posted
I don't even know what to say about this. I almost bit my own hand when I read about his family being murdered.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Thank God for the soldier who took pitty on him and decided to help.
<rant>
I'm sorry, I know the thread isn't about this at all, but I read things like that and I cringe. I don't know how literal you were being with that statement, but should I damn god for all the soldiers that took no pity and slaughtered innocent men, women, and children? For all the countless atrocities committed by the Nazis?
It's heartwarming that this man's life was spared as a child, and it was a great act of compassion by the SS officer, but to attribute it to god seems to me to not only minimize what the soldier did, but all the millions of deaths that weren't prevented as well.
I'm not trying to offend any religious people, and I'm not suggesting you stop using the phrase "thank god" to express thankfulness at a happy outcome, but its use in this exact type of situation and the thoughts that would stem from it were the first thoughts to lead me away from religion at a young age. </rant>
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
That's funny, Strider, because I agree with you about it, but I have a very different response to it.
Your conclusion isn't the only one, though.
Basically, I don't blame God for people's crappy decisions. The evil things men do are allowed because we have free will. The Lord won't stop those evil things because that would take away our free will, and then there is no meaning to anything we do.
On the other hand, if all good impulses come from God, then when someone does do something good, they are acting on a prompting, a softening of the heart, that came from the Lord. They still have to decide to be brave and to act on it, but you can thank God for the good impulse he gave that soldier while not blaming him for the evil choices other people made.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: That's funny, Strider, because I agree with you about it, but I have a very different response to it.
Your conclusion isn't the only one, though.
Basically, I don't blame God for people's crappy decisions. The evil things men do are allowed because we have free will. The Lord won't stop those evil things because that would take away our free will, and then there is no meaning to anything we do.
On the other hand, if all good impulses come from God, then when someone does do something good, they are acting on a prompting, a softening of the heart, that came from the Lord. They still have to decide to be brave and to act on it, but you can thank God for the good impulse he gave that soldier while not blaming him for the evil choices other people made.
What she said. I'm surprised we found some common ground on this topic Javert Hugo.
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: Basically, I don't blame God for people's crappy decisions. The evil things men do are allowed because we have free will. The Lord won't stop those evil things because that would take away our free will, and then there is no meaning to anything we do.
On the other hand, if all good impulses come from God, then when someone does do something good, they are acting on a prompting, a softening of the heart, that came from the Lord. They still have to decide to be brave and to act on it, but you can thank God for the good impulse he gave that soldier while not blaming him for the evil choices other people made.
Am I correct in understanding that you're arguing that humans are essentially evil beings, and that all good actions occur at least in part because of divine intervention?
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Noemon, I think that the problem with that is thinking that Divine inspiration is less a part of a person than other impulses.
I don't believe that the Divine (whatever we call it) is separate from us in the way we are used to thinking of outside agents acting on somwone.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Just because I thank God for something doesn't mean I am reducing the soldier's actions in any way, shape or form.
I say thanks every day for the good things in my life...even those I pay for myself.
I see God in the good things we do for others, but it is always and foremost our choice to do those things. It's called Free Will.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: Am I correct in understanding that you're arguing that humans are essentially evil beings, and that all good actions occur at least in part because of divine intervention?
That about sums up my church's philosophy on it. We can choose to be like God, or we can choose to focus on ourselves.
That's the bit that confuses folks sometimes. Sin and evil are everything that aren't of God. So you don't have to be out killing folks to be evil. You just have to be preoccupied with yourself instead of others.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
it just seems to me that there's a lot of "thank god" going around and not a lot of "damn god". God always gets props when things go right, but never takes the heat when things don't. It's always our fault, or we can't see god's mind, or don't understand his plan, need to have more faith, etc...seems hypocritical to me, at best.
quote:On the other hand, if all good impulses come from God, then when someone does do something good, they are acting on a prompting, a softening of the heart, that came from the Lord.
And where do evil impulses come from? The devil? Or god as well? Or like Noemon says, are they innate(which in essence would be from god as well)?
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I sort of agree with what both JH and kmboots said. I think God is made up of truth and light, and our souls were organized of the same stuffs, and we can choose to tap into it, or ignore it.
