posted
At what point is the sex of the child determined? Conception? Later? What is involved in determining the sex?
I've done some wikipedia searching on sexual reproduction and it goes into detail about the different stages from zygote to embryo to fetus to birth but never explicitly states at what point the gender is determined and what is involved in that process.
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posted
I always understood that it is decided at conception, based on whether the fertilizing sperm has an X or a Y chromosome.
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posted
It's decided when the x chromosome from the mother pairs with either the x or y chromosome of the mother. At conception.
There is a point in the development of a fetus where differentiation between a female and male takes place. Until that time the gender of a fetus will not be discernable. It's basically a branch point where the fetus either develops testicals and a penis, or ovaries and a vagina. Until the testicals develop and descend out of the body, a male fetus will appear the same as a female fetus.
There are some medical issues that occur at that stage. When differentiation takes place, I do believe that testosterone is heavily involved for a male. If a male is testosterone insensitive it will develop as a female and not fully differentiate.
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posted
Unless something goes wrong, at conception.
The genetic information that determines boy/girl is carried on a chromosome from the father's sperm. Once sperm meets egg, sex is determined...
but there is always the possibility of mis-firings of hormones during pregnancy, or errors during mitosis, etc. which could cause complications.
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posted
One way to think about this is to first clarify what you mean by "sex," Strider. By that term, do you mean whether someone is XX or XY in their genetic map? Or do you mean what kind of secondary sex characteristics they have (e.g., what their genitals look like)? Or do you mean when one thinks of oneself as a particular gender?
One reason why you may have trouble gettign a clear answer is because "sex" is not a clear term. We treat it as such, but it really isn't. And somewhere around one percent of the population in general is intersex: i.e., has a medical condition in which the persons' genotype and/or phenotype do not fit into the traditional boxes we use.
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posted
It starts at conception, but doesn't really finish determining until death. After the genetic sex is decided at conception (X/Y chromosome in sperm), the child enjoys undisputed gender identity until 6 months of pregnancy, at which point many begin experimenting with amniotic drugs with its friends in the uterus. They lock the door to their bedrooms and try on the opposite gender's clothes, often pretending to be the opposite gender on the internet. They pick the opposite gender when playing RPGs, just "to see what it's like," defending their choice with lines like "it's a game and I'm playing a character."
3 months later, your baby is born wearing a clown suit and stilleto heels, and you'll wonder where you went wrong.
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posted
After the shock has worn off, though, and your baby grows up to be a well adjusted human being aspiring to great things (maybe the next Nobel winner!), one dark, nagging question will remain:
Where the hell did that clown suit come from?
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posted
At around 1 month into the process, a specific gene tells the body how to proceed. Males will have this gene tell the body to swamp the fetus with Testosterone; the swamping of the fetus at this point will produce profound physiological and possibly mental changes. A study I recall reading once shows that already as a baby there are differences in muscular gripping styles between males and females.
At this point, however, AIS syndrome may occur. Genetic males may not respond to the androgen (testosterone) onrush; they may retain their female form, and be born as females. This syndrome will result in infertility, but may not be noticed otherwise.
A further point is that some Transgender lobbyists have argued that this change is the source for their disorder. Imagine a swamp of testosterone that does not adequately alter the brain. Or imagine environmental hormones, as can be found in soy beans and even shampoos!, altering the critical event here.
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quote:Or do you mean what kind of secondary sex characteristics they have (e.g., what their genitals look like)
Does "secondary sexual characteristics" refer to genitals? I've been using it incorrectly - I thought it meant features that distinguish between sexes other than genitals. (Breasts, adam's apple, facial hair, etc.)
I'd be embarrassed except I don't think I've actually used the term more than once or twice.
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posted
huh, i didn't know each sperm had either an x or a y. I guess i should've paid better attention in biology as a kid. Seems like pretty rudimentary knowledge!
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quote:Or do you mean what kind of secondary sex characteristics they have (e.g., what their genitals look like)
Does "secondary sexual characteristics" refer to genitals? I've been using it incorrectly - I thought it meant features that distinguish between sexes other than genitals. (Breasts, adam's apple, facial hair, etc.)
I'd be embarrassed except I don't think I've actually used the term more than once or twice.
Just so ya know, both women and men have [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam's_apple]adams apples[/url]. It is just more prominent in males (typically). The more you know...
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posted
Secondary sex characteristics are certainly NOT genitals. Absolutely not. They are the set of all observable non-genital differences between males and females, perhaps most importantly in how they relate to sexual attraction; a difference in plasma-differences at a cellular level may indeed be caused by differing amounts of hormones, but the observable difference (i.e., breasts or beard) is the secondary sex characteristics.
Hence, secondary, not primary, or genitalia.
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: huh, i didn't know each sperm had either an x or a y. I guess i should've paid better attention in biology as a kid. Seems like pretty rudimentary knowledge!
A female has 2 X chromosomes. That's all she can contribute during conception.
A male has an x and y chromosome. When the sex chromosomes split, you're left with either an x or a y. When an x chromosome sperm fertilizes an egg, you get a girl. When the y hits the egg, you get a boy.
