posted
It's a book by Harold Cruse published in 1967. I see it cited every now and then, and I picked it up last week. Cruse makes some claims I agree with: black Americans need to be understood as an ethnicity, rather than a race, and "America, which idealizes the rights of the individual above everything else, is in reality, a nation dominated by the social power of groups, classes, in-groups and cliques...the individual Negro has, proportionately, very few rights indeed because this ethnic group(whether or not he actually identifies with it) has very little political, economic or social power (beyond moral grounds) to wield. Thus it can be seen that those Negroes, and there are very many of them, who have accepted the full essence of the Great American Ideal of individualism are in serious trouble trying to function in America."
He makes some claims I don't fully agree with, but I appreciate that he articulates: "each individual in America is a member of a group. The white Anglo-Saxon Protestants, the white Catholics, and the white Jews are the three main power groups in America, under the political and economic leadership of the WASPs...although the three main power groups neither want nor need to become integrated with each other...the only substantial exception to this picture of ethnic separation is the compartment marked intellectuals and artists.... the creative arts, and mutual professional concerns, we find the classic sociological enemy of ethnic parochialism...in the detached social world of the intellectuals, a considerable amount of racial integration and ethnic intermingling does take place on a social level."
He also goes on to say that every worthwhile uniquely American artistic genre-- that is not just a tired imitation of European standards-- is influenced by black Americans. He talks about Jazz, but in general, I don't think that's true. For example, the Western is quintessentially American and worthwhile, and those stories could be powerfully told without black people or culture.
Then he makes some claims that stick in my craw. I don't know what to make of them, like Porgy and Bess and Gershwin and Benny Goodman being famous because they had white support at the production level, as opposed to Duke Ellington and the numerous black composers and writers who never made it. I mean, he wrote this book in 1967, but I know that he'd have to devote an entire chapter to the social and cultural factors that conspired to make Kenny G the largest selling instrumentalist in history. How did that happen?
Over all, he argues that until black people start becoming publishers and owners, the creative possibilities of black Americans will never be realized, and that this is bad for America, because black people have a unique capacity, due to social circumstance, for original cultural and political thought.
It's not a new argument. He is an unabashed anti-integrationist, and that's unfashionable. Of course, he'd argue that liberal whites have decided when and how to favor integration, and it's still organized to benefit the WASP majority. He didn't look kindly on the NAACP, but I think that organization is different today than it was 40 years ago. I imagine he'd say that MLK was partially propped up by the Man. And while I don't agree that King is propped up by the Man, I do believe that the Man cherry picks which of MLK's speeches and writings get studied in schools.
I started thinking about "To Kill a Mockingbird," and "Huckleberry Finn," and "The Sound and the Fury," and all of the money that is being made as these stories get recycled through schools through publishing and republishing, in the name of studying the American story, and in general, all of those white authors, like Susan Monk Kidd, who have made a fortune on the stories of the moral incompetence of whites lashed out on the body of blacks, and none of that money is passing through the hands of black people or black publishers, and I can't help but wonder if the propping up of black publishers through giving them exclusive publishing rights to these American stories can't be a form of reparations I can get behind.
quote: I can't help but wonder if the propping up of black publishers through giving the exclusive publishing rights to these American stories can't be a form of reparations I can get behind.
It's not one I could get behind. Unless there was a cliff in front of it...
What would be the goal of doing such a thing? From your statement, it seems like the goal is to get money into the hands of black people or black publishers. Which is a decidedly un-Irami type of thing to imply.
There's nothing stopping black voices from being put on the scene today-- for heaven's sake, the strongest voice in influencing literary sales is a black woman. Best sellers are made by the 'Oprah Winfrey Bookclub' logo, regardless of how well written the book is.
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quote:From your statement, it seems like the goal is to get money into the hands of black people or black publishers. Which is a decidedly un-Irami type of thing to imply.
There's nothing stopping black voices from being put on the scene today
There is nothing really helping them, either.
