So a quick synopsis, after serving in Afghanistan Steven Hewett came home to King, N.C. and being that he is an atheist and respects the constitution and more specifically in this the separation of church and state, he requested that the christian flag that flew atop the towns war memorial be taken down. The response he was given prompted him to threaten to sue, and then things got ugly. He has been threatened by large groups of people, told that he and any other non-christians should move out of town, rallied and protested even by a senator and a NC representative.
King, NC has since put in place a lottery system that allows citizens to "win" the right to choose what flag will be flown above the memorial for a week at a time. No one other than Steven has opted for anything but the christian flag, Steven leaves it empty. On one of these weeks when it was his choice to leave it bare the christian flag was not removed when it was required to be (by way of the law implemented to save the city a lawsuit and keep their single religion represented) he removed it himself. He is being investigated for this.
Also, below this paragraph is an amateur documentary a man started making when he learned that his community of King NC were publicly advising any non-christians to move. His first thought was to put his house for sale that day and move to a more accepting climate, but instead he went to a rally with his camera to see what the hubbub was really about. The shocking bigotry of the people protesting a single atheist for standing up for the constitution caused Scott Burdick to spend over a year of his free time doing interviews and editing his documentary. Yet another link.Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm not an atheist, and I usually try to stay away from religious discussions because I don't think it's my business what anyone else believes.
That being said, one of my favorite things written about atheism was by Penn Jillette of Penn & Teller fame for a segment on NPR.
Edit:
On an unrelated note, the This I Believe segment is actually very cool, and anyone can submit an essay. I even have one published on their site. Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
First and foremost I don't think this is an issue of religion or atheism, it is an issue of upholding the constitution and suppressing the rights of a law abiding citizen. The fact that he is an atheist in a christian majority community does not change the fact that people were openly threatening to lynch him en masse at protests, or that he is being investigated by the police in regards to how he disposed of a flag that is not the American flag. The fact that he is a veteran does not change the monument in question is a war memorial, the point is that a majority for any reason is oppressing anyone who does not follow them and are using the government of King NC to do so.
Sidenote, if you can find it Penn Jillette told a great story on Kevin Smiths podcast a while back about how his daughter ended up with the middle name Crimefighter (no, really) and how his wife now gets out of speeding tickets in Las Vegas. Penn is great.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah, I apologize, my response was more of a reaction to the word "atheism" in the thread's title than to the contents of your actual post. I could make some claim in response to it, but I'm not really familiar enough with the issue to feel like I'd have any right to state an opinion either way.
It seems like a complicated issue, and I lack the knowledge to feel like it would be responsible for me to make a statement either way.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
The involvement of atheism is a personal connection for me, just as it was when I learned that a muslim attacked an atheist and got away with it in Pennsylvania because the judge was a muslim who even berated the victim and called him stupid in court. Or atheists refused asylum by the U.N. when they are being imprisoned in Tunisia. A silent minority is much easier to suppress, and I see no point in being quiet.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's an American flag to which a little crossbar has been screwed about two-thirds of the way up the pole, often with a tiny plastic Jesus stapled to it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by rivka: Neither of your first two links answers the REAL question here (and if the third does, I don't know -- it's 2 hours long!)
posted
I was wondering the exact same thing, Rivka!
This sounds like (quite aside from an appalling though unsurprising violation of the First Amendment and civil rights) to be a nice heaping helping of small-town religious oppression (though thankfully not in a violent way) that is far from unheard of in the sectarian sense. I mean, hell, most folks here probably know where the 'wall' people talk about actually orginated.
It does highlight nicely how shallow the 'support our troops' theme often goes in our country, and how politicized it so often is. Everyone 'supports the troops' in ways in which it costs nothing or little to do, and when those troops exist only as troops, avatars of generous patriotism.
As for it not being an issue of religion and atheism, well, it seems to me that of course it is, but that's not why Americans ought to be concerned about it. We ought to be concerned about it because disputes over religion aren't supposed to be the sort of thing government takes a side in at all in this country, and permitting persecution along those lines by its citizens is something our government is supposed to discourage as well.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It's an American flag to which a little crossbar has been screwed about two-thirds of the way up the pole, often with a tiny plastic Jesus stapled to it.
This brings to mind only one important question which must take precedence over all of the moral questions in play in this thread.
Does the plastic Jesus glow in the dark?
