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To those who believe, I honestly mean no offense, I am curious: Where do you believe heaven and hell are, or are they beyond that sort of physical restriction?
Posts: 655 | Registered: May 2005
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"Second star to the right, straight on til morning".
"Why this is hell, nor am I out of it."
There's no such thing as hell. And heaven, as it relates to hell, doesn't exist either. That's not to say that there isn't an afterlife. There is. It doesn't exist in our world, though. Not in our physical universe.
Our world is a subset of existence. The afterlife is another subset of existence.
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I'd go more with the "outside of conventional time and space" deal. Also, they can be states of mind occupied during mortality.
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In my opinion, heaven and hell are conditions rather than geographic locations. They describe the state of our relationship with the Divine.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Heaven is generally held to be a separate plane of existence, so it could be assumed hypothetically to be a 'physical' place, but even if it was physical in the same manner as our own plane, there is no way to infer how it spatially relates to our own plane.
Hell is part of the Florida panhandle.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: hell: I would lose my optimism in the universe if such a horrible place existed.
Really?
The idea of sentencing anyone, even Hitler, to eternal torture has always bothered me.
Sure, it's not a pleasant sort of doctrine. Would it necessitate giving up on optimism, supposing you were an optimist?
Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2005
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Blayne Bradley
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pretty much, because then no matter what I do or how good I do it, that is where I would enevitably end up if it exists.
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Supposing there isn't an all powerful god who loves us like his own children, does that give us reason to despair? I mean, the atheists and agnostics don't get too worked up about it.
That's not to say there aren't plenty of reasons to despair. See: Candide.
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: pretty much, because then no matter what I do or how good I do it, that is where I would inevitably end up if it exists.
It seems like you're not very optimistic to begin with. If you knew of the existence of "Hell", then you're certainly not too far away from arriving at the conclusion that there's probably a Heaven too. Which puts you on the right track to making it there. An assumption that you couldn't make it there regardless belies a lack of optimism totally unconnected to the existence of Hell.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Fusiachi: Supposing there isn't an all powerful god who loves us like his own children, does that give us reason to despair? I mean, the atheists and agnostics don't get too worked up about it.
The problem is not with God, it is with a God that would be cruel enough to damn people to eternal torture. A God that did that would be much worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. No amount of evil that someone could do in a finite amount of time ever justifies eternal torture.
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Why are we so sure that God condemns us? I believe that we can only condemn ourselves. And why do we think that wherever we are at the moment we die is where we stay forever. If there is eternal life, why can't we change our minds?
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: In my opinion, heaven and hell are conditions rather than geographic locations. They describe the state of our relationship with the Divine.
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So there's a God, and he's cruel (in this one instance). Working within the Christian paradigm, he's also responsible for our existence, and access to eternal paradise. So he's not perfect (and "perfection" is a tricky concept). In the meantime, why bother being bummed out about it? I mean, you've got eternal paradise in front of you.
Optimism might be naive, but pessimism isn't much of a way to live, if you ask me.
Posts: 433 | Registered: Feb 2005
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LDS doctrine, as I understand it, describes two stages of afterlife. The first, called the spirit world, is divided into a paradise and prison. Paradise is a state of being engaged in God's work, and having interaction with him. Prison is a state of, perhaps the best word is rehabilitation, in which those who believe but fell short in mortality are given an opportunity to work through their short comings, and those who didn't believe are given the opportunity to change their minds. As I understand the doctrine, the spirit world exists in some way within the shared space of the earth, but is veiled from our own existence. What this means is ambiguous to me.
The second stage of after-life occurs after the resurrection, i.e. reuniting of spirits with physical bodies which will occur at Christ's second coming. In what is generally called the Final Judgment, Christ will separate us into kingdoms, according to the level of obedience, reprentence, faith, charity, etc. we have shown, and according to the degree we have allowed Him to enter into our lives and change us to become more like Him. In the end, the highest kingdom is reserved for those who are willing to live as Christ lives, to do what He does in all ways and at all times. Kingdoms are as diverse as the individuals who inhabit them, and Christ's judgments will be deemed just by all those who are judged. In a way, our kingdoms will be determined by ourselves and our desire for a relationship with God more than they will be assigned to us. The earth at this point will have ceased to exist as we experience it today; it will go through a perfecting process, and become an abode for perfected beings (made perfect in Christ). Those who don't choose to live with Christ will no longer live on this Earth, but will physically reside (inasmuch as "physical" descriptions can be used in imortality) elsewhere.