I thank the part of God that is in my self, that magnifies good choices I might make that will lessen evil and unwarranted suffering in the world.
The part about him hiding in the forest and biting his hand made me cry. He was so young. What a thing to carry by yourself.
Posts: 3936 | Registered: Jul 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm going to have to go with Strider on this one. Too often, god is given the benefit of the doubt even when he allows millions of people to be slaughtered. How does that make god Love, for those of you who believe that?
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think (again) that we are running into the problem of thinking of God as some external being with magical powers.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I can't agree with you, Mighty Cow. When people make terrible choices, I think it's because they are choosing to. No matter how much it pains the Lord, I don't think he'll stop someone if they are determined to do evil.
I value my own free agency too much to wish others' away.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: I'm going to have to go with Strider on this one. Too often, god is given the benefit of the doubt even when he allows millions of people to be slaughtered. How does that make god Love, for those of you who believe that?
OK so how many slaughterings does God have to prevent in order for you to be satisfied that he is love? Obviously the instance of this little kid is woefully inadequate for you. Does He have to prevent ALL killing? 90%, 75%, 40%?
You know at least for me, I have always believed that birth like death is traumatic for some, exciting for others, and everything else in between for the rest. Extrapolating on my own theology when it came time to be born we were already mature, active, adults in spirit form. We were about to embark on a journey, that would see many of us lost. We would be stripped of almost all our knowledge of God. Many of our friends that we had developed friendships with over the course of millions to trillions of years would be lost to us, in some cases forever. Some of us destined to be born to families that love us and try hard to adapt to us, others to families that would make life unbearable. Some of us would not even be born into the world, we'd live just long enough to have been said to live, while others would endure long trials of 90 years or more. I am sure some cursed God for his seemingly unfair plan and sided with the force that has always opposed good. I am equally sure that others saw the necessity of it all and stepped forward determined to succeed in spite of it all, and excited to test their mettle.
It does not all make sense to me, outside of the fact that I am here, right now. So it must have made sense to me at some point otherwise I would have refused to come down here. There are many things that at the time seemed too horrific and unpleasant, and yet only later did I find out why they were important. The quickest example I have of this is vaccinations. I worried myself sick thinking about a needle entering my arm, all to prevent something I did not know anything about and had no reason to believe in. Life makes sense to me more and more as I study and ask God for clarity, but I don't think anyone with a finite mind can understand every single factor that goes into God's decisions in running this world.
I do know that when I speak with God and do as He says, I am happy.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not saying God should push people so hard that they cannot possibly choose to do evil.
I'm just saying that if God is going to push people a little bit so they're more likely to do good, he should push some people really, really, really hard.
Being able to do evil .000000001% of the time is still free agency.
Where's your cutoff point?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: On the other hand, if all good impulses come from God, then when someone does do something good, they are acting on a prompting, a softening of the heart, that came from the Lord. They still have to decide to be brave and to act on it, but you can thank God for the good impulse he gave that soldier while not blaming him for the evil choices other people made.
If all good impulses come from God, then I would argue if someone doesn't do something good, they didn't get strong enough impulses.
Only being able to do good when prompted by God doesn't sound very free, for that matter.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: I'm going to have to go with Strider on this one. Too often, god is given the benefit of the doubt even when he allows millions of people to be slaughtered. How does that make god Love, for those of you who believe that?
OK so how many slaughterings does God have to prevent in order for you to be satisfied that he is love? Does He have to prevent ALL killing?
That'd be about right. Instead we have a petty God who gives us free will to make our own choices and then gets pissed off and jealous when we decide to do things on our own (despite giving us capacity to do so). In retaliation, despite having some not-so-inconsequential power to intervene, he decides to let us kill each other. In some cases, depending upon your particular flavor of Christianity, he punishes us for all eternity.
posted
JH: Let me try to be more clear. If I understand correctly, you believe that people can only do good things when God prompts them to - softening their heart, as you put it.
So if God doesn't prompt someone, then it follows that they are unable to do good. If I am only allowed to go the the restroom when the warden says I am, I'm not really free.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Javert Hugo: ...or they didn't act on the promptings which are always there and God doesn't force anyone.
