posted
First of all, I played trombone, tuba, and percussion in school. I played the drum set at church for a few years after school. I was never great but I loved band. Also, the band program in our school district is VERY competitive. Last year, there were 65 kids in the sixth grade beginning TRUMPET!!! There were only 66 kids in my entire band my senior year.
My fifth grade daughter would like to play percussion. If trumpet has so many kids, I can only imagine how competitive percussion will be.
My question is: should I get a practice pad, beginner band book, and some sticks and try to start teaching her myself?
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Back when I was in fifth grade (ummmm.. 1971) they wouldn't allow anyone to take "percussion" the first year of band (because everyone wanted to). You had to take one year of something else, and then in 6th grade you might get "chosen" to move to percussion.
Oh, but back then, of course, I was also told "girls don't play drums."
I would say teach her yourself. Hey, even if she doesn't get to do percussion in school, what is wrong with her learning a little on her own? If nothing else, it would improve her rhythm in all areas for all other instruments.
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Great point. The same rule applied when I was in 6th grade (1987), but I think things are quite a bit different now.
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Have you checked to see if it actually is competitive at your local middle school (or junior high, or whatever)? I know that when I was in sixth grade we only had about 6-12 people on every instrument, and maybe 10 or so percussionists. (The number went down every year, too.)
Oh, and that same rule applies in certain areas. My cousin has to take the trombone for a year before he's allowed to play percussion. (Although I wish he'd stick with trombone, heh. Yes, that's my instrument.)
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Just from talking with my neighbors, it is very competitive. Their son played the piano and drums and took lessons for years. He did not make the percussion class. That's why he was in the 65 kid sixth grade trumpet class.
Choir is probably going to be her thing, but I have been looking to get another set of drums anyway so I would be glad to teach my kids how to play.
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I find the Jim Chapin drumset videos to be excellent, excellent teaching material for all drumming, both drumset and regular snare/etc. His technique is beautiful and flawless. She needs good examples of beautiful technique to model herself on, and Jim is a good example of such. She can translate that technique to mallet instruments once she develops it on the drums. Ask me if you have further questions, I got my degree in percussion performance.
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So I just got a replyback from the sixth grade percussion teacher. Here was his response:
quote: Mr. Lyons,
You are correct it is very competitive to get into the class. There are usually about 60 to 80 audition-ers and we only have the capacity for about 10 - 15. I wish everyone could do it, but then we wouldn't have a band.
The best advise I can give is have him start taking piano lessons as soon as possible , not drum lessons. Piano lessons will help get him started with the kinesthetics involved in percussion and my testing procedure. I don't test kids on musical experience, but on beat competency and limb independence.....all taught in piano. Plus, if he doesn't make the percussion class, it will help him in another instrument as well. Nine times out of ten, drum lessons do nothing but confuse the student because they are usually taught incorrectly, or in a completely different style, and only once a week for a half hour. This can confuse a kid or give them false hopes. Moreover, it is much easier (and I have had more success) teaching kids that have a "blank-slate" when it comes to playing drums.
Thanks for getting the heads up. If you need the name of a piano teacher let me know.
Like I said before, I think she will be better at choir and I can always teach her here. Not that she won't be able to try out.
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Geez. Our HS band would have loved to have more members. There was auditioning for chairs within the sections, but we would have welcomed anyone willing to take up an instrument.
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That was the same with ours. They march about 300 during half-time. I guess they don't have trouble getting that 300. They say the band is the thing to be in here.
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Here is the website for the band. There is a picture of the full band on the field on the landing screen.
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The highschool I went to had just under 1000 people from grades 9-12. Our band went from under fifty people my freshman year to almost 200 my senior year, and it just keeps growing. They brought in a new band director and he's made it fun again.
brojack, that's a really nice looking band. As for teaching her to play the drums on her own, why not? It'll be good for her to learn something like that, and maybe she'll end up deciding on wanting to play something else, maybe something that there isn't quite as much competition for.
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We marched in the 120's or so usually, our of a school of 900, but over half the school was involved in music programs, so, despite having a small school (compared to some, my cousin's school in Texas had a senior CLASS of 900), we had 3 bands, 5 choirs, and 3 orchestras, plus a huge drama department.
In elementary school everyone had to take violin in fourth grade, and I mean EVERYONE had to take it, then in fifth grade you got to pick whatever instrument you wanted (well within reason, everyone who picked sax had to play alto until junior high, that's when I switched to tenor). Clarinet was most popular. Generally we had one girl or so on percussion every year, a good friend of mine did it for awhile, though she never marched the snare, she was in the pit or color guard.