My goal is to get good books written by blacks and chosen by blacks published in wide circulation, for the good of the national discourse. This is a highly competitive field, and I'm looking at an enormous book of WASP and Jewish agents and publishers, and there is something deeply unsettling about a room full of white and Jewish publishers deciding which black authors see the light of day.
Oprah is one woman, and depending on her endorsement makes as much sense as betting one will make it as a professional athlete. Oprah can't do it alone. She shouldn't have to try, and I wouldn't want her to because she is only one POV.
The publishing industry as a whole is run like a business, with agents and the publishers looking to sell the most books, based on previous performance, and hedge their bets appropriately. I'm not sure that enough books, written by blacks but are casually and deeply suspicious of white Americans and white American values(because we are and for good reason) make it to print in the absence of black publishers. It's probably easier to sell an outright polemic or frilly entertainment or books like Cosby's, who points the finger squarely in our own chest.
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posted
I am always rather disturbed by taking skin color into account for the purposes of deciding anything, ever. It just goes against my entire upbringing and outlook...
Sorry, nothing to contribute to the thread, just all squicked out now.
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quote:I'm not sure that enough books, written by blacks but are casually and deeply suspicious of white Americans and white American values(because we are and for good reason) make it to print in the absence of black publishers.
I don't agree with your premise. It seems to me that books about racial identity and struggle are extremely popular in the literary community. I'm also curious if you have numbers to back up your assertion that there is an absence of black publishers. I honestly have no clue what the percentage of black publishers is, but I think your argument would be improved by citing something instead of asserting it as a given.
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quote:There is nothing really helping them, either.
I don't think you've taken the time to look, Irami. There's a tremendous movement in the publishing world to acquire minority voices (African and Latino voices, specifically). It's even reached into the speculative fiction world (that bastion of lilly-whitedom) with the highly acclaimed Dark Matter anthologies.
What's lacking isn't will by the publishers-- but will by the public.
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Also, the idea that someone is racist merely because they aren't a minority is offensive, and I wish you'd find another song to sing.
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quote:There's a tremendous movement in the publishing world to acquire minority voices (African and Latino voices, specifically).
There is also a tremendous movement in the Republican party to acquire minority members, provided that they sound like darker versions of white Republicans. ________________________________________________
Scott, this really shouldn't be that hard for you to wrap your head around. Let's say you have a story about an LDS family in the middle of a protestant enclave in North Carolina. You could write the story a few ways. You can make the family LDS, but don't ever mention it, or you make them nominally LDS, but have them have the sensibilities of Protestants, then drop the issue. I can't see this as being too realistic or compelling, if their religion is deeply felt. I actually see those options as degrading the entire religion. Or you can make a more powerful story where the family is LDS and it's important to them and actually deals with being LDS in a Protestant enclave, on top of whatever plot is also driving the story.
I think the latter would be a better story. I also think it'll have a better chance of seeing the inside of a bookstore if there are LDS agents, LDS publishers, or LDS working in at the top of bigger publishing houses. Whether it's the will of the public, the agents and publishers are going to feel more comfortable with material with which they personally connect.
posted
A publisher or agent isn't going to stay in business long if they push material that they personally feel comfortable with, but for which there is no market.
I have a feeling that there are more powers at play here than a publishing industry holding back minority authors. It's a business, and while that certainly doesn't preclude prejudice, market forces drive it more than individual preferences.
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quote:this really shouldn't be that hard for you to wrap your head around.
It isn't. You're just utterly wrong.
quote:Whether it's the will of the public, the agents and publishers are going to feel more comfortable with material that they personally feel comfortable with.
Publishers and agents are trained to recognize saleable material that they personally object to, or have no sympathy for.
Dude, it's what they do. All day long. They are as professional and as capable in their business as any climatologist, etymologist, or physicist.
quote:There is also a tremendous movement in the Republican party to acquire minority members, provided that they sound like darker versions of white Republicans.
:blink:
Terry McMillan will want to have some words with you 'bout that.
Are you seriously contending that the black authors that are popular today are Uncle Toms, Irami?