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Rakeesh: As for it not being an issue of religion and atheism, well, it seems to me that of course it is, but that's not why Americans ought to be concerned about it. We ought to be concerned about it because disputes over religion aren't supposed to be the sort of thing government takes a side in at all in this country, and permitting persecution along those lines by its citizens is something our government is supposed to discourage as well.
quote:This brings to mind only one important question which must take precedence over all of the moral questions in play in this thread.
Does the plastic Jesus glow in the dark?
Of course he does, but it's a special kind of glowing. He has to be able to see what's going on with people even at night, so he needs to glow in the dark-but he needs to be unseen while he's seeing people, in case they're getting up to no good, so it's an INVISIBLE glow in the dark!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
But of course. That's the only logical glowing-in-the-dark of which a plastic Jesus would be capable.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
For all those who argue, "What is the harm in Prayer in School" what do you think happens in this school if Johnny says "I don't believe in Jesus so I am not going to Pray." I very much doubt it is, "That's OK Johnny, you just have a moment of silence to yourself. We'll respect that." No. Its much more likely, "You're not a Christian? Well, young man, you need to be saved. I'm keeping you after school until you get Baptized, and I'm not letting you get better grades than your good Christian peers."
I say this because a friend of mine did a work/study program for a Christian radio network. No requirements of faith were required, but he was told, quite frankly, that if he didn't "find Jesus" by the end of the term, they were not going to sign off on his work.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that particular scenario-a teacher explicitly and in front of others telling a student they're going to be punished until they convert-is extraordinarily unlikely, DM.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
When the government institutions start taking sides in favor of a particular religion you don't have to wait long for blatant inequity. Just ask any atheist in Tunisia for instance, well the ones who aren't in jail for being atheists anyway, they'll be the ones hiding the fact they are eating lunch on Ramadan from their co-workers lest they be fired and reported to the police.
I went to church when I was a teenager, I have never been a spiritual person but I assumed that was what people did and I followed suit despite having no religious upbringing. I went because everyone rants about America being a christian country, so I assumed I was inherently christian and learned more about that side of society and its off shoots. Now imagine going to school everyday and being peer pressured into christianity from the age of five, having society designate you to be religious instead of just your family or Sunday school. I think we have more than enough indoctrination already.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
quote:I think that particular scenario-a teacher explicitly and in front of others telling a student they're going to be punished until they convert-is extraordinarily unlikely, DM.
Directly and explicitly punished does seem unlikely. But constant less than subtle pressure and prejudice seems extremely likely. In a town like that, people have been raised to think of Christian as a synonym for good and non-Christian as a synonym for bad. I agree with DM that towns like this are perfect examples of why we need a true separation of church and state.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I went to church when I was a teenager, I have never been a spiritual person but I assumed that was what people did and I followed suit despite having no religious upbringing. I went because everyone rants about America being a christian country, so I assumed I was inherently christian and learned more about that side of society and its off shoots. Now imagine going to school everyday and being peer pressured into christianity from the age of five, having society designate you to be religious instead of just your family or Sunday school. I think we have more than enough indoctrination already.
I grew up in a very Conservative, "religious" community, and I didn't find that to be my experience at my school at least. But I suppose that could be a regional thing.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
quote:When the government institutions start taking sides in favor of a particular religion you don't have to wait long for blatant inequity. Just ask any atheist in Tunisia for instance, well the ones who aren't in jail for being atheists anyway, they'll be the ones hiding the fact they are eating lunch on Ramadan from their co-workers lest they be fired and reported to the police.
*shrug* It's not an exclusively atheist experience, or even anything close. In fact a big chunk of the reason we've got the First Amendment here is because the religious feared the iniquity of other religious people. I don't highlight this to score points or anything, but rather to make it clear that this isn't an atheist-only issue. This is a much broader issue that in this case deals with an atheist. You can't hardly go to a piece of the world where one sect isn't sticking it to another sect either in that piece, or somewhere nearby, unless there are a lot of really good laws prohibiting it-and even then it still happens.
quote:Directly and explicitly punished does seem unlikely. But constant less than subtle pressure and prejudice seems extremely likely. In a town like that, people have been raised to think of Christian as a synonym for good and non-Christian as a synonym for bad. I agree with DM that towns like this are perfect examples of why we need a true separation of church and state.
