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Author Topic: Castro Resigns
Lyrhawn
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Details are still forthcoming, but it appears he has stepped down as president and Commander of the military

As I'm guessing his brother will take over, and not much will change, I wonder how much this really changes the situation. But perhaps it could be a small step that opens up a new dialogue?

It's impossible to say this early on.

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Tante Shvester
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Woo Hoo! It looks like out foreign policy with Cuba* is really panning out!'


*wait until Fidel Castro dies or steps down

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James Tiberius Kirk
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quote:
It's impossible to say this early on.
I think it's safe to say our Cuba policy* is about to become an election issue.

*See above.

--j_k

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DevilDreamt
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Ah, this makes me sad. I guess I can't really say if he was a good man or a bad man, but I respect him for his ability to dodge assassination attempts.

Now that he's resigned, what will the CIA do with its time?

I agree that it could ultimately help relations with the US. I didn't grow up during that era, and even when I look at the reasons we have for being upset with Cuba, it has always felt to me like we should be moving on now.

Sure, they seized some American property, sure they have some human rights issues, sure, they are communists, but I think things have been getting better, and I really don't see a reason for the trade embargo to continue.

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Lyrhawn
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I'm okay with ending the embargo. I'm more curious as to what Obama has to say than any of the others. I expect McCain will reaffirm our commitment to embargoing Cuba until the end of time, but Obama's previous pledges to meet with heads of state regardless of their status I would think makes him the most likely candidate to support a change in policy. He's someone who believes that engagement, not distance, changes nations. And I think history bears that out.
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Nighthawk
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Bah... According to everyone here in Miami, he's been dead for months.

And, believe me, they're experts around here! You should hear them!

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Icarus
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Wow, DevilDreamt. Just . . . wow.

Form all your political positions by gut feelings as opposed to actual facts, do you?

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The Rabbit
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This will undoubtedly have repercussion all through the Caribbean. It didn't make the morning paper here. I'm anxious to see how this is viewed by the TnT.
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Morbo
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Yes, the embargo has long since passed it's time to be effective.

I'm glad he's on his way out, I wonder how his brother will rule? I bet control slips from his fingers.

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Blayne Bradley
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Fidel Castro has been a close personal friend of Canadian Prime Ministers I hope that he is alright and that he can retire in peace and quiet.
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DevilDreamt
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Icarus: Is there another way?

But seriously, I am not the most informed person on the subject, by far. However, I am aware that many of the embargo acts have fancy names that promote them as basically measures to encourage democracy in Cuba. I do not believe they have done this.

I am aware of some of the incidents that led to the original embargo, such as the seizing of US property in Cuba and Cuba's close ties to the Soviet Union in the cold war. I do not know of any reason why the embargo should continue. In this regard, my gut tells me that the motivation is based mostly on spite instead of a practical foreign policy goal.

But then, I agree that "engagement, not distance, changes nations."

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The Pixiest
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Sanctions are finally working!

They just needed 45 years.

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Blayne Bradley
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For the record the embargo was never effective. It just meant that US citizens had to stay on the cruise boat while Canadians could leave the boat and hang out with all the half naked cuban girls.
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pooka
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I'm glad to see how much Canadians respect Cuba.
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aspectre
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Rum and Coca-Cola
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Mucus
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Just so we are clear
Blayne is a member of the set of Canadians
Blayne, however, is not representative of the set of Canadians

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Sterling
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If this means another election that's decided in Florida, I may have to shoot myself.
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Lyrhawn
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It's unlike that Raul will make any political changes. But there might be some room for economic reform, however small it might be.

There might be some room for change here, but, I don't think it's likely. Any change in the embargo will have to be tied to political change in Cuba, at least with a Republican in charge, I'm not sure how the Democrats would deal. But Raul is only a couple years younger than Fidel is. He's only got a few years in control himself before someone else takes over. The guy you'll need to look out for is who ends up in the next in line spot. I've heard a few different names bandied about on NPR, and most of them are described as reformers, in one way or another, so I think change is on the horizon, but we've still a few years to go.

I will say though that this would be as good a time as any for the US government to reopen a dialogue with Cuba. Just a dialogue, no promises. I'd like to think that the major candidates wouldn't make policy for 300+ million Americans based on the personal differences of a few million in Florida, but it's hard to say, especially in an election year.