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Here are some people that became successful working with producers and publishers that were not dominated by African-Americans: Oprah, Will Smith, Eddy Murphy, Michael Jackson I think, Octavia Butler I think. What Cruse wrote must have seemed reasonable at the time but it is no longer true. Black America has a tremendous influence on our culture, out of proportion to the numbers I think.
I can see publishers or others being blinded by personal sentiment and in fact I think they often or even usually make bad calls. Consider how many times Harry Potter got rejected! But they're obviously willing to carry black culture.
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From what I can tell, the idea that black people who succeed are "trying to be white" is a big part of the problem, Irami. All people should strive to excel and not let "the man" or even their PEERS hold them down.
I'm really disappointed to hear the uncle tom card from you Irami.
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quote:There is also a tremendous movement in the Republican party to acquire minority members, provided that they sound like darker versions of white Republicans.
I think it's unfair to both black and white Republicans to say this. It implies that black Republicans don't understand or don't care that they're being pandered to and that white Republicans have no interest in black members other than as beards to disguise innate racism. I really disagree with this. I think that a large number of black communities are more conservative than white communitites and that there will be more and more black Republicans as time goes on. As it happens, my pediatrician (who is black) is a very prominent member of the local Republican party and I can assure you that he very much believes in their principles.
I don't think that many publishers have racial or ethnic agendas - I think they publish what they think will make the most money. Publishing is a for-profit business and I don't think many publishers would quash a potential best-selling book by a black author about black issues. The color they most care about is green.
Your point about the lack of black perspectives on black issues is well taken. I don't know what the solution is, but I do think it will improve over time. I personally think that Gloria Naylor is one of the great American authors and I am baffled as to why she isn't more popular. Thomas Sowell always seems to get overlooked, too.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: I started thinking about "To Kill a Mockingbird," and "Huckleberry Finn," and "The Sound and the Fury," and all of the money that is being made as these stories get recycled through schools through publishing and republishing, in the name of studying the American story
We read Zora Neale Hurston, Langston Hughes, Toni Morrison and Alice Walker as well.
For an ethnic group that represents 12% of the US population, I think my literary education was disproportionately influenced by African-American voices. I certainly read more literature by black authors than Latino authors, despite them having rather similar national demographics.
BTW, what is the difference (according to Cruse) between race and ethnicity? Is it the inclusion of cultural accoutrements (e.g. shared history, dialect, etc.) If so, can it be accurately applied to all black Americans, including recent immigrants from Nigeria and Ghana? If not, are there semantics you would recommend to distinguish the groups?
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quote:For an ethnic group that represents 12% of the US population, I think my literary education was disproportionately influenced by African-American voices.
This was true of my literary education as well.
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quote:BTW, what is the difference (according to Cruse) between race and ethnicity? Is it the inclusion of cultural accoutrements (e.g. shared history, dialect, etc.) If so, can it be accurately applied to all black Americans, including recent immigrants from Nigeria and Ghana? If not, are there semantics you would recommend to distinguish the groups?
IIRC, race generally refers to little other than the color of your skin, whereas ethnicity implies culture.
With regard to your second question, I think there was a thread on that before -- while most people are aware that black Americans and black Africans represent two different cultural groups, no one could quite come up with a way to distinguish the cultures of black African immigrants in this country from larger black American culture.
--j_k, edited to clarify.
[ March 26, 2007, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: James Tiberius Kirk ]
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posted
Kirk is correct. At a point in the book, Cruse makes a distinction between the West Indies blacks and the American blacks in New York, saying that one of the startling differences between the groups was that the West Indies blacks, while definitely black, culturally didn't carry the sense of being a minority in this majority-ruled American democracy. It accounts for a different set of virtues and vices. _________________
In high school, I read a lot more Southern white authors than black authors on race in America. And the black authors I read weren't the ones I would have picked if I'd chosen.
__________________
quote:I don't think that many publishers have racial or ethnic agendas - I think they publish what they think will make the most money. Publishing is a for-profit business and I don't think many publishers would quash a potential best-selling book by a black author about black issues. The color they most care about is green.
Publishers are going to publish what they believe will make money, and err to the conservative side, and every agent has his or her niche they feel more comfortable shilling for, and have a marketing plan to back up the success they purportedly have on their hands.