It would depend on what you meant by extremely likely. Extremely likely that it would happen in a 'town like that', or the town described in the OP? Or rather extremely likely that it'd happen anywhere? I live in a place that is, no exaggeration, within walking distance (like an hour or less, that is) of...five churches that I can think of off the top of my head, and I know there's JWs somewhere around here too. I was also in the BSA, an institution that often has close ties with religion. But despite my entire family being devoutly none-of-the-abovers as I was growing up, I never experienced any kind of pressure, and I would've noticed because it would've been pressure exerted against my beliefs (or disorganized lack of beliefs).
That's anecdotal experience of course, but my point is this: it's not a given that wherever you go, the entire community or even most of it will be involved in a steady campaign of societal pressure to conform along religious grounds. That's because, whether they like to admit it or not, most theists don't even go to church regularly. It's just the sort of thing we as a society suggest is normal and good-not belonging to a specific denomination, but rather that old saw about decency and morality coming from God.
There are absolutely places where it's quite different-where there's a membership requirement not just to go to church, but to be considered a decent human being worthy of respect. But insofar as y'all are suggesting that's widespread as in common for most places, I disagree.
But I do agree it happens too often-not in small part because in the places it does happen, it's tough getting the word out.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged |
quote: In fact a big chunk of the reason we've got the First Amendment here is because the religious feared the iniquity of other religious people. I don't highlight this to score points or anything, but rather to make it clear that this isn't an atheist-only issue. This is a much broader issue that in this case deals with an atheist. You can't hardly go to a piece of the world where one sect isn't sticking it to another sect either in that piece, or somewhere nearby, unless there are a lot of really good laws prohibiting it-and even then it still happens.
On that note, there's even a lot of hostility in the "Christian" church. Between different denominations. Between the "left" and the "right."
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think it's likely more common than you're giving it credit. Adults are generally better about it than children in most places. But even still, I used to work at a company in Dallas (so not a small town) where Christian language was regularly used in office meetings and one special time, we had a company prayer. Since the topic came up so much, I shared my own atheist views with a few co-workers I worked with closely. They let me know on more than one occasion that they were praying for me to let Jesus in. I adored those people, but I have to say the whole thing was wildly uncomfortable. Religion constantly being such a source of attention made my own lack of religoius views feel far more central to my life than I would say they are now when I work at a large, international company where I have no idea about the religion of most of my co-workers because it just doesn't come up.
But speaking of schools, I think kids are far, far worse. They know that it's their Christian duty to convert non-Christians and so they try, but they lack any degree of subtlety. Growing up I considered myself Christian so I think the pressure played on me differently, but the atmosphere Achilles describes sounds exactly right. We had a decent sized Asian population at my school and there were several Hindu and Buddhist students. Many of the Christian kids would very actively try to befriend so as to convert the non-Christian kids. If you were white and quiet about your disbelief, I imagine people would have just assumed you were Christian and not bugged you about it too much. But anything else, you'd be told repeatedly(kindly or unkindly, directly or subtlety) that you were going to burn forever unless you accepted Jesus. If there was school prayer or the teachers felt comfortably in joining in that atmosphere, I imagine it would have been hell for those kids.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Kinda Steve, Arizona is not a diverse state in regards to religion. While the majority of the state is not active in christianity and don't care about the dogma they do tend to react harshly to non-christians, almost as if believing in jesus is the default. For instance my high school would allow younger adult christians to walk around the school before first bell handing out tracts and generally bothering anyone and everyone who didn't run away from them, I held the record with my circle of friends as to who could make them leave faster. Two and half minutes, they were tenacious. My school had a strange schedule where twice a week students would be let out of class forty-five minutes early and left to drift about the campus, a particularly inept principle would allow christian bands to play in the middle of campus to the students being held hostage by the lack of school buses to take them more than twenty miles on the highway home.
I was the only one who seemed to be made uncomfortable by it. This was less than one year after I abandoned religion but years before I embraced reality.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I just don't get people. I would identify myself as Christian, but I've never felt the necessity to try to force my views on those who believe otherwise with the assumption they'd serve me the same courtesy. If you have a mind for converting the so-called "Godless," then I think being a good person in general without some ulterior motive and without broaching the subject of religion is probably the best way to start. If you set out with the intention to convert someone, then you've already failed.
Above all things, I believe in love, and I intend to share that with people regardless of what they believe. I've never understood why that's such a difficult concept for people. . .
