So I'm not normally one to ask a web forum for help with social issues, but I have to say this one's got me stumped and it's driving me up the bloody wall. The people involved do not want to talk to me about it and so I really have no where to go, and no one to turn to to discuss it.
I have this thing with people, or at least with my friends, where if I can understand where they are coming from, if their behavior makes sense to me, then I can put up with anything. And not worry about it. If I feel I deserve what I'm getting, then I don't mind getting it. But I really don't feel like I deserve this, and I can't figure out exactly what is driving this person to treat me this way.
==== Short Version -- Little Detail ====
Okay, I wrote the long version first, I'll try to summarize here. I have a friend who has decided we are not friends and is now giving me the cold shoulder. The complete ignore me shutdown. She has me blocked on AIM, will not make eye contact, pretends I don't exist when we're in the same vicinity. I know her stated reason for why this is, but I don't think it anywhere near deserves this treatment, and I just need a sanity check.
The stated reason is thus: "We haven't spoken in four months."
The short history: I started a relationship with another girl, one that started out as very tenuous and roller coasty, and became a little scarce for a while. A while being two months. It was a gradual thing and by scarce I primarily mean that I missed the nightly dinners in the dinning hall my rather large friend group socializes with. I didn't miss them all, I went to one or two a week -- down from almost all. Again gradual thing. I only completely missed two weeks around finals time. I could have been found by phone, or pulling me aside with the occasional run in on campus, or by knocking on my door. This friend attempted none of these things. She never attempted to get a hold of me at all to let me know I was being missed that badly. I figured I could go a little scarce for a while till I'd settled down the relationship thing one way or the other, and got my work more under control. I never completely severed contact nor ignored. In fact to say we didn't talk in three months is a bald lie. We definitely saw each other at least once a week still, probably a little bit more. Save perhaps the last two weeks in December, Finals time.
The short summary: Winter break, I learn friend is angry at me. I'm touched, didn't know I meant that much to her (she never gave any indication that she cared that much about me). Asked how I could make things right with her, make it up to her. She said to give her time to get over her anger. I did. We came back in January, I asked her if we were okay -- if she'd had enough time, she said we weren't friends. She accused me of trying to reconnect with friends I'd cast off because my girlfriend was going abroad for the semester. My girlfriend was leaving February 18th. I did this as soon as we got back in January. She then stopped talking to me. I made a few more attempts to get her to talk to me and talk things out -- I thought there had to be something more going on here -- she ignored me and progressed to blocking me on AIM and avoiding or ignoring me else where. At that point I gave up, which is how we stand now. And have stood for nearly 3 weeks. Possibly a month. To say I'm frustrated is a fair understatement.
Do I deserve this treatment? Really? Is there something else going on here? Cause it just doesn't add up for me. Being angry at me for being a little too scarce, then asking for time when I ask how to make it up, then declaring we're not friends and ignoring me after I give time. I just don't get it. What'd I do?
If the short version still doesn't make sense, maybe there's a detail in the following long version that will make it make sense to you. It really doesn't make sense to me, even in long form:
==== Long, Long Version -- Lots of Detail ====
I have a friend (stunning yes?), year below me, female (I'm male, in case you didn't know). Last year round January I asked her out, she said no. It was kind of a messy no. She said no, acted like it was yes, weeks go by where she acted like it was yes (I.E. hanging out with me all the time, cuddling with me, etc) -- messy, I was very confused. Then she said no again and basically avoided me for a long time. Towards the end she pretty much stopped talking to me entirely. Then things got better towards late spring. Summer came, summer went. Come fall we're back to normal, perfectly friendly, not especially close, but good friends. The reason she said no is cause she was interested in another guy, a guy who went abroad last fall.
Alright, so that was back story possibly necessary to help make sense of what's going on in her head.
So here's what's happening now. Around October, I got a date. New girl, awesome girl, not quite perfect for me then, but perfect I think for what I want to be. Anyway, it was sorta tenuous at first, we were both a little out of our comfort zone, things moved very fast. It was more than a bit of a roller coaster.
Before that happened I could have been found in the Dinning Hall every night, at around the same time, when a very large group of my friends tended to eat. It was during this time -- and during Frisbee Practice -- that I was usually hang out with friend1 (as she will be called). Also for hang out time were spontaneous Buffy nights the planning for which usually occurred during these meals in the Dinning Hall.