I do admit to speaking out of my depth and working from intuition, but I think you all are too. It's a given that publishers are working for the bottom line. What is not known by anyone who has posted on this thread is how they get there, and who gets forgotten or raised in the process.
It took me working in a college Admissions Office and then in a Senator's office to understand how these systems we assume are clear and reasonably fair, are not so much just as much as they are stable and predictable. I'm curious as to what OSC says are the virtues and vices of niche publishers versus large houses. He has published copiously through both, from writing stage plays at BYU through Tor and now runs his own house.
quote:What is not known by anyone who has posted on this thread is how they get there,
How they got where?
It's true that there is a dearth of African Americans in the publishing business; but can you show me where they are being discriminated against when they attempt to enter it?
quote:and who gets forgotten or raised in the process.
You can't prove this type of thing ever, ever. And so you seem to be assuming that competantly composed works by African Americans are being rejected because the WASPS and Jews can't handle the negro intellectual underdog pissing on their sacred tree.
I call baloney.
If anything, they're not buying the books because the reading public, black, white, brown or red, has not cared about what intellectuals think since 1987. It's a fact that African American literature starved throughout the 70's and 80's, and was reborn when Terry McMillan surfaced and gained both popular and literary acclaim.
It's not that black voices aren't being heard.
It's not that those voices aren't genuine.
It's that YOU, Irami, don't accept them as fulfilling..
Ethnic literature is surging in importance and a dialogue is being held. Publishers are seeking out ethnic/cultural stories and publishing them at an unprecedented rate. Never before in history has the minority voice held such importance in the American literary landscape.
The change is Good. I'm all for working more voices into the market. But let's stop with the baloney that publishers are racist; publishers are eager to find the book that will make them money.
You know what torks me about this? Irami's complaints sound like young writers' whining-- 'Publishers are old and staid.' 'Publishers only want to publish cliche.' 'Editors don't want creativity, they want saleability.'
It's crap. I hope, Irami, that you do not use the racism excuse to justify why your novel should be sold.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: Kirk is correct. At a point in the book, Cruse makes a distinction between the West Indies blacks and the American blacks in New York, saying that one of the startling differences between the groups was that the West Indies blacks, while definitely black, culturally didn't carry the sense of being a minority in a this majority-ruled American democracy. It accounts for a different set of virtues and vices.
I was confused by your characterization of the ethnic group as "black americans." I would have thought (semantically) that term referred to all americans who were racially black rather than ethnically...whatever semantics could be used to represent the group you have in mind.
quote:In high school, I read a lot more Southern white authors than black authors on race in America. And the black authors I read weren't the ones I would have picked if I'd chosen.
What black authors did you read and why wouldn't you have chosen them?
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quote:Ethnic literature is surging in importance and a dialogue is being held. Publishers are seeking out ethnic/cultural stories and publishing them at an unprecedented rate. Never before in history has the minority voice held such importance in the American literary landscape.
I totally agree. But the problem is that this is happening while huge changes are taking place in the publishing market(s) as well as the broader media/cultural landscape.
I have no idea what the solution is. But I don't think we can count on the publishing industry at all.
Granted, it all depends on who you want to reach, but I think that ethnic intellectuals (be they African-American or Mormo-American or Armenian-American) are going to need to use the tools of populism, free content, viral marketing and social interaction if they want to have any chance of being heard. Luckily, I'm content to speak to a very small audience so don't need to spend the time and cultural capital to figure it all out.
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quote:For an ethnic group that represents 12% of the US population, I think my literary education was disproportionately influenced by African-American voices.
This was true of my literary education as well.
As a student in a University English program right now, I can also agree with this. Not only are African-Americans heavily represented in the required American lit survey courses, but my school requires a semester of African-American literature for graduation. There is no such requirement for literature written by any other ethnic group, nor is there a requirement to take a class on literature written exclusively by women.
In fact, I'm finishing up my second semester of American Lit surveys and I don't think I've yet read a piece of literature written by a Hispanic American, Asian American or Native American.
