A girl I know has a problem with marriage, and with the Army. The Army says she is married, but she isn't.
And she isn't in the service.
She HAD been engaged to a soldier about 3 years ago, but he broke it off after applying for a marriage license. The application was pending, and they never got married. As a matter of fact, the guy married someone else about a week later. (Don't ask...I know I didn't)
She is now getting calls from the Army inquiring about the status of their marriage...which the Army INSISTS happened. When she asks for the source of their faulty information, the y tell her it is classified.
They are prosecuting the guy for bigamy, but that isn't the problem. They INSIST that the marriage happened, even though the county clerk says there is NO RECORD of any such thing.
She just wants to know if she needs to do anything other than talk to the county clerk to make sure things aren't messed up for HER. She doesn't care about the guy...he deserves whatever difficulty he encounters....but this is affecting her too, and she wants to make sure it won't be a problem later down the road if she every wants to marry someone else.
posted
Sounds really really fishy to me: possibly even a phishing expedition. Tell her to contact the office of the U.S.Army JudgeAdvocateGeneral directly. And ask whether they even have knowlege of the investigation. And of whether any JAG officer is supposed to be in contact with her. Then work from there. Either through the JAG office directly if the investigation is for real; and/or through local law enforcement if the "investigation" turns out to be non-existant.
posted
Other than suing the Army, I'm not sure what she can do if they won't even give her their source for their assertion that she's married.
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posted
That is pretty much the total sum of the conversation , from what she told me.
She told me because she knows that I was in the Army....but other than telling her to check with the JAG office to make sure it is legit, and talk to the county clerks office, I really don't have any other ideas, really.
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posted
I have no idea what to tell your friend, but my friend's mother has a different (and yet still potentially very icky) marriage problem herself. She was married, had the ceremony and everything. About two years later now, they're getting a divorce. She goes to the county clerk to get information on starting a separation and divorce proceeding, only to discover that they have no record of the marriage at all. The day the marriage certificate was due to be mailed, she was going to take it to the post office, but her "husband" told her not to bother, he would take it himself later in the day. So she left it.
He never mailed it in.
Ok, so messy divorce no longer a problem. Taxes done as "Married filing jointly" could be a problem down the road. Here's the big issue for her.
Since the marriage ceremony did take place, and the certificate was signed by all necessary parties, it is still good. The (now) ex could potentially take it to the post office tomorrow and mail it in, and from that moment on they would be legally married. The county clerk told her there's no way to prevent it.
So, she could meet someone else, fall in love and get married, only to find out that she is a bigamist later on.
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posted
I'm pretty sure that in most states there is. andi, your friend's mother should consult with a lawyer.
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posted
The ceremony took place, there were witnesses, there were witnesses who signed the certificate. There was and is legally a marriage, unless your mother's former partner was committing bigamy.
Tell your mother to continue divorce proceedings.
Even if there were an insufficient number of or no witnesses who signed the certificate and/or an insufficient number of or no witnesses at the ceremony and/or no ceremony had taken place... ...if a man and a woman cohabitate (share the same home) and represent themselves to be married, 24 states consider them to be married under common law (that number may be lower now). If that couple lives together in a state without common law marriage, then cohabitates in a state with common law marriage, they are married. If they subsequently move to a state which does not have common law marriage, they remain married. Most/?all? states recognize the legality of the marriages that occurred in those common law marriage states. If the common law marriage took place sufficiently in the past, most states will recognise its legality even if the state in which the marriage occurred has since recinded common law marriage. There is no such thing as common law divorce.
Tell your mother to continue with the divorce proceedings.
If nothing else: Her former partner will have to admit to a court that they were married; or deny the marriage ever took place. Tax filings can be used in evidence. There will be a legal ruling on whether your mother is or is not married; and a paperwork trail will be generated. If there is a ruling that a marriage had occurred, no future problems with taxes and divorce proceedings can continue. If there is a ruling that there was no marriage, a LOT of the sting of penalties for tax misfilings will disappear because it can be reasonably argued that the misrepresentation "was made in good faith." Marital legal status for the future will be settled in the here&now.
Tell your mother to continue with the divorce proceedings.
Without the surety of a legal ruling on her marital status, your mother's former partner could reassert his legal status as a husband sometime in the nebulous future. Would your mother want him to make medical decisions for her care should she become incapable of making those decisions for herself? Would your mother want him to make financial decisions on her property should she become incapable of making those decisions for herself? Would your mother want him to inherit her home? In most states, homes automaticly go to the surviving spouse. Unless there was a prenuptial agreement specifying otherwise, most states hold that property is owned by husband&wife as "tenants in entirety."* ie Your mother cannot sell her property without the consent of her former partner; nor put the property up as collateral for a loan. How would your mother feel about making a financial windfall from selling her property, or needing a loan on her property, then finding out she needs (?to buy?) her former partner's permission? What if she can't even find her former partner? ETC ad nauseum: eg Despite the theoretical "tenants in entirety" protection, it wouldn't be that difficult for her former partner to put her property up as collateral, default on the loan, and have the lender win a court lien against your mother's property. Your mother would have to prove that her former partner obtained the loan fraudulently to keep her property. Then there are bank and credit accounts, access to which financial establishments are all too willing to trust in a continuing claim of marriage. Again, your mother would have to prove fraud.
In other words: Without a legal ruling on her marital status, her former partner's future claim to still being married to your mother can prove to be a MAJOR legal and financial headache for your mother, those she entrusts with her medical/financial/etc powers-of-attorney, and her legal heirs.
Tell your mother to continue with the divorce proceedings.