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Me too and it's been 15 years for me. I have wanted to play in a local pipe and drum band. I would really have to practice up to get good enough for them. But teaching my daughter may help me do that.
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Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this. Most people have given good information.
Every band director will be different, but it is a fairly common practice to select percussionists by audition after playing for a little while. The reasons are varied (including that *everyone* wants to play drums), but mine in particular is that so much of beginning band is about creating a beautiful *sustained* tone. Percussion is largely about creating a non-sustained tone, and the technique involved in getting a characteristic sound is less involved and easier to teach than it is for wind instruments. Percussionists would spend much of their time being bored during the times during class when the instructor is working on tone quality. In my class, this is a considerable portion of the time.
Additionally, when these wind students eventually *do* change to percussion, they will already know how to read notes and rhythms. They also have an appreciation for some of the challenges that wind players face.
Finally, I can make an informed decision on one of the most important aspects of being a true percussionists (as opposed to just a drummer or even a 'dumber'), that is: responsibility and self-direction. Percussionists have to be responsible for more than one instrument's care. They have to plan ahead and know which instruments to get ready at the start of class. They are also the furthest distance from the director, and therefore the most likely to misbehave. Thus, I know that I need to pick students who have demonstrated good practice habits, clear thinking and awareness of consequences (both good and bad) of behavior, and a respect for the rehearsal process.
As for your specific question, Brojack, I would encourage you to contact the director at the school and ask him what his procedure is. But I also want to arm you with information from my own perspective.
First, I'm always leery about parents teaching their kids from the get-go. They may be great players, but I have had students learn *very* poor technique from their parents. I prefer that they get instructed by a professional music teacher, not just "some guy in the neighborhood who plays drums". (No offense is intended in any way to you, Brojack.) On the other hand, once a child gets started playing, I encourage parents to take an active part in monitoring practice in order to teach good practice habits (careful listening, monitoring of posture/playing position). I ask my beginning band parents to use a book called "Home Helper" from GIA Music Publications. These books have excellent photos of mouth formation (embouchure), posture, grip, and is accompanied by a CD that has example sounds of professional players for the students to emulate. Thus armed, parents have the tools to assist in the crucial early days of playing - but it's only a partial substitute to lessons from an experienced music teacher.
A question for you: does your daughter want to play percussion, or does she want to play drumset? This is an important question, as you are probably aware, being a former scholastic percussionist. It isn't just about set and snare, it's also about timpani, xylophone, marimba, chimes, crash cymbal, suspended cymbal, crotales, claves, maracas, gong, whip, timbales, castanets, guirro, congas, mark tree, bongos, and countless other instruments.
Also, does your daughter have the temperament to often wait quietly and patiently for 'her turn to play?' As you know, percussionists often rest for almost an entire song, to only play one note on the triangle, and if they miss it, they earn the fiery wrath of the director who bellows, "CAN'T YOU EVEN PLAY *ONE* NOTE RIGHT?!" (after sighing in exasperation while removing his glasses and wipes his forehead).
Another idea (sorry, they are coming randomly)...
I'm also usually more interested in letting a kid play a 'unique' instrument (percussion, horn, tuba, oboe, bassoon, etc.) if they parents are willing and able to make the commitment and investment of private lessons. This is a personal bias of my own, and probably not fair to those families that don't have the cash flow to afford lessons, but I have also had kids overcome my biases by a demonstration of extremely hard work and dedication to music and band.
I'll post more later, if I get a chance. Right now, I have to go teach woodwinds.
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(and if a kid learns to play oboe or bassoon, they have a better chance at a scholarship to college if they keep that up all during the secondary school years. I found that out when my kids were in band. Colleges are dying to get people with experience on those instruments)
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brojack -- that's a pretty impressive website of information on that Owasso band. They are indeed huge (and most directors would LOVE to have a band that size).
To what do you attribute the success of the band program in your area, that they never lack for kids? How big is the school?
(my whole high school was the size of that band)
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quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: (No offense is intended in any way to you, Brojack.)
Just kidding.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: A question for you: does your daughter want to play percussion, or does she want to play drumset?
She wants to play the drum set, but I don't want her to be a dummer drummer. There will have to be some fundamentals before she is turned loose on the set I am getting.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: This is an important question, as you are probably aware, being a former scholastic percussionist. It isn't just about set and snare, it's also about timpani, xylophone, marimba, chimes, crash cymbal, suspended cymbal, crotales, claves, maracas, gong, whip, timbales, castanets, guirro, congas, mark tree, bongos, and countless other instruments.