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Ron Lambert
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As one who remembers the entire career of Castro, from the overthrow of Batista, the failure to have the promised elections, and onward through years of brutal oppression (ask the millions of Cuban exiles if he was a good or bad man, DevilDreamt--why do you think they left?), it is my view that he was something like Saddam Hussein, one of the world's notorious bullies.

It has also long been my perception that it was the personality of Fidel Castro alone which has held the government together. Certainly not communist ideology, which has been so widely discredited.

The government may be attempting to give the impression that Fidel is still around. But even Raul is not Fidel, and the distinction between Fidel being "resigned" (whatever that actually means) and being dead, probably is not that great.

I predict that the present government of Cuba will gradually unravel. It may not collapse tomorrow, but it will begin to unravel, and the unraveling will soon go faster and faster. I give it a year or less (maybe much less) before there is complete chaos in Cuba. Indeed it could become an issue in the U.S. presidential election.

G.W. Bush could be the president who oversees the endgame. If Cuba dissolves into chaos soon, U.S. Marines can be sent in to restore order, just like they did in Haiti. The U.S. still has the Guatanamo military base in Cuba. All they have to do is walk across the fence. And then, at some point, the U.S. can provide a massive boat exodus to allow as many Cuban exiles who want to, to return. This could all happen before the next president is sworn in.

[ February 19, 2008, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Ron Lambert ]

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Lyrhawn
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According to what I've read, Raul is just as, if not far more cruel than Fidel is. I don't see it unraveling nearly so quickly, if at all. He'll take over, and a successor will be named, and he'll be in charge for a few years. It's possible things will unravel after that, but, Raul isn't going to collapse.

I'm curious as to how you think a "massive boat exodus" won't cause a huge problem in Cuba. I see that adding to the chaos, not solving it.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Ron Lambert:
As one who remembers the entire career of Castro, from the overthrow of Batista, the failure to have the promised elections, and onward through years of brutal oppression (ask the millions of Cuban exiles if he was a good or bad man, DevilDreamt--why do you think they left?), it is my view that he was something like Saddam Hussein, one of the world's notorious bullies.

It has also long been my perception that it was the personality of Fidel Castro alone which has held the government together. Certainly not communist ideology, which has been so widely discredited.

The government may be attempting to give the impression that Fidel is still around. But even Raul is not Fidel, and the distinction between Fidel being "resigned" (whatever that actually means) and being dead, probably is not that great.

I predict that the present government of Cuba will gradually unravel. It may not collapse tomorrow, but it will begin to unravel, and the unraveling will soon go faster and faster. I give it a year or less (maybe much less) before there is complete chaos in Cuba. Indeed it could become an issue in the U.S. presidential election.

G.W. Bush could be the president who oversees the endgame. If Cuba dissolves into chaos soon, U.S. Marines can be sent in to restore order, just like they did in Haiti. The U.S. still has the Guatanamo military base in Cuba. All they have to do is walk across the fence. And then, at some point, the U.S. can provide a massive boat exodus to allow as many Cuban exiles who want to, to return. This could all happen before the next president is sworn in.

Why not we ask Elian?

Also sending in Marines is never a good idea they so many times more then not end up screwing the pooch, especially since in this case it would be tantamount to an act of war and be seen as an invasion of a sovereign nation.

Also the idea that Cuba is somehow a tinderbox ready to explode is hilarious considering how deeply set it is in speculation.

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Ron Lambert
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Did we own Haiti when we sent in the Marines? Did they fail or succeed in restoring order? Where do you get the idea that the U.S. military "so many times more than not end up screwing the pooch"? This is just the kind of complete falsehood and utter misrepresentation of the facts of history that leads me to question the sanity of political liberals, who are usually the people who say things like that.

And why did you quote my whole post--only two posts down from my original post? If you want to quote a specific passage you want to respond to, that's one thing. But quoting the whole post is kind of a waste of space.

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Blayne Bradley
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Oh I don't know.... Somalia ring a bell?
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally Posted by: Ron Lambert
And why did you quote my whole post--only two posts down from my original post? If you want to quote a specific passage you want to respond to, that's one thing. But quoting the whole post is kind of a waste of space.

