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After the success of my web game based on the First Punic War, I'm going on to a more ambitious scheme for simulating the Great War. One feature I want is a fairly fine-grained peace-negotiation system; it'll work as follows. Nation may make demands of their opponents; nations may also indicate their acceptance of enemy demands. If a situation arises where all demands of one side or the other are accepted, peace is signed. Nations get victory points according to how many demands they are able to enforce. However, each demand also has a chance of causing a revanchist revolution in the victim country; such revolutions are negative victory points for everyone. There is also a chance of revolution occurring during the war, Russian style, in which case all demands are automatically accepted.
Now, I want to set this up so that if the historical Versailles treaties are signed, and the historical revolutions (Russia, Germany, Italy, Turkey) occur, then all nations lose - there is no winner of the game. And I'm well along with that. However, the Western victory was by no means inevitable, and even if they do win, the actual demands they made could well have been different. So I'd like to hear Hatrack's ideas for possible treaty demands. Any of the seven majors can make a demand or be a target. Ahistorical, plausible, implausible; reshape the interwar world! In fact, if you do well enough, it may come to be called the postwar world. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Considering how ridiculous the Treaty of Versaille was, and how stupid the Western powers were in enforcing it, I don't know how radical or implausible you could possibly be. If anything the end of the first World War proves how destructive a poorly concieved treaty can be, and how useless they are if you aren't vigilant in their enforcement.
I'll give this a bit of thought and post again later.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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To give you an idea, here's the way I'm dividing up the provisions touching on Germany in the Versailles settlement:
Germany loses colonies Germany hands over fleet Alsace-Lorraine returned Saar occupied German reparations German army limitations German fleet limitations German war guilt Free Poland German Republic
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I'm trying to figure out what each country would really have to give.
Britain had extensive overseas colonies, but giving up their fleet would be a deal breaker, same with their air force. Other than that, they were nearly bankrupt at the end of the war. I'd guess a demand on the British would be some sort of handing over of South Africa or India, pay an indemnity, reduce the size of their air force and navy (not an elimination), weight restrictions on further warships built (tonnage), and probably some sort of taxation on British trade throughout the world.
By the seven major powers, who are you including? Italy, France, Britain, Russia, Germany, Turkey and Austro-Hungary? Not including the US? I would say that's odd, not because people should make demands on the US, that'd be almost silly since enforcement would be impossible, unless you force the US to pay up or else the Euro allies suffer, which makes for an interesting power play. But the US was a power player in the negotiations, even if Britain and France led the way (which may have been a mistake).
I actually just got a book that does a detailed analysis, with documents, of the Versailles treaty and the negotiations. I haven't read it yet, but if you're not in a huge hurry for ideas, I could get back to you in a week with more ideas.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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There was a treaty that prevented the unalienation of Austria that was later upheld in preventing a customs union between Germany and Austria. You could amend that so the economic union was allowed by the treaty, because (although I know nothing further about it) it could have been instrumental in preventing the complete German economic devastation.
But that may be a bit complex for your purposes.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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The seven powers are Britain, Germany, France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Italy, and Turkey. I'm not including the US because any sort of realistic modelling of its internal politics would prevent it joining the war until 1916 at the absolute earliest, so a human player of the US would be spending a lot of time just sitting about doing nothing. I will model it as a large neutral state instead, which can be traded with and influenced towards joining the war; if it does join the war, it will essentially be an additional source of troops for the UK, like Portugal but on a larger scale. Conceivably, though, I could make it a source of additional dynamics in the internal UK politics. My intention is that the public will have its say in the peace terms; you can't just add and remove terms willy-nilly, you have to pay for them. So the US could make it more difficult for the UK to ask for or not ask for certain terms.
I don't know if giving up the air force is a deal breaker in 1918; it wasn't for Germany. Similarly, the fleet is as important to Britain as the army for Germany, but Versailles limited the Wehrmacht to 100k in spite of that. Though admittedly it's more difficult to enforce a peace deal on Britain short of first sinking the fleet.
Allowing a union between Germany and Austria could be good is fine as far as complexity goes, I just need to model it as some victory points and a revolt risk; but who is going to demand it? If the Central Powers win they have no need for such a clause; if the Entente wins it's the last thing they want.
Incidentally, it is not necessary to assume that Italy joins the Entente as it did historically.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
That's a good point, I think I was thinking a bit too much of WWII in terms of Britain's Air Force. It wouldn't be a deal breaker at the end of WWI. Also a good point about the navy. If Britain were invaded, it'd mean the navy was already destroyed, and at that point Britain would have to accept whatever limits Germany dictated, but Britain is special in that regard.
I'm really better suited to help you on WWII, I know a lot more about it, but like I said, I have a couple books I was just planning on reading, and I'll get back to you.
Probably a good call, for the purposes of the game, on the US btw.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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