Edit:
For what it's worth, I would also like to say that, for many, the phrase, "I'll keep you in my prayers," is meant more as a means to express caring and the fact that the person is thinking about you. In most cases, I don't think the phrase is meant with hostility or the desire to make anyone uncomfortable. It'd be similar to just saying, "I'll be thinking about you."
Though, that certainly depends on the context. If they expressly say something like, "I'm praying you'll find Jesus," then that's an entirely different story.
quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: I went to church when I was a teenager, I have never been a spiritual person but I assumed that was what people did and I followed suit despite having no religious upbringing. I went because everyone rants about America being a christian country, so I assumed I was inherently christian and learned more about that side of society and its off shoots. Now imagine going to school everyday and being peer pressured into christianity from the age of five, having society designate you to be religious instead of just your family or Sunday school. I think we have more than enough indoctrination already.
This is a good description of my experience. My daughters are also now going through the same thing. In this town people are defined by the church they attend, and my daughters are constantly being invited to various church sponsored events by their friends. I actually had to put my foot down and disallow them from going to certain churches after they came home and started asking questions like "Do you think the United States is more moral because we are a Christian nation?" and "if the Bible says gay people are wrong, doesn't that make it true?" My kids get flak from schoolmates over this and our refusal to attend church in general, but I'm not letting them indoctrinate my daughters.
Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I understand the motivation of the sentiment for prayers, and I can appreciate that it is usually meant as a sign of friendship. And yes, the comment amount praying "I'd let Jesus in" was stated. But I never shied away from the conversations and actively shared my viewpoint, so I had no hostility towards them doing the same.
I just think many church going Christians are so used to framing the world in to "us faithful few against the world" that they don't appreciate the reality that Christianity is typically considered the default in America. Even those who don't really care and are only vaguely religious would still tend to think of themselves as Christian. And for those who specifically don't consider themselves Christian, there is a great deal of unintended prejudice and indoctrination that they will have to deal with.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
I used to go against my employers express wishes and take the old doughnuts from my convenience store to a local church that would make the homeless and the junkies sit through their thing and give them all breakfast afterward. I hate waste, and seeing almost a full display of perfectly good food get dumped in the trash every single night was particularly bothersome, so I as an atheist would drive to the church and make sure that I was handing the garbage bag full of doughnuts to the kitchen staff rather than one of the attendees lest they walk off with the charity kept to themselves. It was while I was waiting when the homeless who were outside smoking would say a lot "bless you" and "you'll be in my prayers." These were the same men who would spit and curse at me for not selling beer after last call, and who would threaten me with physical violence when I asked them to leave when they were harassing customers in the parking lot. But here we were, I'm going out of my way to ensure that something that doesn't need to be wasted is not and they are there for a nap and some free food. When they would recite those lines to me it felt like they expected it to be recompense for what I was giving the church and in course them, the same grown men who would shout obscenities at me and tell me what they would do to me in prison. For me, that is my most vivid reference for what those things mean, that by saying this phrase I have given you something even though I don't mean it or believe in it.
Posts: 2302 | Registered: Aug 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm truly sorry that's been your experience, AH. There's a lot of hypocrisy and hate in this world, and it hurts my heart to hear such vivid stories of these injustices.
I'm generally dissatisfied with the state of "religion" or "Christianity" in this nation for reasons which can mostly be attributed to the inherent flaw of anything carried about by a human person.
Posts: 6026 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
You know, after I divorced myself from the rather extremist religious tradition in which I was raised as a teenager, and have drifted further and further away from my old family and community in the past few years, I've had this nice, warm sensation where I've mistaken the dwindling of experience with Christian fanaticism in my personal life as an indication that it, as a whole, is dwindling and people are becoming more calm and sane. Articles like this are like a bucket of cold water to the face.
As a theist (I'm not sure if I should call myself a Christian) and a veteran, I am completely opposed to flying a Christian flag over a war memorial. First, what the hell? What the .... does religion have to do with memorializing war? Is it a political statement? an endorsement? A comfort? Second, why a flag? A flag seems to be broadcasting Christianity, not as a personal religion, but as an entity, a state. Christendom. The other intrusions of religious symbols on government property I've seen at least had some sort of logic behind them (Ten Commandments outside a courthouse? Well, the Ten Commandments are laws, and the courts interpret law, sooo...), I can't think of any way that flying a Christian flag over a war memorial makes sense.
Posts: 2222 | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