Anyone, LDS or not, should feel free to correct me on any points on which I'm mistaken. Although the afterlife is something frequently discussed in LDS doctrine, it's not something that's easily explained or understood.
Posts: 2926 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Fusiachi: So there's a God, and he's cruel (in this one instance). Working within the Christian paradigm, he's also responsible for our existence, and access to eternal paradise. So he's not perfect (and "perfection" is a tricky concept). In the meantime, why bother being bummed out about it? I mean, you've got eternal paradise in front of you.
Then I would have to live my life constantly aware that a supernatural being was watching my every move. I don't think I could enjoy that. Btw, I'm going by what I believe to be a strict interpretation of the Bible where not believing in God is enough to not get into heaven. Maybe thats not in the Bible. If it isn't then please tell me. Regardless, if thats not what you believe then we are probably talking past each other.
quote:Originally posted by Fusiachi: Optimism might be naive, but pessimism isn't much of a way to live, if you ask me.
Nope it definitely isn't. I don't believe in God anyways so this whole discussion is theoretical for me.
quote:Originally posted by kmboots: Why are we so sure that God condemns us? I believe that we can only condemn ourselves.
I'm probably taking you too literally but isn't that analogous to the claim that my English teacher likes to make where she says that she doesn't determine grades but we earn them? I'm not convinced that that flip in perspective is valid. It seems to me that a government could use a similar change in perspective to claim that the state does not decide punishments but rather that criminals earn their punishments. This seems to rest on the fact that the criminal's punishment is just. An extreme example would be if someone were sentenced to life for smoking pot. In my mind, they hardly "earned" that punishment even if it was a law and they were aware of it. In a similar way, I don't think anybody can condemn themselves to eternal torture because eternal torture is never just (in my opinion of course).
quote:Originally posted by kmboots: And why do we think that wherever we are at the moment we die is where we stay forever. If there is eternal life, why can't we change our minds?
Is that stated in the Bible? Now that I think about I do seem to vaguely remember the idea that every soul, including those of people who have died, gets "reevaluated" during the Rapture (maybe during a class discussion on Dante's Inferno?). Anyways, I am honestly ignorant in that area so if you could direct me to the chapter I would have to read I would greatly appreciate it.
EDIT: Chapter/book of the Bible for the last sentence
Posts: 1327 | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by The Pixiest: It would certainly go a long way toward disproving the existence of an all powerful god who loves us like his own children.
It would also contradict the parable of the prodigal son.
If Hell doesn't exist, it seems to contradict the parables of the wheat and the tares, the sheep and the goats, Lazarus and the beggar, and others. Furthermore, I don't see why the existence of Hell would contradict the parable of the prodigal son. But I guess it comes more from the somewhat unique LDS perspective that God is unable to save us in our sins (a hat tip to the "all-powerful God" clause in your original statement). I believe that God must abide by eternal laws, one of which is that "heaven" is only heaven inasmuch as it consists of people who choose to live heavenly principles. To admit those who aren't willing to abide by those principles would destroy the whole thing.
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Threads, that isn't what I meant at all. God always desires to be with us; we can decide no to be with God.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Fusiachi: Supposing there isn't an all powerful god who loves us like his own children, does that give us reason to despair? I mean, the atheists and agnostics don't get too worked up about it.
The problem is not with God, it is with a God that would be cruel enough to damn people to eternal torture. A God that did that would be much worse than Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. No amount of evil that someone could do in a finite amount of time ever justifies eternal torture.
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Not including LDS doctrine (I'm pretty ignorant on that), most Bible Scholars say that there are 4 places in the afterlife.