I don't agree with your logic in either statement.
How do you account for someone with a mental illness who commits a crime (say rape or murder)? If one of his/her stronger symptoms was hearing voices in his/her head, wouldn't god really need to dial up the signal to get through all the noise? Even then, would whatever sane element left to that person's psyche believe the source?
Isn't god in some way responsible for that person's condition? It could have developed because of PTSD or eating lead paint chips or it could have existed from birth. Either way, the circumstances of god's oh-so-great "plan" caused this person to be this way and caused them to act in that manner despite his gentle nudgings over breakfast cereal every morning.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
What power to intervene are you talking about? And are you using a literal interpretation of scripture for the "pissed off and jealous" part? And doesn't letting us make our own decisions mean letting us kill each other?
We have the freedom to kill each other; we decide to use that freedom to kill each other. How is letting us kill each other an act of retaliation? We had that freedom already.
Again, Primal Curve, you are talking about God as if God were some external magical being.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Primal Curve: I'm going to have to go with Strider on this one. Too often, god is given the benefit of the doubt even when he allows millions of people to be slaughtered. How does that make god Love, for those of you who believe that?
OK so how many slaughterings does God have to prevent in order for you to be satisfied that he is love? Does He have to prevent ALL killing?
That'd be about right. Instead we have a petty God who gives us free will to make our own choices and then gets pissed off and jealous when we decide to do things on our own (despite giving us capacity to do so). In retaliation, despite having some not-so-inconsequential power to intervene, he decides to let us kill each other. In some cases, depending upon your particular flavor of Christianity, he punishes us for all eternity.
Thanks, god!
None of what you said is true of the Christian God, at least not the one *I* worship. Our motives to Him are far more important then our acts in of themselves.
IMO anyone who believes that God punishes ignorance as severely as intentional sinning is gravely mistaken.
edit:
quote:How do you account for someone with a mental illness who commits a crime (say rape or murder)? If one of his/her stronger symptoms was hearing voices in his/her head, wouldn't god really need to dial up the signal to get through all the noise? Even then, would whatever sane element left to that person's psyche believe the source?
How can anyone know that save God? If somebody with a mental illness raped/murdered another person, I wouldn't be in a position to know how the man got from Point A to Point B. I can try my best to understand it, but ultimately the explanation is God's to reveal.
Certainly it is understood that somebody with a mental illness deserves more compassion for heinous acts then a person of sound mind and understanding.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Pointing to the insane isn't relevant to those who are not. Whole different thing.
I think we all of part of the divine within us, and if we listen and pray for, we get even more than that. Choosing to commit evil - especially Nazi-level evil - means deliberately ignoring that light we all have. We always have it - the light of Christ doesn't go away. We have to drown it out and ignore it if we don't want to feel it.
MC, you're perfectly clear. I just think you're wrong. Also, I do not agree with you summary of my position.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
JH: Please explain, if you would be so kind, how my summary of your position is incorrect, or more specifically, summarize your position so that I can see where I am wrong.
If you wouldn't mind addressing why and how you think I'm wrong, I would appreciate that as well.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:If I understand correctly, you believe that people can only do good things when God prompts them to - softening their heart, as you put it. ... So if God doesn't prompt someone, then it follows that they are unable to do good. If I am only allowed to go the the restroom when the warden says I am, I'm not really free.
1)This summary is incorrect. I believe that all good things come from God - good desires, good promptings, soft hearts, charity, all of it.
However, I also believe it is always there. We are made by him and have the divine with us, and there is the light of Christ that influences all of us. Rather than permission from the warden to use the bathroom, the bathroom is always, always there and we always have access to it if we want it.
So, I don't agree with the part about God not giving enough good promptings and you can tell because people do evil. There are always enough - we always have the light of Christ.
2) I don't agree with the part where you eliminate the person's choice. You are making a humongous leap here - you are eliminating the possibility of free will off the bat. You are assuming that people do what has been impressed upon them, and you leave no room for someone being prompted to do good and doing evil instead. In other words, you are starting with your conclusion - no free will exists.