Given the gibberish and insulting things you've been posting most recently Ron, I think you're the last person that gets to tell Blayne anything he says is a waste of space.

Blayne -

What happened in Somalia actually wasn't that big a mistake really. A lot of the soldiers still made it out, and this despite the fact that Mogadishu had been transformed into a citywide booby trap. The mistake was in pulling out of Somalia, it wasn't in what happened in Mogadishu. So if anything you're 180 degrees on the wrong side of that one, it was a case of us failing by leaving, not by being there in the first place. For some people America can never get anything right. When we intervene in chaotic nations, we're accused of meddling, but when we stay out of chaotic nations, we're accused of shirking our responsibilities. In the end we can only answer to ourselves.

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steven
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What about Fidel's brother Dennis?

(/stupid Seinfeld reference)

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Ron Lambert
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It was funny--both Leno and Letterman introduced someone on their shows last night they called their "brother Raul." I think they record their shows about the same time during the day, so this probably was not a case of plagiarism. Just a spontaneous manifestation of events in two separate studios being affected by a "stupidity attractor," in the language of quantum mechanics. [Smile]

I think it was Leno who got in the best line, something to this effect: "Things could actually get worse in Cuba, when Castro finally passes the torch on to his idiot son, Fidel W. Castro."

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Icarus
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DevilDreamt, my objection wasn't to your stance on the embargo, but to the idea that the US should stop caring what goes on in Cuba. The US created the Castro regime through its constant interference during the first half of the twentieth century. Castro was a brutal totalitarian dictator with one of the worst human rights records documented by such groups as Amnesty International, Reporters Without Borders, and Human Rights Watch. (Not merely "some human rights issues.") We can disagree about what he most effective way to deal with him may be, but I have a real problem with glamorizing him, or minimizing the reasons the US should be upset with him. It goes beyond seizing US property.

-o-

Lyrhawn, I too have long heard that Raul is more brutal than Fidel. The only upside is that he may be, while brutal, less ideologically "pure." He may want trade with the US enough to bend a bit. But he's as big an asshole, and not as intelligent of one.

-o-

The idea of a sizable number of Cuban Americans wanting to emigrate to Cuba after three generations have passed is ludicrous. And where would they live? On their previously stolen property? What of the people who live there now? There are some old Cubans with that pipe dream, but the number is vanishingly small.

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The Rabbit
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quote:
What happened in Somalia actually wasn't that big a mistake really.
One of my family members served on the ground in Somalia as a intelligence expert. He disagrees strongly with that assessment.
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The Rabbit
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Here in Trinidad I heard several people yesterday comment on the hypocrisy of Pres. Bush when he called for Cuba to release their political prisoners while the US continues to hold 10 times as many people prisoner without trial in Cuba (Gitmo).

It just goes to show how far respect for the US has fallen in the world. Until we as a US citizens are willing to clean our own house we shouldn't expect anyone in the world to listen to our calls for others to respect human rights.

[ February 20, 2008, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

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Icarus
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*nod* [Frown]

It really is important for us to be better, if we want to wear the white hats. I can't believe we seriously debate the merits of preemptive warfare and torture and extraordinary rendition and warrantless surveillance on our own citizens, just because they're expedient. "Winning" is worthless if we have to become more like what we oppose. It just becomes a question of team loyalties then.

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Icarus
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That being said, there are, as of August 9, 2007, 355 detainees in Gitmo, while there are 326 known political prisoners in Cuba--and these political prisoners are Cuban citizens, not enemy combatants. Your Trinidadian conversation partners are engaging in pretty wild hyperbole.
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The Rabbit
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According to Amnesty international, Cuba is detaining 58 people they (AI) classify as political prisoners. Where did you get the number 326?

In late 2006, the number of prisoners in Guantanamo was ~500, I hadn't realized that so many had been released during the past 18 months.

The factor of 10 was my paraphrasing of a sentiment expressed by my Trini colleagues, I don't think any of them actually used the number.

