posted
Stands for Bones and Raw Food or Biologically Appropriate Raw Food, a diet advocated by a growing number of cat . . . people. (I won't say experts because I don't know how many credentialled folk are on board.)
It's not strictly for cats, but that's where I'm coming from. The theory is that unlike people or dogs, cats are obligate carnivores--they must eat an all-meat diet to attain optimum health. So the cat foods filled with grains and other fillers are not doing them any good -- especially dry food, because it's mostly grain and because it doesn't contain the moisture cats need since they have a low thirst drive.
Health problems with our older cats and a comment from our vet, that some research out of Cornell was indicating that dry food was causing digestive problems in cats, led to a lot of reading online. Wow. I don't think there's any doubt that dry food is bad for cats. I haven't done the research on dogs, but if I had a dog I'd be looking into it pretty thoroughly. Here are some links:
Here is the website I spent the most time at, by a passionate raw-food diet advocate and DVM. She includes a pdf link to a veterinary journal article called "The Carnivore Connection to Nutrition in Cats" which provides some of the scientific basis. There is a useful overview on about.com
I won't go into the gory details, but let's just say that although I've not yet converted to the raw food diet advocated on those sites, we have totally removed the dry food from one cat's diet, are trying to do so w/ the second (who is a pickier eater and a harder sell), and will never again let any cats I own eat kibble at will. I'm afraid I do give it to Merlin (the semi-feral cat I've subjected you to too many stories about already) because sprinkling it in his dish allows me to close the door where he's staying w/o him getting out! But it will never be a mainstay of his diet.
What I don't understand is why, after all we've gone through w/ the two older cats (both diagnosed w/ something called megacolon, and one of them w/ a chronic vomiting problem), the vet didn't mention this long before. Another vet in the office told us not to go the raw foods route because of the bacterial risk; she said that every conference she's been to says it's risky, that tests show harmful bacteria present in fecal samples of cats on these diets, even if they don't fall ill, and that w/ a GI-compromised cat like ours it's not a good idea.
I'm not entirely convinced that the raw foods pose a substantial risk. The advocates all say that it has healed, not hurt, their cats with conditions similar to mine. For now both laziness, cheapness, and following the counsel of the vet will win out -- but if nothing else, rethink your feeding of dry food to your cats. From what I've read, it is really what has caused the conditions our older cats are suffering from.
So, has anyone ever tried this or known anyone who has? Any opinions pro/con?
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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I've had a great number of cats live to be 12 or older with minimal health problems on dry food and only occasional wet food or tuna or whatever for a treat (they all have had a fondness for anything with garbonzos but especially falafel batter...) But almost exclusively dry food.
One got sick with polycystitis the last year or 2 of her life, but she was 20 when she died. None of the others have had extensive health problems (just the occasional infection from a fight, whatever) and of the others that died, most were hit by cars or disappeared while coyotes were roaming the neighborhood.
My anecdotal drive is not strong enough to switch my cats, therefore.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
We feed our cats some dry cat food, but we expect them to supplement that with a steady diet of rodents.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Some of our cats when I was growing up ate sweet corn...they'd claw open the ears on the stalks and gnaw away. We only provided dry cat food.
They regularly caught birds and mice outside and ate those too, so it's not like they couldn't get some natural cat food too.
I don't know whether our cats were weird, or if the corn fooled them into thinking "cat nutrition" somehow, or what.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
There are a lot of BARF advocates in the dog community as well. Personally, I don't think the BARF diet is a good one (for dogs - haven't studied the issue for cats). I have a few reasons for why I think it's a poor idea, actually.
First, I think feeding pets BARF, just like eating vegan, can be difficult to do in a balanced, healthy manner. For dogs, at least, you can't just toss them half a chicken every day and expect to be done with it - there's lots of balancing of different types of meat (and other things like veggies, I think) that needs to be done for BARF to be healthy. I doubt most pet owners will do a good job at it, frankly. And unlike a human eating a vegan diet, the pet can't tell you that it's really craving a certain type of food, or it's feeling a bit worn down, or a bit of a muscle ache or any of the other subtle signs that we often use to figure out what our bodies need. The owner has to go with behavioral clues & macro health issues (coat damage, gum color, eyes, etc), which often just aren't enough, IMO.
Second, for dogs at least, there's some very, very good dry dog food out there. We buy an ultra-premium mix for our pup which is almost certainly much healthier & balanced than anything we feed ourselves. It's all organic and the first few ingredients are different kinds of meat, followed by veggies. No fillers at all. Since dogs are often used for work, there's some decent science behind the development of these foods - which is not true for any BARF diet I've seen. Now, some animals do have allergies to things common in most dry mixes, which is why they improve on BARF diets - but there's almost always an option for dry food without those allergens if an owner hunts around.
Third, the basic argument for BARF seems pretty flawed to me (again, as I've seen it for dogs). The idea is that feeding BARF gets closer to the natural diet of wild dogs/wolves, and therefore is more appropriate for pet dogs. The problem with this reasoning is that wild dogs and wolves do not often live as long as pet dogs, nor do they face the same sort of environment or lifestyle. Evolution doesn't create digestive systems/diets that give the best possible life to animals; it creates the best digestive system/diet that allows an animal to pass on its genes, given the costs of developing and "perfecting" that digestive system. The diet a wild creature gets is probably not a first-best option.
I'm willing to hear alternative points of views on this issue, as I haven't studied the issue in depth, but what I have read at this point has convinced me to not feed my dog BARF.