I have talked before here about how my wife's aunt would teach the family kids music. She taught them everything from guitar, to keyboard, to percussion. The kids loved music lessons at Joyce's. She got cancer and died and the kids have not had music lessons since. Two of my daughters and one of my nephews want to play the drums and two more of my daughters want to play the guitar. I will not be able to teach the kids like Joyce did but I would like to try. The one thing she taught more than anything was music appreciation. I love music and I miss playing. I want to pass that along to my kids.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: Also, does your daughter have the temperament to often wait quietly and patiently for 'her turn to play?' As you know, percussionists often rest for almost an entire song, to only play one note on the triangle, and if they miss it, they earn the fiery wrath of the director who bellows, "CAN'T YOU EVEN PLAY *ONE* NOTE RIGHT?!"
Probably not.
quote:Originally posted by BandoCommando: (after sighing in exasperation while removing his glasses and wipes his forehead
Were you my band teacher?
Thanks everyone for the comments. I think I will teach her and my other kids (and nephews) what I can about music. I miss the music lessons that Joyce used to give the kids. I know they do too.
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The marching band represents about 1/3 of the high school. No joke. I don't know what made the band so big. When my high school played Owasso way back when, they had about the same size band as we did. The town was a cow town back then and now it is one of the fastest growing cities in the US. The school has definitely kept up. The city just passed a 34 million dollar bond issue for additions. This was after a 27 million dollar bond issue just a couple of years back. With the current and projected growth, the city can pass the bonds without an increase in taxes on existing businesses and citizens. The school is smart to ask for the amount that will fall under that and the people are quick to pass them.
It's a great community and great schools. I'm glad to live here.
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I wanted to play drums in Jr. High, but I'm glad that my parents wouldn't let me, because when I got into High School band, I was having a great time playing Trumpet, while most of the drummers were sitting on the ground because the song only needed 3 snares and a bass, but there were 20 drummers.
They also participated in drumline competitions during marching season, so in addition to the band class every day and our once a week 2-hour after school practice, the drummers had an additional hour after school every day.
Percussion in my HS seemed like it was both a huge commitment, and also boring most of the time.
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Farmgirl: your comments about the unique instruments are absolutely correct. However, the investment in lessons, rentals, reeds, etc. for those instruments doesn't always pay off with talent and commitment from students, so I always mention the scholarship thing as a *possibility* rather than a *sure thing*.
Brojack: a parent's support and positive encouragement for musical appreciation in their children is the single greatest factor in determining that child's success in music. What amazes me is the conversations I've had with parents who DIScourage their children from practicing, saying that they can't stand that racket!!! I would encourage your daughter to try out several instruments (often the middle school director will require this as part of their recruiting, but if not, go to the music store and enlist their help!) and figure out which one she a) gets the best sound on with the least effort, and b) which one she can honestly say she will commit to and love playing each and every day.
Kids often want to play drums or saxophone, but then they get to try a trombone or a trumpet or a flute and realize that they really are a natural at another instrument and choose to pursue that instead. I had one kid a couple years ago who started on cello in orchestra and was miserable. A year later he came to me and wanted to try something else. We stuck a trombone in his hand and he did ... okay... But when he saw a euphonium (a what?! some of you are saying) his eyes lit up and he held the thing cradled in his arms like a baby and was playing like a high schooler in a week. Hyperbole not included. The kid was a freakin monster on euphonium and just LOVED to practice. His folks bought him one the next summer and he practiced his instrument like most kids play Xbox. Choosing the right instrument can be key.
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As a former Band Teacher, my suggestion for something you could do now that would give her a leg up later, would be piano lessons. Percussionists who can't read music are just drummers, and are a dime a dozen. That laundry list of really fun stuff that Bando gave, all would need someone with the ability to read music, count, hear pitch and find her way arround a keyboard.
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Okay, I need someone to bounce this dilemma off of.
My son, who is seven, has been bugging me like crazy to get him piano lessons. He has not let up on me for a while now, constantly reminding me. He takes every opportunity at church to play the piano in the choir room.
For my part, I've done investigations and found out some names of piano teachers by word of mouth - I'm leaning toward one that a good friend has recommended. Her eight year old daughter is taking from this woman and she really thinks the teacher is good and the kid is encouraged and enjoys it.
