Two questions. First, what is Chavez hoping to gain here? He's been fairly bellicose toward the US for some time, and this is really just another example of it. I haven't been able to decide what I think his game is. Is he trying to broaden his support among a populace that has strong anti-US sentiments? Is he trying to make a name for himself on the international stage? Is he trying to curry favor with nations that dislike the US? Is he just a person whose paranoia is driving him to act in ways that aren't particularly wise? I'm sure there are other possibilities that I haven't thought of. So I suppose my first question is what Chavez's game is.
Second, how serious would it be if the Chinese were to get an F-16 to take apart? There are plenty of people here who know more about military hardware than I do. How old is the technology in the planes Chavez is threatening to give to China?
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
China already has a F-16 varient so this is kinda dim witted of chavez, a F-22 or even better a F-35 would be great.
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I have enough of a knowledge of military hardware to know that it depends almost entirely on how new the F-16 is, Noemon. I mean, those things are tricked out like a car show.
It could potentially be useful for all sorts of things. Communications, electronic counter-measures, sensors, documentation, intelligence on all of those could potentially be very useful, if they were new.
But seeing as how these planes are years old already, and he's being so public about it, the threat isn't very substantial. Those sorts of things can be changed pretty easily, and they are improved regularly as a matter of course.
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Rakeesh is probably right. If they are that old, the avionics and other technical specs are probably a generation behind what the current F-16 is using. It might be the Chinese or Cubans could get SOMETHING out of it, but it's an empty threat.
Personally, I don't see why we shouldn't sell him the spare parts. 20 old F-16's could be wiped out by a squad of F-14s or F-35s from a carrier. They aren't a threat. If it's for political reasons then that's something else. But either way, Chavez is grandstanding.
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Actually, the parts resupply embargo is personal as well as business. The (general in charge of the) VenezuelanAirForce was the first to oppose the US-backed coup d'état against Chavez, and the other military branches soon joined in: which pretty much squashed hopes that the padrones could resume their looting*.
I'd guess the embargo probably means that this Administration intends to resume the guns-for-drugs trade to support "Venezuelan" "rebels" in their quest for "justice" and "freedom". And this is the first step toward grounding military overflights and helicopter-backed quick response teams to make it easy for the "rebels" to operate more freely. Expect the price of drugs to drop sharply as USCustoms agents are told to look the other way while police&prosecutors are asked to stop their investigations because "It would interfere with an on-going federal investigation." Also expect the news media to parrot the government line of "this new threat of a cheap supply of extremely potent drugs from Venezuela" as the DubyaAdministration begins its marketing campaign to boost illegal sales.
* The cash from which being deposited in US banks. That and similar behaviour in other LatinAmerican countries plus dollars from the guns&drugs trade is how the slum-in-the-sun of geriatric Miami,Florida,USA became the hip&swank banking capital of LatinAmerica. And why no one in the CIA's internal security or the FBI questioned how a CIA employee -- later exposed as a Soviet mole -- was able to afford to live in a multi-millionaire neighborhood. They just assumed that he had "earned" his excess of money from his previous position as CIA station chief in Columbia. "Don't ask. Don't tell." at it's finest.
Maybe I should ask for a link...
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Blayne Bradley
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I'm not surprised.
K, I talked to a friend of mine and if its the F-16H or the F-16J then it probly would help A) boost forces strength and B) improve their current abilities somewhat and understand any weaknesses in their own design or in the american design. Assuming that the Chinese equivilent isn't already better then the F-16.
Next, at the very least the F-16 is the easiest to get spare parts for on the open market and would help that if the Chinese adapted their next generation design to a more F-16ish look they could maintain it easier.
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I suspect that Chavez is impressed with how the poorest* country in the Americas has the third highest life expectancy and the third lowest infant mortality rate. In a ?UN?survey of nations ranking medical care in terms of care given to all of an individual nation's citizens, Cuba's medical system was ranked higher than the US medical system. And Chavez gives the credit to Castro's government.