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Icarus
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I counted the prisoners on this list:

http://www.directorio.org/presos/prisoners_list.php

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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Lyrhawn, I too have long heard that Raul is more brutal than Fidel. The only upside is that he may be, while brutal, less ideologically "pure." He may want trade with the US enough to bend a bit. But he's as big an asshole, and not as intelligent of one.
I wonder if that'll be possible without major political concessions that Raul might be unwilling to make. I think it's very possible that he'd be open to some economic reform, like trade with the US, but I have to imagine that at least our current president isn't going to let that happen unless they make concessions of some sort.

quote:
One of my family members served on the ground in Somalia as a intelligence expert. He disagrees strongly with that assessment.
In what way, and referring to what? The incident in Mogadishu specifically? It's hard to disagree without specifics.
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Morbo
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638 Ways to Kill Castro. This film is supposed to be shown on TV Mar. 3, I don't know any details. Presumably on PBS. I haven't seen it, I may check it out. From the link:
quote:
The number in the title (638) is derived from a list compiled by a couple of former members of Castro’s security team (they are among the interviewees). They even go so far as to crunch the numbers by U.S. presidential administration. In case you’re curious, here’s the breakdown (aren’t you glad I take notes?): Eisenhower-38 attempts. Kennedy-42. Johnson-72. Nixon-184. Carter-64. Reagan-197 (Ding Ding! We have a winner!). Bush (the 1st)-16. Clinton-21. (We assume they haven’t had a chance to tally the latest Bush’s numbers, although Cannell slyly bookends his film with footage of Junior’s embarrassingly smug and condescending “Cuba libre!” proclamation.)

The film begins its timeline in 1959, the year that the CIA received the first official go-ahead to take Castro out. The initial schemes sound like they were hatched by Wile E. Coyote and his Acme Intelligence Agency. The plans ranged from relatively benign subversion (making his beard fall out, spraying a TV station with LSD while Castro was on air, a contingency to accuse Cuba of zapping John Glenn’s space capsule with “magnetic rays,” had Glenn not made it back to Earth) to more ominous (a poisoned diving suit, booby trapping shellfish in Castro’s favorite scuba diving spot with dynamite, and most famously, planting poisoned and/or exploding cigars into his humidor).


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Icarus
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I frankly don't believe it. If the CIA had wanted Castro dead that badly, he would have been dead. And taking seriously anything Castro's people say is just stupid.
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Blayne Bradley
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And since when is the CIA competent enough to pull off an assasination of a Head of State and an aroused totalitarian state? If they had Skorzny I would give them the benefit of the doubt but otherwise you give them far to much credit.
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C3PO the Dragon Slayer
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Cuba is a lot closer than Afghanistan. The CIA could conceivably pull off such an assassination, but there are a number of reasons they wouldn't do it. Sure, the CIA appears pretty stupid based on recent events, but their recent objectives have had little to do with assassinating leaders right next door to their beloved Guantanomo.
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Blayne Bradley
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To assasinate a head of state, fully protected at nearly all times is in no way easy task, their is a whole list of things the CIA has gotten wrong or screwed the pooch on multiple occasions since its founding, considering that in the actual recorded number of HoS there is probably not a single assasination attempt even remotely accredited to the CIA with the exception of JFK speaks to itself.
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Icarus
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um, yeah. It suggests that the CIA doesn't engage in assassinations of heads of state. Thank you for making my point.
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Blayne Bradley
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or maybe its because they can't it goes either way. Since it only takes the minimal amount of common sense to decide that sending an agent who you spent decades infiltrating in on a suicide mission is a bad idea.
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Morbo
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Some of the CIA's plots against Castro have extensive public documentation, especially ones from the 60s. Do I think there have been 638 plots? No way. I'd be surprised if there were hardly any after 1976.

638 is a bogus number derived from agents who wanted job security. What better job than protecting someone against imaginary plots?

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Ron Lambert
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Well, it is unlikely that Allende of Chile committed suicide by shooting himself in the head several times.

But the old joke is circulated too, where someone asks if the CIA were involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and the reply is "No--he's dead isn't he?"

I still wonder if George H.W. Bush were one of the men on "the grassy knoll."

But if the CIA were any good at assassinations, how come Osama bin Laden is still alive?

Sen. John McCain insists that if he is elected, he will "get bin-Laden." Maybe he plans to use the Marines to do it.