When I started going out with girlfriend (as the aforementioned date will be called) I stopped going to the dinning hall so much, and as a result spontaneous Buffy nights dropped off as well. It was a gradual thing. As work stress piled up, and the ups and downs of the girlfriend situation became higher and lower respectively, I was around less and less. And the more stressed I got, the more tetchy I got when I was around. One of the primary forms of interaction with friend1 -- and that general friend group -- is bantering that involves making fun of each other. Well I've never been particularly good with that sorta banter nor particularly thick skinned. So I always tried to avoid it, but it was sorta hard with this group. The more stressed I got the more thin skinned I got, but I also made a habit of removing myself when I knew I was getting too thin-skinned, so I never snapped at anyone too badly.
Well by December I had become rather scarce. I could be reached by phone, but not really on AIM and due to the amount of work I had. By the last two weeks in December I disappeared entirely from the Dinning Hall dinners, still could be reached by phone and my of my friends reached me thus.
I should also mention that girlfriend is abroad this semester, she left February 18th. We're sorta in limbo now (I think). Anyway, so add to my stress the fact that my second girlfriend ever is doing the same thing as my first girlfriend ever: going away for a good long time. Remembering how well the distance thing failed last time, I was pretty stressed by this.
Okay, so winter break comes along, and I find out -- to my great surprise -- that friend1, her roommate and my best friend and next door neighbor were all angry with me for being so scarce. My first reaction was "you guys missed me enough to be angry at me for not being around? Awww, that's sweet... I'm sorry! Let me make it up to you!"
I didn't stop to think about the fact that none of them -- not one -- had made any effort what so ever to see more of me or track me down. No calls, no e-mails, no pulling me aside and asking how I was and can we hang out more, nothing. In fact, the times I actually saw best friend from next door was when I walked over there and knocked on her door. Which I did every time I walked by it and saw she was awake and home, and I didn't have somewhere to be in a hurry. At least once a week. So really, they had no right to be angry with me (did they?). Really with them I was always the one setting up things to do. They never seemed to invite me to do things with them, even before I'd disappeared. I could always be found at dinner, and that was when I usually made plans with people. My plans were: "Hey! Do people want to do something? Like Buffy or Sci-Fi?" They never came to me and were like: "Hey can we do something?"
So anyway December, they're angry, I'm all touched by them being angry and trying to make it up to them. The roommate and my best friend allow me to make it up to them pretty quickly -- or so it would seem. Friend1 does not. I talk to her about it, she says I should just give her some space for a while and she'll get over it. Okay, I can understand that, she's needed that before, no problem, man. Space I give. I break the space giving long enough to wish her a happy journey and instruct her not to get injured when she goes on a trip over winter break -- out of country. I do this over aim where it can be ignored.
Alright. Jump to January as we return to campus. Girlfriend has a good month and a half before she has to leave, so she comes up to campus to work. We hang out a whole bunch before then. When people return to campus I cautiously approach friend1, and she seems sorta wary (as in not quite sure how to act) of me but no longer in need of space. I fire her an IM later and chat with her. The chat is extremely stilted. She doesn't seem to need more space, as she is talking to me, but she doesn't seem to have forgiven me either. I ask her if we're okay or if she's still angry with me: "Honestly? We're not friends." Guh, what? "We haven't spoken in 4 months." WOAH! Wait, for one of those you asked me for space, I gave! "Okay, three months." At that point I was too flabbergasted to point out that we had spoken during those three months, and if she missed me so much, how come she hadn't come looking for me. She also accuses me of trying to rebuild old connections I'd cast off before, now that my girlfriend was leaving. She then hurriedly signs off and vanishes. This was a month before my girlfriend left, and I didn't get a chance to point out that I'd attempted to reconnect as soon as I'd heard the connections were being damaged by my not being at dinner so much.
Well I gave it a week or two, I was kinda shocked. I tried to say hi on AIM a couple of times, or greet her as we walked by each other. I got ignored. And then I did stupid thing number one (or possibly two or three -- though I think one): I left her a long IM telling her I wasn't willing to give up on friendship that easily, and basically threatening to continue to treat her in a friendly manner (IE: not ignore her, say hi). I say threatening cause I worded it as a joking threat. Since then she has blocked me on AIM, refuses to look me in the eye. She refuses recognize my presence when we happen to run into each other or are at the same friendly gathering. She is stalwartly pretending I do not exist.
Her poor roommate, who is also a fairly good friend of mine, feels caught in the middle, though, I think more loyal to friend1 as they are inseparable and I haven't been around.
