posted
Ok, I'm still thinking through this, so please bear with me.
Part 1. How mockery fits into the TOS. (Caveat: yes, I believe there is a double-standard regarding religion.) I don't believe mockery in and of itself breaks the TOS, but it can. I also think to a degree it's the equivalent of a straw man argument, and it's rare that anyone puts up with those in a serious conversation, but faulty arguments aren't against the TOS.
I often think in analogies, and I've thought of several for this. However, every analogy is faulty, and I haven't found one yet that despite its faults satisfies me.
In this case, I believe the TOS were violated, but not in any way that they're not violated pretty regularly. If each incident were policed to the letter of the TOS then either the character of the forum would change a heck of a lot, or I would quit. Probably both. And I don't know what if anything should be done about that -- we haven't destroyed ourselves yet.
Perhaps the analogy I'm looking for is those poles people use to support young trees. I used to see trees tied to the poles, keeping the trees growing straight, but my understanding is that it was found that when the tree wasn't given any freedom to bend it became brittle and would more easily break after the pole was removed. Now I usually see two poles, one on either side of the tree, and a type of elastic band holding the tree to each one. The poles are still effectively unmoved, but the tree is allowed some freedom, as long as it stays within range of the pole. The tree then grows stronger. If that analogy holds well enough I don't need to explain it, and if it doesn't then explaining it won't help. It's still not perfect for me, but it'll do for now.
Not sure I'm through with part 1, but I'm going to move on.
Part 2. Why I dislike mockery. While I'll admit that the ability to mock oneself can be beneficial in some ways, I don't think that means mocking someone else (or oneself, necessarily) is a good thing.
Personally, I also find mockery to fall into the same category I put grumbling/complaining (especially when complaining in such a way that it's intended for humor) -- it's contagious, and often insidious. It's really easy to join in, even when I'm aware it's something I don't want to do. I think it's damaging to the soul (not a specific religious meaning there -- sense of self/inner being/etc.). I'm also competitive by nature, so when I do choose to take part in such mockery, I try to be the best at it, and so run the risk of being the most hurtful ('cause I can be good at it when I try). Sometimes it makes me think of Nafai when he was taunting Elemak -- it's not that I mean what I'm saying, but I found a cool way to say it, and once I found "teh funny" I had to say it.
I think sarcasm is a softer version of mockery, and I'm sarcastic a lot. I self-censor more than I used to, but the thoughts are usually there, and probably make it out more often than I'd like. I have a lot of room for improvement, which at times can make it tough, because of that whole beam/mote thing. And often (pride alert) I feel like I have the mote and someone else has the beam, and in that case what should I do? I don't know. And what if we both have beams or both have motes?
Part 3. Why I reacted as I did. As I mentioned, I think I reacted more strongly to the Alan Thicke thread than to the Devil's Music thread. Part of that may have been the word "conned." I'm not a real big fan of the site or the program (as in the concept, not the television show, which I've never seen), I'll admit. Some of the methods/suggestions seem pretty silly to me, even when I agree with the material in question (which I semi-frequently do not). I can see looking at it as being Hollywooded up by Kirk Cameron being there, and the fact that there is a T.V. show means it can readily be lumped in with all televangelists. Again, since I've never seen that show (nor to my recollection more than a few minutes tops of any other televangelist show, which sadly doesn't stop me from slipping in to mockery of them on occasion), I don't know what the story is there.
But the other guy there on that front page, Ray Comfort -- I've met him. I've talked with him. And he's not trying to con anyone. One can quite reasonably disagree with him and his beliefs and his methods (one of which is mockery, of course), but a con it ain't. And I'm pretty sure I got defensive on his behalf.
Maybe a year ago, I was having a conversation with a guy at the gym. We talked fairly often, and he's a bit more fundamentalist than I (though I go to a more fundamentalist church, I think). I can't remember exactly the way the discussion went, but at one point he said to me, "Mike, get a job." My very un-Moose-like response: "F--- you."
He was saying to me, "I think we're operating from different assumptions, and you need actually to be out in the (meaning "my") workplace to really understand what I'm talking about." But he used words that set me off, because they'd been used by other people in similar but not identical situations, and it meant "You're a lazy schmuck." (Is it schmuck or shmuck?) And the words put me right into the mindset of the other conversations. I think that's what happened here. (I and the guy from the gym cleared things up in a few minutes after I calmed down and gathered my thoughts a bit.)
Part 4. What now? I think the meta-conversation in the music thread (though I didn't take part in it) was good for me (though that's from a dyed-in-the-wool navel-gazer). Was it good for you, too?
I think there has to be some give and take to keep conversations going, but I'm going to continue to use my judgment (though I do listen to counsel) as to when too much give is being taken, and comment when I feel it's warranted (I'll try to be a little more measured in the future). Sorry that the line isn't black-and-white, and that you'll have to deal with the fact that I as my imperfect and biased self am the person determining which shade of grey is acceptable at any given time. I still think it's the better solution. But then I would, wouldn't I.
posted
Interesting, I never knew which thread people were complaining about having been locked. I guess I could have gone looking for a lock, but I haven't felt like it.
I'd also add that I'm appreciative of your moderating the forum. I've run hot and cold with Hatrack, but when I had my car accident I wondered where I could tap into the collective experience of several dozen intelligent folk, and it worked out really well for me. I think I am ready to also apologize for what a schmuck I've been the last two weeks.
I have all these issues about apologizing lately, not because I hate to do it, but because I do it so easily I never know if I'm sincere. I have hope of being less schmuck-like, though.
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