The Good: Paradise, or Abraham's Bosom
The Bad: The Rest
The Ugly: Hell
And the Best: Heaven
Up until Christ came and died on the cross, Christian philosophers agree that only two of these had any vacancy. Paradise, and The Rest. The three days while he was dead, he spent in Heaven preparing a place for them. From then on, those who believed and followed God would not go to Paradise, but rather Heaven.
Then, when Christ comes a second time, The gates to Hell are opened and those who were in The Rest are transfered to Hell.
This may not be correct, I'll have to check on it, but It rings true, and I thought it might be helpful. However when it's all said and done
quote:They describe the state of our relationship with the Divine.
...is probably as true as you get.
It's not that there is torture, per se`, but rather that being separated from the one true God is torture enough in itself.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Oct 2007
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If hell does not exist and we all get to heaven, then why should we live by any particular spiritual, moral, or civil laws? What would be our incentive?
God is love and is also just. God does not want to damn us- but He is bound by His own just nature. "For the wages of sin is death" - we sin therefore we must die. Or something must die. In OT Hebrew customs it was the sacrifice of animals; in NT Christianity we allow the sacrifice of Christ to be used as the sacrifice for us. Those who do not accept that sacrifice must make that sacrifice themselves.
And must experience the second death. It may not be cheerful- but it does provide structure and meaning to the manner in which we live our lives. Which is infinitely more hopeful for me than not believing in any divine meaning at all.
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"In OT Hebrew customs it was the sacrifice of animals; in NT Christianity we allow the sacrifice of Christ to be used as the sacrifice for us. Those who do not accept that sacrifice must make that sacrifice themselves."
Why must there be a sacrifice in the first place? A god with infinite power, but who demands sacrifice from one to fix a sin which was in no way his fault in the first place... that's justice? Please.
"And must experience the second death. It may not be cheerful- but it does provide structure and meaning to the manner in which we live our lives. Which is infinitely more hopeful for me than not believing in any divine meaning at all. "
Yes. Default infinite torture for merely existing, something that was certainly not my choice in the first place, is so much more hopeful than life and then, in the end, death.
Infinite punishment as justice for even the smallest of offences, in fact, as justice for our very human nature, something not in our control, which God has thus decreed sin. Infinite punishment.
Forever.
Perhaps God should learn something from the Bill of Rights.
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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Eternal punishment for the crime of being human. Hopeful. Sure.
But, there's a way out! Just believe (without any physical evidence) that Christ (who you cannot even prove existed, certainly not that he did what was claimed he did) and you can be freed from the crime of humanity.
Do not? Eternal punishment, again, for the crime of being human, something I had no more choice over than a cat had a choice in being a cat.
Now, I do what I can, I try to be as kind, loving a person as possible. I give to the poor as I can, and though I am surely imperfect, I act to do what I believe is right. Even so, God will cast me into the fire should I not believe.
Believing, mind you, on the same evidence the false gods give. None. And, for believing in these false gods? Same punishment, if you read the Bible.
Well, if he gives no evidence, how can I know that this IS the right god? One cannot tell the difference, when it comes to evidence. So, in the interest of not believing in false gods, I dont' believe without evidence. Still, for this, I'll still be punished.
Oh, and if I wish to end my life, to keep from committing more sins? Well, that's a sin that sends you STRAIGHT to Hell! There's no escape. Nothing a human can do can stop eternal damnation from coming, if your religion is true.*
Why? I had no choice in being human. If I had been given the offer "live on Earth, live, and then when you die, burn in Hell for all eternity unless you'e lucky enough to be born into Christianity or experience it in your life and be able to discern that it's the true religion, even if it has no more evidence than any others" or "don't exist at all" you can bet your bottom dollar I'd choose the latter.
Why didn't I get the choice? And why am I forced to pick the true god without evidence? What are the odds I find the right one, since all religions claim the same kidns of miracles, the same feelings, the same sorts of evidences?
Each claims to have the true way.
What chance do I have, if the choice is no better than random luck, the circumstances in which I was born, which is again something I had no choice over?
What kind of god would create such a system, and what kind of man would call it "just", "hopeful", or anything else but mad?