I'm stumbling over the money. It's a lot, considering that it would be more than I pay for any of my other kids' activities, even the gymnast. The gymnast gets about 24 hours a month of coaching for less money that four hours a month of piano lessons will cost. Yes, I know it's one-on-one, but still it seems high.
So, people - where do I go from here? Do I try and set up a couple of lessons and see how he responds to it? How necessary is a piano - I don't own one, can he just practice on an electronic keyboard or is a piano a must? Is one hour per week the minimum, or could I get by with fewer lessons? I'm having a hard time to committing to something so expensive..should I just call the piano teacher and tell her what I'm mulling over and get her feedback?
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Someone in the area might offer piano lessons to a small group at once, for cheaper. Alternatively, you might be able to find someone willing to trade in-kind.
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quote:Originally posted by Artemisia Tridentata: As a former Band Teacher, my suggestion for something you could do now that would give her a leg up later, would be piano lessons. Percussionists who can't read music are just drummers, and are a dime a dozen. That laundry list of really fun stuff that Bando gave, all would need someone with the ability to read music, count, hear pitch and find her way arround a keyboard.
That is a great point. I can read music in the bass cleff but not treble. I will have to learn if I really want to play the guitar.
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re the piano teacher. With younger kids, shorter lessons more often, work better than longer lessons at a greater interval. I would look for a less expensive "specialize in beginners" teacher and have weekly lessons for 30 minutes. You might call a college in your area that might have a music student, with good technique, kid sense, and some pedegogy training who would be fine for a year or two. You're not looking for Van Cliborne now, just some basic skills. If she really blossoms, and wants more, then you look for the "Teacher with the Resume".
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Do American schools not have concert bands, or do they just have marching oompah bands? My High School had three or four concert bands, enabling anyone who wanted to be in the band to take the band class in the grade they were in.
Piano lessons are invaluable life experience/skill/useful for future musical endeavors. They will also help her with choir (she will be able to play her part on the piano in order to learn it, for example.)
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yes. Any lessons in piano at all are going to help him later in life with reading music, understanding tones, etc. etc. If you have opportunity to expose him to piano lessons now, and he is wanting to do it -- I say go for it - even if interest wanes out after a year or so. You can't 'take back' that knowledge he will learn, and it is invaluable.
About not having a piano -- you would be surprised at how many people have old pianos they want to unload. I have THREE pianos right now in my house (would love to give you one if you were closer). They are all freebies. One, the church was getting rid of (it was old upright); the other, a sister of mine couldn't keep when she moved to a new house. etc. Check your friends, neighbors, churches and craigslist. I'll bet someone there has a piano to unload. You might need to pay for a tune-up, but that's cheaper than buying a piano. If you have no room for a piano at home; perhaps he can practice at your church?
BandoCommando:
quote: But when he saw a euphonium (a what?! some of you are saying) his eyes lit up and he held the thing cradled in his arms like a baby and was playing like a high schooler in a week. Hyperbole not included. The kid was a freakin monster on euphonium and just LOVED to practice.
Ah - that's exactly how it was for me! I began on the flute, took two-three years of that, and was first chair, but I didn't really like it. I begged to switch to euphonium (we had both a baritone and euphonium instrument) and I fell in love; in love with the horn, in love with the sound. I practiced four hours the first night I brought it home. (and pretty much blew out my lip) I don't know if I've felt that much passion toward anything else since!
Teshi -- at least at my school - we had "marching band" in the fall semester (football season and all that) and the Concert Band or Orchestra was the spring semester. So we had both.
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quote:Originally posted by Teshi: Do American schools not have concert bands, or do they just have marching oompah bands? My High School had three or four concert bands, enabling anyone who wanted to be in the band to take the band class in the grade they were in.
Piano lessons are invaluable life experience/skill/useful for future musical endeavors. They will also help her with choir (she will be able to play her part on the piano in order to learn it, for example.)
Thave a multitude of concert/jazz bands. With that too, there are just so many kids who want to play in band. It's a great problem to have.
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posted
Things like Band tend to be very cyclical as well. I had a huge band in high school, well over 200 people....over 300 at times...but three years after I graduated there was only 85.
We had two bands, Varsity and Concert, which were broken up by grade level not skill level, and everyone in both bands were also in Marching Band.
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"We had two bands, Varsity and Concert, which were broken up by grade level not skill level, and everyone in both bands were also in Marching Band."
That's how my school did it, too. I think it's the most common method.