* Or similar phrase with the same meaning or near.
posted
I have a question about marriages too. Mine is entirely curiosity, though.
Is a marriage valid if there isn't a ceremony? I always thought you had to have both the ceremony and the certificate; but some friends of ours went down and got a marriage certificate right before their second son was born, so that they'd be married when he was born, and never had a ceremony. They say they're married now, though, so I'm confused.
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posted
Not even a five-minute ceremony before a state official at the same office where they got their license?
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posted
As to the original question, I think you better contact the JAG office. If they give you crap about the marriage being classified, ask how it can be classified if it is a matter of public record, and how it can be classfied from you when you are one of the involved parties.
The 'Classified' aspect is simply a dodge as far as I'm concerned. There is no way the matter of your marriage, or lack there of, could be classfied as a matter of national security. I say thoroughly challenge that statement as nothing more than an excuse to avoid dealing with there own ineptness.
As to the person who asked about a marriage without a cerimony, I think the cerimony is strictly cerimonial. If you have the certificated signed and witnessed by appropriate parties and placed on file in the hall of records, then you've done everything necessary to satisfy the legal requirements.
As I said, the cerimony is strictly cerimonial.
To the person whose husband forgot to file the records, I think you still need to proceed with the divorce or annulment. In a sense, you need to have that record of your marriage declared invalid to make sure the husband can't file it at a later date.
How you proceed depends on which is more advantagious to you. If may be to your advantage finacially, if there are assets in question, to have the marriage formalized, then get divorced. Or depending on the situation, it may be to your advantage to simply have the existing document nullified. Best to take with a lawyer.
posted
In common law marriage states, no certificate or filing is needed, and a legal ceremony can be as simple as "I am married to you." answered with a "Yes." or "You are married to me." answered with a "Yes." or "We are married" answered with a "Yes." even with no witness other than the marrying couple themselves. That combined with the represention of being married and cohabitation creates a legally binding marriage... ...provided that both members of the couple are of legal age, and neither is committing bigamy.
In states in which common law marriage cannot take place, there has been a trend toward encouraging unmarried cohabitating couples with children to get married by simplifying the process, creating a procedure in which the partners "don't have to embarrass themselves or their children" by admitting to people that they weren't married before the date of the filing. In those states*, filling out (including the names of the children) and filing a form alone creates a "secret"&"backdated" marriage. ie The filing acts to "legitimize" children born before the marriage of the parents: grants full legal parental rights&duties to both partners of the marriage, as well as full legal rights&protections to their children. I'm not sure but I think that for cohabitating couples who don't have children, that method of becoming legally married is available for couples in which the woman is pregnant. No ceremony beyond signing and filing that marriage form is necessary.
Of course you'd have to check out your own particular state's marriage laws to find out if that type of "secret"&"backdated" marriage is a legal option in your state.
* I believe that California became one fairly recently. & The marriage is a matter of public record. Just "secret" in the sense that marriage bureau clerks "Don't tell unless very specifically asked." while other marriages are usually made available on a public list of new marriages, and possibly published in a "newspaper of record".
posted
Excluding the "secret"&"backdated" marriage mentioned just above: In the states without common law marriage, the marriage ceremony must be performed by a person-recognized-by-the-law as having the legal right to perform marriages. And each state has its own law which defines who those persons are. I think* that a person who has the right to perform marriages within one local jursidiction may not necessarily have that right within a different local jurisdiction. eg A city clerk given that power possibly cannot perform a marriage outside of city limits, possibly cannot perform a marriage outside of the office in which s/he works.
posted
Hey, Kwea. Even though some confidentiality might be necessitated by the investigation, BlueWizard has the right attitude. Your friend should hammer away at the JAG: having ones marital status in legal limbo is too serious a matter to be gentle. (With thanks to andi33O for the memory prod) I've got some military specific ideas on how the foulup could have occurred. And some military specific ideas on how to put some real pressure on the JAG personnel who are stonewalling your friend... ...that I'll get back to after some sleep. I've already accidentally deleted this note, twice.
posted
Here in Florida, as long as you pay your $90 and wait three days, any notary public can marry you. There are some things that must be said first including the part where the official asks if there are objections. I'm still curious why anyone would wait until the ceremony to bring up any known legal issues with the wedding, but there you go. (Though it's not a state law. It might be county law or notary policy.)
On another interesting note, it seems to be illegal to perform a marriage in Florida if there's no marriage license. So no religious ceremony unless it's a civil ceremony, too.
Florida law provides for proof of marriage when no certificate exists. Andi, your aunt might want to check on that where ever she lives.
For the original question, I don't know what to tell you, Kwea. I hope your friend gets it straightened out soon.
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quote:The marriage is a matter of public record. Just "secret" in the sense that marriage bureau clerks "Don't tell unless very specifically asked." while other marriages are usually made available on a public list of new marriages, and possibly published in a "newspaper of record".
I think in CA you have to have a court order and/or prove that you are one of the parties involved to obtain a copy of one of these certificates, at least for a certain amount of time. At least, I think that's what I read, I may have been reading something else.
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posted
I have one idea of how the mixup happened....two if you count fraud on the soldiers part, but since he WAS married within a week (to someone else....what a winner, huh?) I doubt it was fraud.
He probably never notified the admin office that he broke up with my friend after he filed the application with her, and when he got married a week or so later to someone different the clerk entering the marriage didn't check the names since there was already an entry.
One way or another, a good lawyer should be able to clear this crap up for her, I was just looking for ideas. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
blacwolve, marriage laws vary state to state, but in most of them signing the certificate in front of two witnesses and a person qualified to officiate is sufficient without further ceremony.
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