preservation.) There isn't a firm line between the big and the small, and I think it's different for everyone.
But maybe, for those small things, forgiving is letting go of ourselves. We stop tallying events and do out best to do out best without counting the cost, and we do not hold what others give against them anymore. We stop making the world be about ourselves.
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I think forgiveness is absolutely about the forgiver, much more than the forgivee. At the same time, it makes me wonder why we seek forgiveness though. Unless maybe, if forgiveness is helpful for the forgiver, we want to somehow fix/lessen the damage we have caused. Does that make any sense? We want to be forgiven because we want the forgiver to feel somewhat better.
quote:Originally posted by Will B: I can't find a reference on Amazon to a Brave New World by Aashby. But you said it was fanfic. Can you give a link?
It's a Harry Potter fanfic, and OSC is very strongly against fanfiction, so I don't feel comfortable posting a link on hatrack. If you google Brave New World Snape, it is the first link that comes up.
Posts: 4655 | Registered: Jan 2002
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I wouldn't say forgiveness is all about the one forgiving. I agree its a huge part of it, but for me if I have wronged somebody I need to know they have forgiven me before I can truly be at peace.
Giving me the silent treatment for an offense can be pure hell for me because I at least in my younger years, could not always accurately surmise what I had done wrong. And to simply shut me out hurt alot.
Not to brag I don't think I did anything to deserve this, but forgiveness has typically come very easily to me. Not that I just let others walk all over me but if I am betrayed by my best of friends and I genuinely feel they have repented of it (not repented as in the divine repentance, but changed their minds as to that course of action) I am quick to take them back.
But if I honestly feel the person may have repented of an act but not the capability I am a hard nut to crack. I don't hold grudges, but I don't allow occasion for betrayal to happen again.
Honestly speaking I have found that a willingness to forgive has kept me in good stead as it can be a life saver when you need to ask others for their forgiveness.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I think there are a few things that, were they to happen to me or those I care about, I would never forgive. Rape, mental abuse (willful psychological destruction or reprogramming through shock therapy), physical abuse (i.e. wifebeating), and murder.
I mean, if someone accidentally hits my lover with a caar and is remorseful, then I can forgive them. But if they hit them and worry about their car, that's unforgivable. And if someone killed my loved one on purpose, there really wouldn't be a quantitative answer to the amount of ruin I'd bring upon their life.
I'm a passionate person, what can I say? Posts: 208 | Registered: Jun 2005
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I think I need to be able to forgive others. I find myself so often in need of forgiveness and sometimes for things that bother me immensely. And I know that if I want to have any hope of someone else forgiving me for something that has hurt them deeply, I need to be able to forgive others when they have hurt me. And if only so that I don't risk holding someone in torture by witholding forgiveness, I find I need to try to forgive as soon as I can. Sometimes it's really hard, but I would count it as a crime, myself, if I refused to forgive someone, no matter how awful a thing they have done.
Part of what makes me feel this way is that some years ago I had a really messy break-up with my girlfriend at the time and it was one of shared blame. But she never did forgive me, and for a long time it bothered me. Eventually I forgot about it and carried on and over-all my life improved a lot. But a little while ago I went to Confession for the first time and when the priest gave me the absolution, I felt such a wave of grace come through me which brought up this old pain which I had largely forgotten (the pain, not the relationship and break-up itself) and wash it away. So for myself, I know that I need forgiveness when I have wronged someone, and if it can stay like that with me, I need to forgive others as well as I can, also, so that my unforgiveness does not stay with them.
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: romanylass, Please forgive me if this is too personal, and feel free to not respond, or to respond via email.
If you were to end up in "heaven" and he were there as well, what do you suppose your reaction would be? Would it make a difference to you if he were forgiven by God?
Anyone else is welcome to answer hypothetcally as well.
Not too personal, no.
Hard to answer though because I'm answering from a human perspective. I think, from the perspective, I'd be angry. But if I'd actually made it to heaven, could I even get angry? I guess I don't know.
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I think that forgiveness is a major part of dealing with any big event in your life. When I was a kid, something pretty bad happened in my life. For years, I was angry about it... angry at my mom for the way she handled it, angry at the person who did it, angry at myself for the way I acted about it. After years of trying to get past it, of praying about it, talking about it, ignoring it, and even going to counseling, I finally realized something. I needed to forgive. I had to forgive myself... I was only a kid. I had to forgive my mom... she was doing the best she could. I had to forgive the guy who did it... he is still a human just like the rest of us and he deserves to be given that bit of dignity. Do I think he shouldn't continue to be punished? No. Will I ever forget it? No. How would I feel if I met him in heaven? Well, I hope that I will have lost all of my own earthly flaws by then and be able to forgive more fully than I could ever possibly forgive now. He knew what he was doing and I think he is still at risk for doing it again. But I can forgive him for what he did. I can allow myself to stop lingering on it and move on and let go of any hate and anger I might have towards him.
Well, okay, I can try.
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Ideally, both. In my case, I have never met the guy so I can't say much on that. But as for my mother, I think that everything is much better after she apologized and I finally forgave her.
Posts: 340 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I agree with Bob and others who've said that forgiveness is for the "forgiver", and it's a process, not a one-time deal.
The best example I can think of is a family I was acquainted with some years ago. Several years before I met them, their oldest daughter was abducted and murdered. She was missing for several days before her mutilated body was found, and there was a huge amount of news and publicity about it. The community turned out in large numbers to help search for her, etc. This was in the days before Amber alerts, but the incident made the national news as well.
After the body was found and the perpetrator apprehended, the family held a news conference to thank the community for all their support. They also mentioned that they had "forgiven" the man who had killed their daughter. As you can imagine, it was a topic of much conversation for many months afterwards.