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Blayne Bradley
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on the grassy knoll was Mr Zapruder, the man who filmed possibly the only actual footage of the assassination. Joke about the assassination as you like but until I hear otherwise it is a statistical impossibility for Oswald to have killed JFK since A) he was no more then an above average shot with a rifle and B) there was a massive Oak tree blocking the way.
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Xavier
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quote:
While in the Marines, Oswald was trained in the use of the M1 Garand rifle. Following that training, he was tested in December of 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a sharpshooter.
-Wikipedia

It also took him three shots. The history channel did a simulation of the shot, and their shooter got him in one.

quote:
B) there was a massive Oak tree blocking the way.
Oak tree in the way? OMG! No one has thought of that before! Somehow the thousands of investigators missed the giant tree in the way! Alert the media!
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:
While in the Marines, Oswald was trained in the use of the M1 Garand rifle. Following that training, he was tested in December of 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a sharpshooter.
-Wikipedia

It also took him three shots. The history channel did a simulation of the shot, and their shooter got him in one.

quote:
B) there was a massive Oak tree blocking the way.
Oak tree in the way? OMG! No one has thought of that before! Somehow the thousands of investigators missed the giant tree in the way! Alert the media!

There was a Texas Oak tree in full bloom. I also would like to ask how a bullet is capable of a U turn in mid air.
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Xavier
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quote:
I also would like to ask how a bullet is capable of a U turn in mid air.
quote:
A Discovery Channel special "Unsolved History: JFK — Beyond the Magic Bullet", attempted to replicate, as well as possible, the conditions of that day. The participants set up blocks of ballistics gel with a substance similar to human bone inside. These studies showed that largely undeformed bullets were possible to produce, if they were slowed by a passage though a tissue-like substance before striking bone. Next, two mannequin figures made of ballistic anatomical substances (animal skin, gelatin, and interior bone-like cast) were set up in the exact relative position of JFK and Connally. A marksman, from a distance equal to that of the sixth floor of the Book Depository building, fired the same rifle model found in the Book Depository, using a round from the same batch of "Western Case Cartridge Company" 6.5x52 mm ammunition purchased with the surplus Carcano weapon in early 1963. The path of their single bullet (followed by high speed photography) duplicated, almost exactly, the wounds suffered by the victims that day, the only difference being that the bullet did not quite have enough energy to penetrate the "thigh" substance in front of the Connally figure, because it struck an extra bone in the "rib" model (i.e., it fractured 2 ribs in the model vs. one rib in Connally). It was also slightly more deformed than CE 399, possibly for the same reason. However, this bullet came close enough to duplicating all wounds in both men with a single shot, with a bullet having little deformation. Thus the theory was proven to be much more plausible than previously thought.
Also from Wikipedia. I saw that special, and it was the single most convincing piece of evidence that the JFK conspiracy theories are bunk. I'd encourage you to track it down Blayne.

quote:
In 1993 a computer animator named Dale Myers embarked on a 10-year project to completely render the events of November 22 in 3D computer animation. His results were shown as part of ABC's documentary The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy in 2003, and won an Emmy award.

To render his animation, Myers took photographs, home footage, blueprints and plans, and used them to create arguably the most accurate computer re-creation of events to that time. His work was assessed by Z-Axis who have been involved in producing computer generated animations of events, processes and concepts for major litigations in the United States and Europe.

Their assessment concluded that Myers' animation allowed the assassination sequence to be viewed "from any point of view with absolute geometric integrity" and that they "believe that the thoroughness and detail incorporated into his work is well beyond that required to present a fair and accurate depiction." [31]

Myers' animation found that the bullet wounds were consistent with JFK's and Governor Connally's positions at the time of shooting, and that by following the bullet's trajectory backwards could be found to have originated from a narrow cone including only a few windows of the sixth floor of the School Book Depository, one of which was the sniper's nest of boxes from which the rifle barrel had been seen protruding by witnesses.

More from Wikipedia.
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Morbo
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Yeah, the magic bullet has been thoroughly debunked.
Yes, Zapruder made a film. So what?

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Nighthawk
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My father was in Jose Marti Airport in Havana, Cuba, trying to fly back to Miami, the day that Kennedy was shot. Needless to say, not the best situation to be in.

quote:
I also would like to ask how a bullet is capable of a U turn in mid air.
Maybe if I repeat "...back, and to the left..." forty times out loud I'll figure it out.

Oh... wait...

Never mind.

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