Speaking of piano teaching methods, I think it's better to tape the note names on the keys, have a chart showing the name of each note in front of you, and the music for some simple songs as well, and learn that way. That's how I'm teaching my daughter. The method pretty much goes on its own, and there's no issue of "forcing" her to practice. If she wants to learn a song, she's got the note names and the tape on the notes. All I have to do is sing it for her, or let her listen to a recording, and she's off and running. It's a much cheaper and lower-maintenance method than traditional piano-teaching.
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Farmgirl is right about the lesson length--30 minutes a week is plenty, especially for a seven-year-old. If he turns out to be a prodigy, then you can think about hour lessons. Or wait till he gets older.
I think, especially at his age, the skill level of the teacher is less important than whether or not your son feels a connection with him or her. That really helps kids learn, and also helps to motivate them to practice. (I'm sure that practice is something that would be enforced in your house, especially given the financial outlay of lessons...however, it your son is also trying to please/ impress a teacher he likes, that can really help.)
Farmgirl is also right about the availability of old uprights. They're everywhere, and people are trying to get rid of them. Things to consider, however:
1. You may also have to pay moving costs. This is sometimes why pianos are being given away. 2. A piano that has not been maintained for several years may need much more work than a simple tuning. If you have to pay for the piano, even to move it, it's probably worth getting a technician to look at it. At the very least, get a friend who knows something about pianos to look at it for you. 3. Make sure you know how much tuning costs in your area--depending on your house's humidity and your family's level of sensitivity to out-of-tune playing, you may need to tune relatively frequently. 4. If you get a crappy piano, you will have a crappy piano to unload in a few years, either because your son is a more serious piano player and needs a real instrument, or because he doesn't play anymore and it's gathering dust.
You might want to invest in a digital piano instead. If you do, it should have 88 weighted keys (weighted meaning they it feels like playing a real piano, and how fast/ slow/ hard/ soft you play affects the dynamics). Also, be sure that the digital piano is either already on a stand, or buy a stand and bench so that it will be at the height of a real piano.
Advantages to a digital piano are that it does things a real piano can't, you'll never need to tune it, and it holds its value fairly well, if you buy a good one. (My husband bought one 7 years ago for around $1100, then sold it for $800 through Craigslist.) Disadvantage is that it's NOT a piano, and if your son ends up getting serious about piano, he'll want a real one someday, and maybe before long.
Good luck!
(BTW, I know this stuff because my husband is a serious pianist & teaches piano. He does 30 minute lessons for most of his students, 45 minute for some who are a little older & more focused.)
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quote:Farmgirl is also right about the availability of old uprights. They're everywhere, and people are trying to get rid of them. Things to consider, however:
1. You may also have to pay moving costs. This is sometimes why pianos are being given away. 2. A piano that has not been maintained for several years may need much more work than a simple tuning. If you have to pay for the piano, even to move it, it's probably worth getting a technician to look at it. At the very least, get a friend who knows something about pianos to look at it for you.
I will second the "get a piano" motion. And, there are lots of serviceable ones out there. My best buy was $17 and a case of beer. It took six big guys (and another case of beer) to move it to my apartment The piano was old. I had it tuned 1 1/2 steps low. You would have to have perfect pitch to tell the difference and you couldn't use it to accompany another instrument. But it sounded fine. The action was also slow because of rust on the pivot pins. I sold the piano when I moved from Alabama,for $17. (Four years service for the price of a case of beer) The guy who bought it used it for lessons for his 5 kids. He moved it to California and then lost it in a Divorice settlement. So I guess it still had some value 30 years later. My son picked one up while he was in school. He had to put wheels on it. But, it works just fine until he can make his first fortune and can buy a Kawai.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I'm stumbling over the money. It's a lot, considering that it would be more than I pay for any of my other kids' activities, even the gymnast. The gymnast gets about 24 hours a month of coaching for less money that four hours a month of piano lessons will cost. Yes, I know it's one-on-one, but still it seems high.
I think you need to look around a bit more for a teacher. The length of the lessons and the price you describe seem more appropriate for an advanced student than a beginner.
Since your son is only 7, it might be acceptable for him to begin learning on an electronic keyboard until you find out if he's going to be serious and stick with it. The inexpensive/moderately priced electronic keyboards generally don't have weighted keys and don't have the full range of a piano. Once he gets beyond the basics, the action of the keys on this keyboards is sufficiently different from a real piano that he won't be able to learn proper technique.
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