Ya gotta remember that except for a brief interlude of militarism in Angola and the SouthwestTerritories -- at the SovietUnion's behest in exchange for the economic support to endure the US-led Embargo -- Cuba has a fairly good international reputation due to the work of its medical missionaries in many of the poorest parts of the world. It also provides free (usually) medical training for citizens of nations that face the most acute shortage of medical personnel.
Sadly, including medical school for US citizens because the US medical establisment's priority is in keeping physician's fees high by training an undersupply of new physicians. I think the total number of US medical school students is ~17thousand per year. And hospital/clinic demand for medical residencies -- ie cheap labor -- is around 22thousand positions opened per year. The other 5thousand are stolen/braindrained/recruited by US hospitals from the poor&physician-poorer nations. Some of the poorest African nations with the highest shortage of physicians have +80% of their new physicians recruited by the EU and the US. Where most of them settle after residency. For nurse training and recruiting, I think the discrepency between numbers is even higher.
So for those whose dreams don't include being financial fat cats setting up their own dynasties of useless descendents, Fidel can be seen as an attractive figure.
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sigh... Perhaps you can correct my misquided statements, Parsimony, so that I may be sufficiently informed to avoid such mistakes.
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It seems contradictory to me to say that our "medical establishment" actively keeps the number of doctors down to keep prices high, and simultaneously that it drains talent from other countries. Either they want new doctors or they don't. I don't see how you can have it both ways.
Also, while some people become enamored of Cuba's "revolutionary" history, Castro most assuredly does not have a "fairly good international reputation."
He makes mirror.co.uk's list of the ten worst dictators every year, coming in at number nine this year:
quote:The world's longest-surviving dictator has in the last few years carried out the biggest round-up of non-violent dissidents in more than a decade.
(I'm not positive if this list is actually just the same list that David Wallechinsky makes in collaboration with Amnesty International, Freedom House, Human Rights Watch and Reporters Without Borders, which seems to be all over the internet, but even if so, it would suggests that Castro's reputation suffers in pretty much all first world countries.)
I could not find a more recent report on Amnisty International's website than this 1998 report (their search engine was not working, and I had to google), but I'm sure they haven't disappeared off of AI's radar in the last seven years. (AI has its roots in a British editorial, and was founded by delegates from Belgium, UK, France, Germany, Ireland, Switzerland, and the US.)
Human Rights Watch is based in New York, but they are not a partisan agency--their own site lists US human rights abuses more prominently than those of any other single nation. Here is their overview on Cuba.
Wading through the UN website was a nightmare and a lesson in futility. I did find this 1993 report on human rights--it's very long, but you can skip to the conclusions on page 30 or so--and this report from January of this year. The most recent report blasts the US-led embargo on Cuba, but nevertheless criticizes Cuba's human rights record, especially with regard to political prisoners and the right to dissent.
I think that's a fair smattering of international opinion on Cuba, and I think it makes it pretty clear that your prior statement was erroneous.
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The U.N. Commission on Human Rights also voted last year to adopt a resolution deploring the “actions which occurred [in 2003] in Cuba in respect to sentencing of political dissidents and journalists."
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Icarus, I think understand what you are getting at, that Chavez(or anyone else) should not be holding Cuba up as an example of human rights. I completely agree with that. However, we, as a country, have just as bad, if not a worse, reputation in the world right now when it comes to human rights. From some of the sites you listed: Amnesty Int annual report on US
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I hate to say this, but the US problem with "Human Rights" is semi-laughable in comparison to the rest of the world. I mean this in the nicest way. Amnesty and other groups denounce the US for the death penalty; which is fine, they can take that position.
Human Rights Watch regales us with tales of how bad we are to immigrants... when in fact, we are one of the few nations in the world that takes in illegals and will not turn them away from hospitals upon arrival, even if they are returned.. we pick up the tab for their medical expenditures.
HRW and Amnesty despise the three strikes law, etc.
They can make their cases based on moral grounds, but uh, I can't find any sort of moral equivelency with Cuba.