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quote:Originally posted by Phanto: Secondary sex characteristics are certainly NOT genitals. Absolutely not. They are the set of all observable non-genital differences between males and females ...
Hence, secondary, not primary, or genitalia.
I did not say that secondary sex characteristics were the genitals themselves. I used the phrase "what the genitals look like." Development of pubic hair type and spread, the enlargement of the vulva and vagina (and testicles) to adult size, the development of rugae and coloring of the scrotum -- all of these are part of secondary sex characteristics development.
If I had meant to say "what the genitals are," I would not have used the phrase "look like."
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Dagonee, secondary sex characteristics are the changes that usually occur at puberty. These include the changes I note above as well as those you listed.
Since Strider had asked about sex development, I mentioned the changes in genitalia presentation seen as part of pubertal development. If I had been exhaustive in the list, I would certainly have included those you mentioned.
quote:Originally posted by Phanto: At around 1 month into the process, a specific gene tells the body how to proceed. Males will have this gene tell the body to swamp the fetus with Testosterone; the swamping of the fetus at this point will produce profound physiological and possibly mental changes.
This is incorrect.
Leydig cells become active at about Week 8 (which is at 2 months gestation), the Mullerian duct regresses and the Wollfian duct differentiates by about Week 9, and there is not a significant surge of testosterone (from the Leydig cells) until Week 9.5.
quote:A further point is that some Transgender lobbyists have argued that this change is the source for their disorder. Imagine a swamp of testosterone that does not adequately alter the brain. Or imagine environmental hormones, as can be found in soy beans and even shampoos!, altering the critical event here.
There is no evidence that mothers eating soybeans or using certain shampoos during pregnancy increases the rate of transgenderism in the offspring. There is only unsubstantiated speculation and fearmongering.
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posted
Tatiana, I'm hormonally cranky and extremely crotchety. This probably comes out in my writing pretty clearly. Don't encourage it -- it is not a pleasant characteristic. *smile
I should take a break from the forum. I will do that now.
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posted
CT! don't you dare! there's nothing cranky or crotchety in any of your posts on this thread -- i'd say wonderfully informative at best, and bluntly honest at worst Come back and enlighten us!!
Posts: 3516 | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
I'm glad you asked, Strider. I learned it in biology the way CT said, but I've heard people say since then that we're all female and males have to be triggered during pregnancy. I supposet hose folks are confused about the testosterone thing.
That and the explanation of the lizards in Jurassic Park. I think that messed a lot of folks up.
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quote:I did not say that secondary sex characteristics were the genitals themselves. I used the phrase "what the genitals look like." Development of pubic hair type and spread, the enlargement of the vulva and vagina (and testicles) to adult size, the development of rugae and coloring of the scrotum -- all of these are part of secondary sex characteristics development.
Thanks for clarifying CT.
quote:Since Strider had asked about sex development, I mentioned the changes in genitalia presentation seen as part of pubertal development. If I had been exhaustive in the list, I would certainly have included those you mentioned.
No worries - I didn't think it was exhaustive. I didn't appreciate the distinction between genital appearance and reproductive systems. Now I know. And knowing is half the battle!
quote:You guys should know that CT is telling you right!
I didn't say or think otherwise. I simply assumed I had been using it wrong when CT used it in the manner she did. It never crossed my mind for a second she was using it wrong. I'm glad I posted what I did, because otherwise I'd have the wrong impression in the other direction.
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quote:Originally posted by ClaudiaTherese:Don't encourage it -- it is not a pleasant characteristic. *smile
Sez you.... My girfriend is extremely cute when she is cranky, or sometimes downright mean.
Edit because it sounded flippant and demeaning: I am serious here. There are times when my girlfriend has shown an ability to be what some might call "cranky" and others might call outright mean or even virulent. I can't put a finger on why, but an unwillingness to put up with other people's BS is an extremely attractive quality in her, for me.
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posted
I'm under the impression that "sex" referred to the genetic identity of the person and "gender" referred to their apparant or identified, er, identity.
So someone with two XX chromosomes who identified as man would be sex: female, gender: male. For most people, of course, their sex and gender are therefore the same.
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I'm under the impression that "sex" referred to the genetic identity of the person and "gender" referred to their apparant or identified, er, identity.
So someone with two XX chromosomes who identified as man would be sex: female, gender: male. For most people, of course, their sex and gender are therefore the same.
I've never heard of this distinction before.
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Ah, well, I don't think it's set in stone. I think some people divide it this way for modern civilization's sake but it's not a proper defintion.
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: I'm under the impression that "sex" referred to the genetic identity of the person and "gender" referred to their apparant or identified, er, identity.
So someone with two XX chromosomes who identified as man would be sex: female, gender: male. For most people, of course, their sex and gender are therefore the same.
It's both a common and clinically used distinction. I asked the questions I did in my first post because it wasn't clear if Strider was using the language this way -- colloquially, many do not.
Dagonee, you should never assume I am right. I am often wrong. A very human quality.
(JimMe, that's awfully sweet. I am glad you like this expression of strength in a woman. I do, too, but I just don't like how this particular instance of it is making me feel, and I'm pretty sure it is having an unwarranted ill effect on others, too. But thanks for the kindness.)
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