I'm just confused, and at this point pretty pissed. I don't think I deserve this. This is the treatment I might expect were I cheating on her or something. Or did something to really hurt her. She never gave any indication that my not being at dinner or frisbee for a while could cause that much hurt to her. Any she never tried to prevent it by contacting me first to hang out or do something.
Do I deserve this? What could she possibly be thinking I have done to think she is justified in treating me like this? I never ignored her. When I ran into her I always stopped, said hi, asked how she was. I ran into her less and less, but come on! I only completely disappeared for about two weeks -- around finals time! Am I being a complete jerk in thinking that I do not deserve this treatment?
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I'm far too short on time and the requisite little details to even begin to know the specific phrasing that one would put into an attempt at reconciliation, but it would likely have to go into a single notification that says that you are sorry that things are like this and if in the future they wish to end the blockade, you're willing to let bygones be bygones, and if it never comes to that, then, goodbye.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Gotta be honest with you, Alcon, from what you describe, chickie sounds nuts. It doesn't sound to me like you did anything wrong. But then, hey, what do I know - I've also had people unexpectedly and without any known reason to me stop being my friend and refuse to tell me why. *shrug*
Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Yeah, sometimes, the root of the issue is just unavoidably that there's some of the crazy floating around. Whether she's nuts or not, or whether you deserve this or not, is pretty irrelevant as long as her decision is to cut off all contact with you.
Usually — though I am not certain that this is the case for you, just that this is what usually has to happen — the best option is not to pursue. You can give a final message, but assume beyond that point that it's counterproductive to pursue them.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Whether you deserve this or not is pretty much irrelevant. She wants to have no contact with you. She's made it clear and has rebuffed your approaches.
You're not being a jerk in thinking you don't deserve this treatment, but she's not being a jerk for deciding to end a friendship for whatever reason or for refusing to talk to you.
Friendships end. Sad fact of life. They end for what are likely stupid reasons. Sadder fact of life.
But her friendship is hers to withhold for any reason she wants. Thinking of it as a question of deserving it or not is missing the point.
Don't seek her out individually. Simply continue to go to dinners and Frisbee as you normally would. Interact with your mutual friends. Greet her if you wish in their presence. Don't bad mouth her, question her motives, her try to involve your mutual friends in the matter.
If she's rude to you in their presence, they'll figure out what's going on. Or she might get over being mad. Or she might hate you forever. That's out of your control, and dwelling on whether or not you "deserve this" will simply make you keep thinking about her reactions rather than what you can control.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I would guess she's mad at you for not pining over her when she didn't date you last year. Even if she's not interested, she could be jealous that you're not anymore. She could also be mad at herself for missing a great opportunity with you or mad that turning you down seemed to cost her your friendship. (Ignore that she was the one who needed space both times. Logic does not apply here.)
In a perfect world, she'd be mature enough to explain her reasoning to you, and the two of you could deal with the hurt feelings and be friends again. However, she is either too immature to do so, or she's that personality type that avoids conflict at all costs. I have a coworker who does this. She's irrationally angry with another coworker for something I'm pretty sure he thinks is a joke. When I spoke to him about an unrelated issue, he stopped the annoying behavior and we've been fine since then. There's no reason for her to turn this into a big thing, except that everything is a big thing. My coworker is a drama queen, and it's entirely possible your friend is, too.
If she is a drama queen, she'll show back up when it's convenient to her personal narrative. She will expect you to play a specific part, and if you don't, there will be more problems. From an emotional self-defense standpoint, I'd take Dag's advice. Hang out with your other friends, try not to get into the long explanations with them, and just move on. It's probably safer in the long run.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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I'm pretty sure that about sums it up, really. I've dealt with enough girls who act like this that it's almost always easiest to move on.
I've something pretty similar happen. The whole: I like girl, I ask girl out, girl says no, girl tries to be friends, I date someone else, Girl gets angry. Sometimes I think Maybe I did something wrong in there. But it's just not true. I don't think you've done anything wrong. Just take Samprimary's advice. Send her one more note/email saying that you've enjoyed being friends, and you're sorry it had to turn out like this.
Sometimes that fixes things. And if it doesn't..... well it may just be she's not worth all this trouble.