Cuba gets praised greatly because they lack things like a three strike law and seldom use the death penalty (shockingly, per capita, they use it as much as the US but no one brings that up).
Little issues plague Cuba that some see as human rights (that HRW and others don't take into account) Little ones like: Criticising the government openly can be a jailable offense; while there is "some" freedom of religion, Churches cannot express doctrine opposed to Castro.. convictions without trials (which are frequent).
Castro is in many ways what a lot of people fear (believe) Chavez is. He was "elected" once (Castro in 1959) and then refused to hold any further elections. When you shut the people out of their government... I consider that a human rights problem as well Posts: 202 | Registered: Aug 2005
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foundling, I was mostly just objecting to the specific claim made here about Cuba's reputation in the world.
I am aware of the human rights problems we have in the US, and even noted specifically the criticisms one of those sites leveled at us. It grieves me horribly to see us move further in this direction. (So if you're painting me in an ultra-conservative USA All The Way sort of box, you are way off . . . )
However, I do disagree with your wording above. Our reputation in the world right now is pretty terrible in general. I would say the main two reasons for this are our recent decision to promote preemptive warfare as a legitimate cause (and all of the nastiness that had proceeded from that), and simply our size and strength--we're a big, powerful target, and people have reason to fear us and be jealous of us. [I recognize that my wording in the first point there is not politically neutral. I apologize for this to those conservatives who are put off by it, and merely point out that whether you agree that this is true or not, it's what the world is saying, so even if you don't think it is an accurate representation of what America is doing, it is, I think, an accurate representation of how America is being perceived.)
HOWEVER, as bad as our reputation in general may be, and despite the fact that we have substantial, and growing, reasons to be disappointed in our nation's human rights performance, our reputation when it comes to human rights (specifically, as you said) does not even begin to compare to that of Cuba.
(Note that this is a matter of degree. I am not saying we're blameless, just that comparing us to Cuba on this point is absurd)
We have freedom of the press. We can speak against the government, and post messages against our government on bulletin boards. We have access to messages opposing our government, and will not be punished for accessing them. We have actual choices at election time--they may be between the lesser of two evils, but our choices are certainly more legitimate than those a Cuban citizen is faced with.
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(Castro's first "election" was a farce too, though.)
-o-
We both use the death penalty, but in Cuba it is frequently used for dissenters. In this country it is applied to serial murderers and rapists, etc. One might be so opposed to the death penalty as to see no difference between the two, but I personally see a great deal of difference.
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"(So if you're painting me in an ultra-conservative USA All The Way sort of box, you are way off . . . )" Good lord, no. I have read enough of your posts to know how amusing that thought is. Thanks for the clarification.
However, I dont believe it is a matter of degree when it comes to the situation we are talking about in this thread. It started with Chavez, and then aspectre brought out some valid points about his(Mr. Chavez, that is, not aspectre) relationship with Cuba. I understand that you were only disagreeing with a single point of his, that Cuba had a decent international reputation. But, when it comes right down to it, it is understandable that a Latin American country would look to Cuba, rather than the US, and more specifically this administration, as an allie(how the hell do you spell that?). The US has a HORRIBLE history of human rights abuse and support of human rights abusers in Central and South America. This administrations policies are no different. We still support policies and rulers that are extremely harmful to the people of these countries. The reports on the websites of Amnesty Internation and Human Rights Watch do focus on what is going on inside our borders, and yes, we enjoy a higher level of rights than most countries, and by far more than Cuba. However, what we support OUTSIDE our borders gives sharp lie to our claims of ardent support of human rights. And it is what we do outside our borders that we are most harshly judged on, because it is those actions that are most likely to affect other countries. It is also why Cuba CAN claim a certain amount of respect from the world community. Regardless of what they do inside their borders, they do send huge amounts of aid, mostly in manpower, on a regular basis to other countries in need. Regardless of the motivation behind it, they have the infrastructure in place to be of aid to others, and they use it. The US, in the past, has also garnered this respect due to its generous aid to people in need. But we've also garnered a whole lot of hatred due to our incredibly wrong headed policies to countries that we want something from.