3)I do not equate promptings with impulses. A prompting is sort of tap on the shoulder, a still small voice, while an impulse is unthinking and comes from the gut. Sorry about the metaphors, but I make a distinction between them.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thank you for the clarification. OK, I'll see if I understand any better.
So the light of Christ influences all people, and if people do good, it is because they are following the prompting of God.
As far as good or bad choices, it seems that the only way people can choose to do good, is if they are correctly prompted by God. We do not have it in us to do good without following God's prompting.
So with no prompting, one cannot do good. It then follows that good acts have some threshold of prompting that allows us to complete them. More prompting should produce a greater likelihood of good acts.
If tell your child once to say please and thank you, or you remind them every time the opportunity arises to say please and thank you, it is obvious that the stronger prompting will produce better results, even thought you never once remove the child's free agency in the matter.
If a parent only told their child once to say please and thank you, and the child thereafter didn't say them, it seems clear to me that more prompting on the part of the parent would have produced an equally free yet more polite child.
Shouldn't the same apply to God? If people choose to do non-good acts, isn't it logical that God could prompt them more consistently, more clearly, or more forcefully to better encourage right behavior?
Why is the light of Christ influencing a mass-murderer only a still, small voice when he should be shouting in the man's ear "Thou Shalt Not Kill!"?
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote: It then follows that good acts have some threshold of prompting that allows us to complete them. More prompting should produce a greater likelihood of good acts.
No, it doesn't necessarily follow. I disagree with that leap there.
I think that the amount of prompting and light we do get from the light of Christ is plenty enough to show the way to doing good acts if we want to.
I think that, fundamentally...I think that fundamentally you are not placing a high value on free will and are therefore holding God responsible for people's choices. When people behave badly, then you think God is doing something wrong.
That's the fundamental assumption I disagree with.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
MightyCow, the metaphor of God as parent is generally useful, but seems to be an obstacle here. These promptings are, I believe, better thought of as coming from the God that is present within us as coming from some external source.
And I do think that we all have that good as part of us. I do think that some people or even all people under different circumstances have more obstacles to accessing that good inside them. Some of those things can include physical problems like those mentioned above. Sometimes being incarnate sucks.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
JH: Your view of free will certainly has some constraints built in. People are only as free as God allows them to be free, as they are unable to do good except with the prompting of God's light.
Why not allow people as much freedom as they want, as long as it's good? I can't physically jump from the ground and fly, but I still consider myself free, even with that constraint. It makes sense that I could still be free if I was constrained to not do evil.
Posts: 3950 | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hmm...you know, I never said your second sentence there. That's a constraint you've invented.
The light of Christ is always there, and since people can clearly do crap in spite of it, it sure doesn't look like compulsion.
quote:Why not allow people as much freedom as they want, as long as it's good.
Because we don't learn anything that way and we don't grow. Opposition in all things, and we are here on earth for a purpose - to grow and develop through experience and making (true) choices.
I think that's one of the scariest things about this life - we are subject to other people's crappy choices. It isn't just that I'm afraid of the consequences of MY choices; I am a little afraid of the consequences of other people's choices, as I do not live in a bubble (although this recent Summer of Buffy got pretty close).
Still, the freedom is worth the risk.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:That about sums up my church's philosophy on it. We can choose to be like God, or we can choose to focus on ourselves.
That's the bit that confuses folks sometimes. Sin and evil are everything that aren't of God. So you don't have to be out killing folks to be evil. You just have to be preoccupied with yourself instead of others.
I think that's fairly close to how I originally learned it. Basically, evil is the absence of God in one's life in the same way that a shadow is not itself an object, merely the absence of light. Although, admittedly I'm not sure if that's something I actually believe.
----
quote:The light of Christ is always there, and since people can clearly do crap in spite of it, it sure doesn't look like compulsion.
If people have to take the blame for when they choose to bad things, they should likewise get the credit for the good things they choose to do. God shouldn't get the credit unless he took away the choice altogether and made you do the good thing.
quote:Still, the freedom is worth the risk.
What about when God intervenes in human affairs? Do those people still have free will?
Posts: 1256 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