Good luck, either way.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
No, this is not a logical response to anything you did or didn't do. But, there's not much for you to do about it. I second the carefully-worded letter about "I'm sorry that this is the situation. From my side, here's what was going on at the time; here's what I tried to do; I hope if in the future you forgive me you will let me know so we can hang out again, as I miss having that time to hang out." And then leave it be. Because there's something deeper going on on HER side that you shouldn't be expected to understand, and if she doesn't come to that realization then you pursuing it any more is just going to come of as being jerky and possibly creepy.
Or, what everyone said already. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
It boggles my mind that YOU'RE apologizing to HER. You've got everything laid out in front of you and you haven't done ANYTHING wrong. I would call her out on being immature about it, tell her that a decent person would talk about whatever issue she has instead of closing off and playing the "give me more attention" game.
The real solution is that you need to be more confident in yourself--to be able to realize that you're not in the wrong, and if she wants to shut you out, IT'S HER LOSS. College life is way too much fun to waste it worrying about half-friends.
Posts: 1314 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Some very good thoughts here already -- poor Daniel. It sounds to me like someone is DESPERATELY trying to get your attention. I've encountered this sort of thing before, and it's usually someone who has more interest in you than you maybe originally realize, and in order to get your attention, they will mess with your emotions until your head a splode. In a way, it works... your attention has been focused on her, at least enough to write this in a Hatrack post. It is not positive attention, however, and until she realizes that, she probably won't leave you alone. You need to make her realize that this behavior is not acceptable, by either ignoring her completely or telling her to her face.
I hope this works out -- let us know what happens. Posts: 7877 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I think if he calls her out, then he *will* become the bad guy. Whether he actually did anything in his mind or not, it's possible he's inadvertently done something that she thinks he needs to apologize for. If her 'calls her out' on it, then he is becoming the aggressor, and may lose more friends than just the two(I think that's all you mentioned, right?)that he might now. If you say anything that could even remotely come off as being angry or upset, than she will turn it around and use it as 'proof' that you are the one who doesn't care about the relationship. This will get back to your larger group of friends, and may cause some form of alienation.
I understand not feeling like you've done anything wrong. I don't think you have, and it seems like the rest of hatrack seems to agree. Really the best thing you can do to try and save any relationship is to suck it up, and apologize for any feelings you may have hurt, whether intentional or not.
Posts: 349 | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
If she won't talk to you, there really isn't much that you can do. I imagine the fact that you have common friends is making the whole situation all the more uncomfortable. I guess the best I can suggest is to be polite and reasonable, but firm. If she doesn't want to talk to you, fine, but I hope the "pretending you don't exist" doesn't extend to interrupting you or steering conversations away; don't put up with it if it does. If you can keep a level head, it's likely your friends- like, it would seem, everyone else on Hatrack- will recognize the person who is actually being unreasonable.
Posts: 3826 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Also, even if drama queens fool some of the people some of the time, eventually her game will out and others will recognize her tactics, because they'll become players in her melodramas as well. By then she will have moved on to a new group of friends unaware of her tactics with whom she still has credibility.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I've had something similar but much less extreme happen with a member of my group of friends. There's a girl in our group that never calls us, never makes an effort of any kind to hang out with us, and in general is just never there. We try all the time to get her to come out with us but she is usually either unreachable or says no. And whenever we get into a discussion about it with her and say "you need to call US" she always turns it around and says "well you could call me too," at which point the argument just implodes, because there's no point arguing with her at that point.
I think Dag nailed it with this: "Don't seek her out individually. Simply continue to go to dinners and Frisbee as you normally would. Interact with your mutual friends. Greet her if you wish in their presence. Don't bad mouth her, question her motives, her try to involve your mutual friends in the matter." That seems like great advice to me. You've tried everything I think available to you that isn't encroaching on her in any harmful way. I think it comes down to this: The ball is in her court. There ain't much else you can do. And I don't really think you did anything wrong.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Thanks for the advice everyone. I think I mostly needed reality check that I hadn't done anything warranting this behavior.
Yeah, since she went to the extreme of ignoring me and blocking me I pretty much gave up and have made no effort to make contact at all. Happily I haven't had to see her too much since then (it's just awkward when we're at the same gathering). I'm well aware that there's absolutely nothing I can do. I was more frustrated I think, by the unwillingness of everyone around me to talk about it -- for fear of getting stuck in the middle, I think. And the few I was able to get to talk about it were the ones who'd already been in the middle sorta: her roommate and my best friend. Both of whom had been mad at me at an earlier point, and so seemed to take her side as much as they would take a side. Or at least validate that her behavior made sense.