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quote:However, what we support OUTSIDE our borders gives sharp lie to our claims of adrent support of human rights. And it is what we do outside our borders that we are most harshly judged on, because it is those actions that are most likely to affect other countries.
posted
I hope he does something to the U.S. It might give a reason to finally go after him and Cuba. Then again, considering how much news he is getting, and how little actual attention from those who really matter in the U.S., he is just blowing smoke.
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Heh I'd comment on this but I've been hearing Chavez say stuff like this since I first heard of the guy. If you live in Venezuela you have to listen to him spew this sort of junk on a weekly basis.
It's laughable that he thinks he can threaten the U.S. How could he make my country sink this low? Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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You better be careful, and I'm being serious. You could literally (and legally sadly enough) be thrown in jail for what you just said. Making fun of Chavez is a criminal offense.
Edit: I hope you are at least using an anonymous proxy.
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I suspect that Rico, as a citizen of Venezuela, probably knows more about what is and isn't safe in his own country than do people from other countries, don't you think?
Well, maybe I'm speaking too soon. Bao, I don't know anything about you. Are you Venezuelan?
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
Bao's name would imply something Asian in mho.
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I am not Venezuelan. However, I do have family living in the area however, so I take an avid interest in the regional politics (my wife is an immigrant from Argentina). Thus, here is the link for an article from Human Rights Watch, speaking of the law.
quote:“While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.”
The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.
Blayne,
Although I'm American, I lived in ROC for a couple years and speak Mandarin Chinese. I was impressed with the story of a ancient Judge by the nickname of Bao Qing Tian. He also shares my Chinese-given surname. There are many interesting stories about him, if you care to look Posts: 1412 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
woot I was correct after a fashion.
Doy uo have a microphone/teamspeak/msn? I'm starting to look around for Mandarin lessons, so far I'm learning it from a tourist phrase book and Zhao from Canton.
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I appreciate your concern Bao, I am currently living in the U.S though so I'm fairly sure Chavez's oppressive laws have no effect on me at the moment. As of the moment I entered the U.S my rights to free speech trump anything the fool I am saddened to have to call the President of my country has to say.
It's so sad seeing your homeland degress instead of advance. So much progress was being made before Chavez came into power Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I'm glad to hear you are here Rico, I apologize for the assumption that you were still in Venezuela.
One thing that really frustrates me with Chavez is thathe successfully convinces Venezuela's poor that 'the problem' is 'out there' (ok so its specifically the USA and capitalism in this case). However, IMO the number one reason for the economic problems in S. America is government corruption. All he has done is successfully shifted the focus to an external problem. [aside]In many ways this sums up my frustration with our current administration.[/aside]
Another major problem I see is that he cannot stay in power if he actually succeeds in his goal of helping alleviate poverty. The way I see it is once people become lifted up from poverty enough to actually stop worrying about their next meal, then they will not be happy with the repression of their civil rights. In order to stay in power, the poor have to stay where they are. Of course, this is really no worse than the rich staying in power and helping powerful, rich friends, but I think its important to recognize it for what it is as well.
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Among the poor (sadly by far the majority) he is immensely popular. Among the rich, they can't stand him. The thing is that what endears him to the poor isn't sustainable. He just gave like 4 billion dollars from his country's oil profits to the poor (which is really a good thing). The problem I have with that is how does that help them a couple months from now? How does it help their children?
Edit: It reminds me of when Castro made it a point to give all households a rice cooker with his extra money.
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"He just gave like 4 billion dollars from his country's oil profits to the poor (which is really a good thing). The problem I have with that is how does that help them a couple months from now? How does it help their children?"
I was under the impression that he used this money to create more missions, and the purpose of those missions is to teach. In fact, because of those missions, illiteracy has dropped a huge percent(I'll have to look up again exactly how much). Most of the money Chavez is "throwing around" has gone into social programs that are specifically designed to address long term issues for poor people. Or at least, that is what I've read. Is this not true?