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quote:I hope, Irami, that you do not use the racism excuse to justify why your novel should be sold.
I actually don't have to worry about this. I have enough white friends from college, working in the publishing industry, that I can call in a solid if I don't get published through the traditional means. In this situation, I'm part of the right group. I'm just not going to pretend that it's a good system.
Senojretep,
A handful of Maya Angelou poems and maybe a Toni Morrison novel? In addition to "To Kill a Mockingbird," and Huckleberry Finn. A significant amount of time was spent on the latter two. I wish I would have read, "Sport of the Gods," by Paul Dunbar instead of the Toni Morrison.
Belle, et al, the point at issue isn't the number of black authors being published, but rather, who picks which black authors and why. Maybe I don't want liberal whites or Oprah picking my black authors. Maybe I don't think "Waiting to Exhale," is the most thoughtful and cunning fictional representation of race in America. I personally think Charles Johnson is four times the writer and thinker, and I think that there are black writers writing about black Americans who are four times better than he is.
posted
I think that the study of african american literature is a good thing. The reason it is overrepresented in American literature has to do with the overall cultural effect that black Americans have had on our wider society.
Additionally, blacks have spoken English for longer than any other minority group in America; they've had a longer time to integrate into society than other races. There's much more written by African Americans than by any other minority group (although I think Latino writers are starting to catch up).
Blacks kind of paved the way for racial integration in the US. There's a legitimate reason why their literature is important, as far as history is concerned, because so much of it concerns that struggle for equality. Stylistically, their stories are important because the conventions that were used by Toni Morrison, Zora Neale Hurston, etc, are standards today. (One could make a good argument that magical realism was birthed from Morrison, Hurston, Ellison and other African American writers with a penchant for fantastical imagery and rhythmic prose).
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I can't see Charles Johnson making it on to high school (and even undergraduate) syllabi. He is too difficult to pigeon-hole.
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In theory, the black intelligentsia should be weighing in on which black writers are deeply insightful and worthy, but for complicated historical reasons and poor matriculation, there isn't much of a black intelligentsia to speak of. We have Oprah and a few middling wits and preachers, and we outsource some of the heavy lifting to liberal whites, but liberal whites don't want to give air to the virtues of segregation and conservative whites are too busy taking care of themselves to worry. There are times I appreciate the way Baldwin called white liberals "our affliction." There is Charles Johnson, Danielle Allen, Julian Bond, and others, but in a powerful way, we need independent black publishers deciding on black writers with an eye towards cultivating a black intelligentsia. It's good for America because it's distinctly possible that somewhere in the non-existent black intelligentsia is the last piece of the puzzle of how to justly live in a diverse liberal capitalist democracy.
posted
I want to be a writer, but i'm interested in taking it to the next level. I'm frustrated by aspects of feminism, of aspects of what you are talking about, Irami and really think we should take it up a notch. Somewhere beyond dualities because it's just making me absolutely insane and angry.
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quote:Originally posted by Scott R: There's nothing stopping black voices from being put on the scene today-- for heaven's sake, the strongest voice in influencing literary sales is a black woman. Best sellers are made by the 'Oprah Winfrey Bookclub' logo, regardless of how well written the book is.
There's nothing stopping the rich black people from being put on the scene today. There's too big a gap between the rich black population and the poor one to consider a broad statement like that true. However, the fact that both the rich and the poor are labeled by the same stereotype doesn't help the situation either.
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Well, I haven't read the book, but he's got a point about Benny Goodman and Gershwin, etc. Benny Goodman was known as the 'king of swing', when there were black bands that could (and did, Chick Webb's band, for example) swing them right off the stage. Gershwin came out of Paul Whiteman's band, which was a self-proclaimed attempt to 'civilise' jazz by taking the 'Negro' influence out of it. Whiteman was known as 'The King of Jazz' by the white music world which enabled him to get all the exposure. Non-Black America's only exposure to the music in the 20s and 30s was through white bands like these. Whiteman's was mostly rubbish, but he was still the King of Jazz to a majority of the population.