Posts: 2409 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote:We feed our cats some dry cat food, but we expect them to supplement that with a steady diet of rodents.
Same, but with wet food also. Wet food in the morning, dry food if she's in in the evening and small animals from the back garden if she's hungry. Occasionally we give her cooked (unflavoured, spiced etc.) remains of our dinner meat. She appears to be in excellent health.
Like everything, I think a balance is in order.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I think my dog is supplementing his diet with stuff outside. He brought us a dead rat once, which completely disgusted me. We are trying to get him to lose weight so we use all this measured out diet food and he has yet to lose any weight (and has gained). It is very frustrating.
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008
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My bold tom cat will not eat fresh meat or canned cat food. He only likes IAMS dry stuff. Although he did eat a bird last week and smoothed an even layer of feathers over the living room rug.
Posts: 1167 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Yep...I have been barfing all day (notice it isn't in caps when I say that).
I have heard about this for dogs, but it is a little fanatical to me and doesn't seems to be very well thought out.
Natural doesn't mean healthy. Apple seeds are natural but can kill a dog. So can infected/contaminated food, regardless of what that food consists of, so I don't think it is worth the risks for me.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I've been feeding my dog and cat a version of barf for years now. They are healthy and obnoxious.
I started with commercial versions, but now it's entirely homegrown, so to speak. I supplement the cat's diet, just to be on the safe side. I'm not terribly fanatical and I thought it out very carefully .
We actually do keep kibble for emergencies (power outages, unexpected travel). We call it twinkies. The dog loves the kibble, but it makes her... odorous.
Both animals started on kibble and moved to barf fairly easily. Sagan (the cat) was a tougher sell, and I gather that is normal. It took about a week of mixing gradually. Curie (the dog) thinks it is grand. But she IS a dog. I think she would eat aluminum foil if I let her.
They both keep great weights, great teeth, and energy. Their coats are awesome.
Posts: 628 | Registered: Nov 1999
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quote:Originally posted by scifibum: Some of our cats when I was growing up ate sweet corn...they'd claw open the ears on the stalks and gnaw away. We only provided dry cat food.
My cat (really my parents') loves sweet corn. Cooked, anyway. He also used to like pretty much any green vegetable put in front of him, but these days just goes for the peas.
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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quote: I've had a great number of cats live to be 12 or older with minimal health problems on dry food and only occasional wet food or tuna or whatever for a treat (they all have had a fondness for anything with garbonzos but especially falafel batter...) But almost exclusively dry food.
posted
I'd like to point out that most cats who are fed by their owners also supplement their diet with insects, mice, and whatever other little creatures they can find. Just because you didn't see the cat eat it, don't mean he didn't.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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quote:I'd like to point out that most cats who are fed by their owners also supplement their diet with insects, mice, and whatever other little creatures they can find. Just because you didn't see the cat eat it, don't mean he didn't.
Obviously, but our tom cat always brings back the critters for our approval, before devouring them on the front porch. Just because you didn't see the cat eat it, doesn't mean he didn't, unless of course you see an odd gizzard, tail, or other organ laying around.
Posts: 1813 | Registered: Apr 2001
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My dearly-departed cat once trapped a bird in a stereo. I'm quite serious. I don't know if she did it on purpose (saving for later? LOL), but she was one heck of a huntress. I've never seen a better one.
She used to sit at the window and watch birds. She'd make these little involuntary "meh" or "mah" sounds, like "I want to kick those feathery butts so bad...". I've seen her go 5 feet up a tree in one jump and take down a good sized bird with one paw. She spent a good chunk of her time in her middle years (lived to be 22) in the suspended ceiling in the basement. I finally realized, years later, that she was, quite probably, probably hunting the house mice in there. She'd jump up through a hole in the ceiling and stay up there for hours.
Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005
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I just wanted to stop back in and say something so you don't all think I abandoned the thread I started.
I will say that I wouldn't be motivated to change the dry food myself unless I'd had this experience with these two cats with the same bizarre syndrome. We have also had many cats live long lives with dry food left down for them to eat at will (although they've all had canned food daily as well).
Two of them have been significantly overweight, though, and two of them have had kidney problems in their older years. Some of the feline health problems that have been associated with dry food, along with the digestive tract issues I mentioned, are renal failure, obesity and diabetes.
Posts: 3149 | Registered: Jul 2005
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We switched our dogs over to Azmira (well two were started on it from the time we got them and one was switched). The one dog that we switched had a noticeable decline in the frequency and duration of his seizures (he has epilepsy). His coat got smoother too. The other two are quite healthy. The big dog lives outside so he may supplement his diet but his teeth are perfect and all three are much healthier.
Posts: 1132 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I have German Shepherds, and I feed a raw diet. One is a growing (1 yr) pup and one is an adult (almost 7 yrs). Both are in great shape (according to my vet, who said that I must be doing something right). They do not have "dog breath", I have not needed to have their teeth cleaned (the older dog was formerly on kibble, and his teeth are noticably whiter), and there is less waste in the back yard. They eat a variety of meats and other things, not just chicken. It does take more effort, but I wind up with happier, healthier dogs. (And feeding time can be really interesting when company is over. It's a little like Wild Kingdom.) Dr. Ian Billinghurst has a book on the subject, and there is a web site on the BARF diet. (Also, a number of GSD and dog training sites have reference material on the diet.) No experience with cats, though.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Jun 2007
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All of you who have indicated that your cats or dogs eat rodents, etc..... how do you control parasites? Do you have to do regular deworming?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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but his teeth are perfect and all three are much healthier.