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quote:Originally posted by foundling: "He just gave like 4 billion dollars from his country's oil profits to the poor (which is really a good thing). The problem I have with that is how does that help them a couple months from now? How does it help their children?"
I was under the impression that he used this money to create more missions, and the purpose of those missions is to teach. In fact, because of those missions, illiteracy has dropped a huge percent(I'll have to look up again exactly how much). Most of the money Chavez is "throwing around" has gone into social programs that are specifically designed to address long term issues for poor people. Or at least, that is what I've read. Is this not true?
If you count giving away beer and liquor at your local poor neighborhood as addressing long terms issues, sure
I know it's pretty much impossible to tell unless you actually live or know people who live in the country, but the majority of his statements are blatant lies. Much like communist Russia used to boast about how well they were doing during the cold war and how happy their people were with their prosperous economy.
The facts: Crime rates are skyrocketing, the economy is dwindling (this is what happens when you all your money to the poor, give Cuba free oil, etc) because he is not making investments, he's treating his treasury as if it were his own personal bank account. I can't vouch for the literacy rates going up or down, but given the rest of the circumstances, I would assume that if anything it's decreased.
His popularity, even among the poor, dwindles over time. I believe one of the biggest reasons he's still in power is simply because of fear and corruption.
Have you guys heard about his policy on dollars? He's put al imit on the amount of money you can exchange into American currency. The limit is a measly $10,000. He did this because he wanted to stop people who were unhappy with him from leaving the country, the reason a lot of people are still even in the country is because he's basically holding them prisoner. It's really appalling. Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by foundling: I was under the impression that he used this money to create more missions, and the purpose of those missions is to teach. In fact, because of those missions, illiteracy has dropped a huge percent(I'll have to look up again exactly how much).
These missions (I've heard of sewing programs as well) are just a method of political indoctrination and re-education, according to independent observers.
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Thanks, Icarus, for providing the other half of the Castro equation. My intent was to merely point out a reason for the difference in perception between someone living as a ThirdWorlder as opposed to someone living as FirstWorlder. Even though they both may be living in the same country.
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Please don't jump on aspectre, y'all. He hasn't disprespected you. If you don't believe what he's saying is factual, do what Icarus did and show where he is wrong, please.
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Umm...I don't think Rico was busting on aspectre there, but rather the link. Gringo terrorism indeed. I laughed too, but it wasn't at aspectre.
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While in Florida as a missionary, I spoke with dozens of Cubans in their native Spanish. It was a very humbling experience. I have never met anyone who loved the United States as much as these people did.
I have only once met someone who hated any other human being quite so much as they hate Fidel Castro, and she was a Jewish Holocaust survivor. The first time I saw him mentioned in front of a Cuban, the response terrified me; this wonderful, kind, and extremely intelligent man I thought I had gotten to know fairly well was instantly transformed into some sort of raging evil twin. He ranted, cursed, and used a couple dozen epithets in Spanish I had never even heard before. It was fully twenty minutes before he settled down. And, as I learned later, he was relatively almost calm about the subject.
One of the exiles had pictures of a Cuban hospital. Free health care? Debatable. Depends on what your definitions of "health care" and "extreme infection risk" are.
Nearly everyone had lost a friend or relative to Castro's regime; they were simply "desaparicido" (disappeared) and never heard from again. These exiles were *never* ignorant, uneducated castaways, not in North Florida. Everyone I talked to was educated and had been a Party member of at least some standing. They knew what they were talking about.
I also knew several Venezuelan expatriates, all of whom were highly educated, all of whom had started out dirt poor, and all of whom had very strong opinions on Chavez, none of them positive.
I have exactly zero respect for Chavez. Any man who claims to be friends with Fidel Castro deserves none, and beyond that the man is a tyrant, pure and simple. A tyrant and a demagogue; I read one of his speeches where he blamed the United States and capitalism for an *earthquake* of all things. I'm not sure if it ever was translated into English....
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Yeah just for the record, I wasn't laughing at aspectre, I'd never do that. I was just laughing at the link. Sorry for the possible confusion Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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