One woman I worked with was livid that they would say that they'd forgiven him. I couldn't understand why at first, but after speaking with her, I could see that she did not understand what forgiveness meant, at least to me. She seemed to think that since they "forgave" this horrible man who had brutalized their family, that they were somehow "okay" with what he'd done. That they didn't think he should be punished. That they might even be okay with letting him babysit their other children.
I don't believe that forgiveness requires any of that. I believe it means that you are putting the hurt and the hatred away, and allowing yourself to move on. I don't think it has anything to do with the offender's feelings, remorse, repentance or eventual redemption (or lack thereof)... that's entirely his problem.
As for whether I made it to heaven and my "offenders" are there also.. that's a toughie, but I think it's really the crux of christian forgiveness. I believe that forgiving those who "trespass" against me means that I'm giving the entire matter to God. That it will be His decision, and I will be okay with what He decides. I hope by that point I'll be a better person than I am now. Intellectually, I believe that God knows more what's in my betrayers' hearts than I, more about why they made the decisions that they did, and only He can know what their eventual payment should be.
I feel like forgiveness is the path that sets me free from having to worry about those decisions (not that I'm qualified to make them anyway, of course).
I'm glad I won't have to be anyone's judge.
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I think forgiveness is a process. When I think back on some things that have happened, most of the time I feel like I've truly let them go. I forgive myself for my wrong doings and I forgive others for the things they did to me. But other times the pain or guilt comes back at me. Like katharina said, I think its self-indulgent to basque in the pain or guilt and I try my best to get control over myself. But I think on the bigger hurts, forgiveness isn't a one time thing. Every time that pain seeps up, I have to forgive it again. But every time I forgive it, I think it becomes easier to do so again.
I also think that forgivness is also about the person doing the forgiving. But I think one of the most important people we have to forgive is ourselves. It's much easier to forgive yourself when the person you've wronged forgives you. I don't think this is necessary, but I do think that's why people crave to be forgiven.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:Originally posted by cmc: Does forgiveness feel better for the person who forgives or the person who is forgiven?
Sometimes the forgiver does not tell the forgiven. Sometimes contact with the person you're forgiving is bad for your mental health.
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Being forgiven is perhaps about undoing a portion of the long term harm you have done too another.
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I think it's also what katharina said: It's about small wrongs and big wrongs. But I think there IS a firm line between those two: It's exactly the difference between wrongs done by people with a normal working conscience (this would be people who indeed crave for forgiveness and are also willing to forgive others) and wrongs done by people who don't feel remorse for what they do. I think forgiveness means nothing to people without a normal working conscience. They can't feel the worth of it. I just reread 'The Worthing Saga', where they experimented with giving the people that woke up from somec the memories of another person instead of their own. And the result was, that those people couldn't live with themselves. Even though they didn't remember anything about their own lives and only had the memories of this other person, there was something deeper down inside that rejected the memories. I really like this idea, especially since I think conscience is the core of our identity. I only think it is a little bit a pity your conscience can get 'sick' just like any other part of your body or mind. For example, how does it happen that a man starts beating up his wife, and the first time it happens he is really, really sorry and tells her it will never happen again, and then it doesn't happen for a few months. But then it happens again and before you know it he is beating her up regularly excusing himself by telling himself and her she deserves it? Could that be such a load of shame he has built up he is not able to face it anymore and that kills his sense of remorse? Kills his conscience, his craving for forgiveness?
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I agree with those above, self forgiveness is absolutely vital. Especially for victims. There is a weird part of the human mind that will always blame oneself for any hardships that befall.
I know that for me, much harder than forgiving my school tormentors was forgiving myself for being so weak and worthy of torture. True or not, it was needed.
Forgiveness is the heart of living with love in your soul. Human beings will get it wrong, trip up and hurt each other. It will happen. Either purposely, viciously, or by accident, with the best of intentions. You will get hurt, you will cause hurt. The only way to live in this world without hate poisoning you, is to forgive yourself and others.
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posted
I believe that forgiveness is about those who forgive and not those who need to be forgiven.
Yet those who need to be forgiven seek forgiveness for one main reason--so that they can forgive themselves.
A sociopath with no concience does not care if his victims forgive him or not. However the man who accidently runs over a boys dog will desparately seek the boys forgiveness, because only after they have recieved it can they begin to forgive themselves.
I forgive most everyone for the minor things they have done to me. Then again, I have had no major trauma's to test my forgiveness.
However, forgiving is not forgetting. I will forgive a man for hitting me. That does not mean I will lower my defences the next time we meet, and be prepared to hit him back if he were to swing.
Finally, if I were held by terrorists who were about to cut off my head, I would forgive them before the blade fell.
It would be the only way I could hurt them.
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Personally, I believe that in order to forgive yourself you need to be forgiven.
The way I reason that is that if everyone were to just forgive themselves without requiring the ailing party's forgiveness, people would feel no need to change their behavior and would continue making the same mistakes and hurting others with no remorse for what has happened in the past.
It's all part of guilt, one feels guilt when one feels they have wronged. If you have the ability to escape guilt caused by your actions upon someone without any interaction from the other party, is it truly right to forgive oneself if one has not been forgiven? Isn't that almost like rationalizing what you did in order to feel better about yourself?
Perhaps a lot of people would disagree with me, but I believe that in order for it to be right to forgive yourself, you have to know that the person you hurt forgives you. Otherwise it is your burden to carry upon yourself and try to correct what you've done wrong and in so doing strive to become a better person by trying not to make the same mistakes over and over again.
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