Is it impertinate to ask why God, if he "doesn't want to do it" does it anyway?
Nothing's stopping Him. He's all powerful, after all. If your god wants to do something, all he has to do is say the word.
He did when creating us, when creating heaven, and, also, when creating the hell in which he consigns us from birth. All it takes is a word.
Why did he have to use blood? And why did he have to undo it, if he did, in such an asininely unjust manner?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Shawshank: If hell does not exist and we all get to heaven, then why should we live by any particular spiritual, moral, or civil laws? What would be our incentive?
Virtue is it's own reward. Marcus Aurelius succinctly sums up why you should be virtuous whether or not god(s) exist.
quote: "Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones." ~ Marcus Aurelius
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"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.""
Another reason I like this guy.
Why can't we have a philosopher for a president?
Posts: 1577 | Registered: Sep 2005
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The prodigal son didn't just show up back at home. He was living with the pigs and thought "the least servant in my father's house is better off than me" and decided to go back and apply as a servant. Not everyone would do that.
The sheep and the goats says many things. One thing it talks about, which all three of the Matthew 25 parables talk about, is whether we truly know God or only think we do, and whether we have allowed him to really know us. All those who are denied the kingdom thought they knew God, and thought they knew how to behave. It's really quite worrying.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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0Megabyte- I really don't appreciate your sarcasm. It's not exactly polite. I wasn't mocking you or anyone else, nor do I think that anything I said is worth mocking.
And you specifically brought up the idea of suicide- that's a difficult one but yes I do believe that those who kill themselves will not gain entry into heaven. Why? It's the ultimate act of pride really.
It is a way of saying that they have no hope and they want life to end. So they end it. That's like telling God- 'you idiot why did you make me. I'm going murder some of your creation'
The 10 Commandments says "Do not murder" it does not say "Do not murder [other people]" Why should God care if you kill yourself any different if you killed another person. Either way you are killing a significant part of God's creation.
And the idea of one killing themselves to stop committing sin is laughable. As one who has lived with suicidals almost since birth and who was himself for a number of years and who has studied some of the Psychology of Suicide- it just doesn't happen.
quote:Course... whose fault is it that we sin in the first place?
It certainly isn't God's fault that we sin. God, being sinless cannot even tempt us. Let alone cause us to sin- but he does respect the free will He gave us- and therefore allows us to break from His will if we so desire to. It's not about a list of things you can and can't do. A sin is a violation of the known will of God. God can't cause us to do that.
Why must death come? My own personal belief is this: God is infinite in time- He was uncreated and is eternal. He is also infinitely good- cannot be tempted nor does He tempt. And when we sin- we are destroying our relationship with God. And all sin being a violation of the known will of God, then all sin is objectively equal. They all do the same amount of damage to our relationship with God. And therefore since God is infinite- and sin is a rejection of God. Therefore sin can be IMO a rejection of the infinite. And when we want to come back to God's good graces something has to take the brokenness of our relationship onto itself.
quote: Why didn't I get the choice? And why am I forced to pick the true god without evidence? What are the odds I find the right one, since all religions claim the same kidns of miracles, the same feelings, the same sorts of evidences?
Maybe the answer isn't found in miracles, feelings or any sort of empirical evidence. --------------------------------- The reason why I find it hopeful is simply to provide meaning for what we do. I personally believe even when I wasn't a Christian in objective causality. That there is a definite meaning to everything- even if it's in my grasp but it does actually exist.
Am I mad? Probably- but not regarding this I wouldn't think.
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SS: 0Meg did not insult you. He was simply stating his case.
Suicide is NOT pride. Suicide is dispair. I'm sure some have killed themselves out of anger at god, but atheists have killed themselves too. God didn't enter into it.
KMB: Have I ever told you how much I love the way you see God?
0Meg: I think you and I went through very similar thought processes in our loss of faith. Including the whole Sacrifice thing. It never made since to me, even as a child. Why would an all powerful god insist on a sacrifice? Why would he have to sacrifice his son? Why couldn't he just change the rules instead?
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