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The book was written 40 years ago, but I imagine that Harold Cruse rolling in his grave at the dominance of Kenny G.
Synesthesia,
The black feminist movement is a complicated and terribly intriguing muddle because black women have had to deal with black men, and black men have been so damaged and cast from the mainstream economic, political, and educational spheres that you have people like me, who don't care about some man's law, or get people like the guy portrayed in this article.
quote: After he saw us talking to white people just any kind of way, he'd tell us stories about how white mobs used to maul and lynch young black men even if they only raised their hands to strike back in self-defense. He talked about men he'd known when he was growing up in rural Georgia who had been lynched, and he'd tell us he knew his "place" and that we had to learn "our place." This wasn't our experience, so we thought that he was just plain scared of white people. He could not convince us to show deference to white people just because they were white. They didn't have to be honest or morally respectable. No, they just had to be white and they were due our respect. Racial respect.
We lived in a Polish ghetto in Detroit, Michigan. We couldn't fathom this "our place" stuff. Virtually all of our schoolmates were white. And for a long time, all of our neighbors were white. We were not going to concede honor and rank to any white peers just because they were white.
"That don't make any sense to me," I'd say. "You da one who ain't got no sense," he'd say.
My Daddy lived before Martin Luther King was known, so My Daddy was the first advocate of nonviolence and passive resistance I knew. Martin Luther King could not compare to him; My Daddy was the ultimate pacifist in the face of white people. I was not proud of My Daddy for either his philosophy or his behavior.
My Daddy said, "Yes Suh" and "No Suh" to all white males, old and young. They could call him "nigger" or "darky," but he would just tip his hat and say, "Yes Suh."
Getting angry and insane doesn't help anybody. Hold it together and read some books.
SoaPiNuReYe,
There is a difference between moneyed blacks and a real intelligentsia. I mean, C.J. Walker was rich, but I don't know if anyone should hold the world's first hairess as a model on how to cultivate the Talented Tenth.
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quote:Originally posted by Irami Osei-Frimpong: In theory, the black intelligentsia should be weighing in on which black writers are deeply insightful and worthy
<snip>
Right, because no one else is qualified to talk about this. Posts: 1069 | Registered: Feb 2005
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I don't want anyone to think that I dislike studying Black authors - some of my favorite works, particularly some of my favorite poets are African American. I just wanted to point out that there is no shortage of works by African Americans being studied in today's literature programs. In fact, we've gotten so far away from the "dead white guy" literature classes I honestly think we are neglecting to study some pretty darn good dead white guys. For example, I have a survey class that doesn't include Keats.
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quote:Right, because no one else is qualified to talk about this.
No, but there is a reason the Da Vinci Code didn't win the Pulitzer or get rushed into classrooms, and that reason is not a matter of money or popularity, but rather, the white intelligentsia. I see this as a good thing. _____
I don't have strong feelings about Oprah, but from what I hear, that school she built in Africa is an extraordinary example of a person putting her money where her mouth is.
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I am reading some books. That's one reason why I'm so mad. It seems like not one side has it right, they are all so incomplete and need to get it together. You know you're annoyed with the world with all sides are just making me want to run screaming into the night.
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quote:There's nothing stopping the rich black people from being put on the scene today. There's too big a gap between the rich black population and the poor one to consider a broad statement like that true.
Are you saying that only rich black writers have the chance to be published? If so, where do you come by this conclusion?
Again: I don't see any undue prejudice in the publishing industry. The prejudice against Irami's type of literature is in the public.
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I'm saying that poor black people don't get the chance that the rich blacks do when it comes to publishing. It isn't the publishing industry, it's the whole experience of being poor that holds them back. There's so many things that can prevent poor people from getting far in life in terms of almost any field, black or white.
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When you say 'publishing,' do you mean the actual publishing industry (in which case, I may agree with you), or do you mean the act of being published (in which case, I do not)?
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quote:I'm not sure that enough books, written by blacks but are casually and deeply suspicious of white Americans and white American values(because we are and for good reason) make it to print in the absence of black publishers.
I would think that this distrust is part of the problem.