I should note that since we returned in January I moved into an on campus apartment with a number of friends and haven't returned to the Dinning Hall at all -- been having dinner at home. Happily this hasn't been a problem for the majority of my friends because said apartment has become home away from dorm room for most of them. Our living room has become the lounge, study room, favored hang out spot for most of them. Again friend1 is not counted among the folks who treat it thus.
quote:Also, even if drama queens fool some of the people some of the time, eventually her game will out and others will recognize her tactics, because they'll become players in her melodramas as well. By then she will have moved on to a new group of friends unaware of her tactics with whom she still has credibility.
That's a little bit harsh. I don't think she fully fits what you would call a drama queen. She's definitely a little bit of one, but not that much of one. She's generally seems to be a pretty loyal friend. I think I'm just an exception to this rule because there was so much past drama.
Though at the moment I'm pissed off enough at her that I don't think I care if she ever gets over it.
Anyway, thanks for the advice and reality check everyone. I really appreciate it.
Posts: 3295 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I haven't had a chance to read the whole post yet, will do, but Daniel being roller coastery makes me very happy for some peculiar reason (or that i just can't figure it out at all)
Posts: 5362 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I saw similarities to the behavior of someone I know who has alienated a lot of people around here recently. Sorry to hear that things have gone badly with an otherwise nice person. Sounds like you are handling things well.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Also, she may not even be sure herself about what she is doing, and her actions & reactions may not be very rationally planned. You are being a good friend -- even if sorta distant -- by continuing to take the high ground and treating her gently and in a way respectful of her stated wishes. Really, that's all you can do, and it speaks well of you to try.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
while I agree with all the advise I've seen offered here, I do want to clarify that SOME negative reaction from her would not have been at all out of line (unfortunate, but not out of line).
When we get caught up in relationships it can significantly affect our friendships (whether we realize it or not). Now good friendships should just learn to get along with this change, as it's a natural part of life, but it is somewhat painful to adjust to.
Case in point: last year at college I'm living in a house with 4 other friends. My best friend starts dating his soon-to-be fiance. Now the combination of the GF and his senior design project means that he goes on a similar trend to your example and goes from a lot of group contact (i.e. daily interaction with the rest of the house, communal meals, watching various TV shows together, gaming together, random chats etc...) to minimal group contact (seeing some portion of us every few days and doing something legitimately social every few weeks on average). We were all frustrated with this development (some more than others) and eventually it came to some pretty heated arguments as he was sometimes treating us like nothing had changed. Now eventually the group dynamic just shifted to accept this new development, but there was definately a rocky transitional period. What made the transition worse was that he did not really admit that it was happening...
So what I'm cautioning you to realize is that while it seems like relatively small changes on your part (missing out on a few dinners a week etc) all the little things add up quickly, and may appear to be a bigger change in behavior than you realize. Maybe you're not in your room as much anymore, and friends used to just stop in all the time, etc... also, if you went from 6-7 dinners a week to 1-2, that's a pretty huge change when you think about it (~75% drop in dinner participation). Like I said, part of what can mitigate this is just admitting when you are in the group's presence that it's a bummer you don't get to hang out as much as you used to... and maintaining the occasional stops in to chat for 5 minutes also helps (like you said you were still doing).
So summary: nothing I'm aware of in this situation justifies the complete/sudden snubbing that you got, but at the same time there is some quasi-legitimate grievance/frustration on her part as well.
Posts: 1038 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:She might be. We don't know her motivation. And:
I disagree. The motivation for ending a friendship cannot, by itself, render the ending of that friendship jerklike.
quote:If her reasons are stupid, then I think her behavior qualifies as jerklike.
We seem to disagree on a fundamental premise. Her reasons are irrelevant to whether her behavior is jerklike. She is not required to have sufficient reason to decide to avoid someone.
The whole idea of considering whether her decision to end contact is justified is problematic.
Certainly there are actions whose jerkiness level depends on the motivation for the actions. This is not one of them.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Certainly there are actions whose jerkiness level depends on the motivation for the actions. This is not one of them.
I guess "jerk," being a poorly defined term, is not a good word to argue over. Alcon feels that her behavior is unnecessarily hurtful, to him. She is shunning him, which is known to be hurtful behavior, and very typical of the "mean girls" syndrome.
If she has a legitimate reason, such as that she feels he threatened her in some way (not saying he did, merely an example) then it would be reasonable for her to try to avoid him. But even in that case it doesn't solve any problems to leave him in the dark about her reasons.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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