This isn't so much of a class issue as an ethnic issue, or better put, it is both a class and an ethnic issue. If you take a look at the high school and college graduation rates, broken down by ethnicity, the disparity between races is enormous.
Sure, if you adjust for parents income, the numbers start making a little more sense, but there is still a gap, and that gap is cultural. White people don't like talking about this, so I'll put it in a way they can't pretend not to understand.
If you look at the gap in graduation rates between high school women and men, women are graduating at a higher rate. It's not a matter of economics. Here is an article, if you want one. These are people born in the same family, where the daughter goes to college and the son drops out of high school, gets a job or goes to the military or goes to jail.
Why is that the case? I believe, in general, the cultural demands and orientation of girls is different than the expectations and demands of boys. This phenomenon is exacerbated by ethnic differences. Furthermore, the shape of our educational institutions, on some levels, is better fit for women. Just as, at some levels, the shape of our business executive culture is a better fit for men. Maybe it's part biology, maybe it's part sociology, who knows? We can't even get to this discussion because by now people start seeing red and blathering.
Why are women doing better in school? It's possible that the shape of the curriculum, and the entire institution, better reflects the transparent cultural demands and expectations of white, Asian, and Jewish women.
I actually think that men have, for too long, given up on making the elementary and high school curriculum relevant. The President and the First Lady are a paradigmatic example of these priorities. She is a school librarian, and he can't talk about literature without setting his tongue squarely inside of his cheek.
For black men, the schools were never tailored to deal with the unique position of being black in America, and required us to ignore those special responsibilities, burdens and blessings, if we were to succeed. The curriculum was not set by black men, administered by black men for black men, largely because there has never been a fully staffed and articulate black intelligentsia-- financially independent from a white political majority-- to discuss what the shape of what such an education would look like. Never. Not now, and in the history of this nation. That debate has never happened. Even if we get the numbers, the quality and depth of the intellects in the room isn't high enough to pull such a coup off, without cribbing-- without due analysis-- the latest wisdom drummed up by liberal whites. The result has been that white professors and politicians, liberal and conservative, have inadequately designed the American standards and practices, with goodness in their hearts. Here is the news flash: "To Kill a Mockingbird" is not written for black men, nor is Huckleberry Finn.
These are the reasons why you can adjust for economic factors and still have those disparities. _____
Why are immigrants doing so well? They moved here to win. They have that hungry, morally ambiguous ethos that says, whether it's learning English or learning golf, cast off that history, dignity, and native sense of propriety, and become a predatory WASP, man. They take to this land with a robust sense of, "When in Rome..."
quote:They have that hungry, morally ambiguous ethos that says, whether it's learning English or learning golf, cast off their history, dignity, and native sense of propriety, and become a predatory WASP, man.
Ahh, yes. Now this, this is vintage Irami. Far-reaching telepathy into the motives of entire races or categories of people, coupled with a morally critical judgement from on high.
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quote:Why are immigrants doing so well? They moved here to win. They have that hungry, morally ambiguous ethos that says, whether it's learning English or learning golf, cast off their history, dignity, and native sense of propriety, and become American, man. They take to this land with a robust sense of, "When in Rome..."
...
Prove you're serious about calling immigrants morally ambiguous and cultural deserters.
Elaborate. With facts.
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It's like proving the existence of God. My father is an immigrant. I have a personal relationship with immigrants. My quality of knowledge doesn't submit to your standard of proof. Like a good Protestant, I feel it in my heart.
quote:Ahh, yes. Now this, this is vintage Irami. Far-reaching telepathy into the motives of entire races or categories of people, coupled with a morally critical judgement from on high.
quote:It's like proving the existence of God. My father is an immigrant. I have a personal relationship with immigrants. My quality of knowledge doesn't submit to your standard of proof. I feel it in my heart.
Well, that's to be expected.
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quote:It's like proving the existence of God. My father is an immigrant. I have a personal relationship with immigrants. My quality of knowledge doesn't submit to your standard of proof.
That's an interesting response.
Are you presuming to be representative of black intelligentsia?
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