posted
...about a conflict in the seventh dimension over the right to harvest creatures that exist in the third dimension (us) in excess. The way they see us is analagous to the way we see plants: plants exist in the second dimension and seem lower lifeforms than us as we exist in the third dimension and seem lower lifeforms to those above us. The conservationists of their dimension contact us by manipulatings the electric light wavelenghts that we can see, but are merely a small subset of what they can see. They do this as they have always done it, in the forms of the gods the various people of earth were once familiar with. Those that wish to harvest humans in the seventh dimension are waiting for a particular moment that occurs in the history of man. They know it is coming, but we haven't gotten there yet. The conservationists plan to prevent this from happening by enlisting the help of a person, possibly a hero, from our dimension. This hero probably has to assemble a group of unlikely and humorous members in order to complete the task.
Is this a story that should be told? I've been hearing a lot about quantum physics and not understood most of it, but thought that plants seemed like they existed in the second dimension, as one point that then grows to another point. If they were, how would we look to those in dimensions higher than us? As flesh colored tubes they wade through in their eternal awareness? Anyway, I've been thinking about what could be a story based on those thoughts and haven't shared them and felt like I wanted to share them and hopefully that is one of the things that Hatrack is there for.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I can't speak to the story, I'm certainly no art critic! However the dimension thing is maybe a little closer to home. People often talk about "another dimension" as if it's a parallel universe, but of course that's not the case. The number of dimensions represents the number of cardinal directions; or the number of values you'd need to describe the position of a point. On the Earth's surface it's two: we often use longitude and latitude. Of course this is an abstraction of reality, but we can certainly picture it (then there's a whole discussion of fractal dimensions that allow for any rational number greater than or equal to one to be a dimensions, or for all I know less than one but clearly this is not something I know a ton about).
Plants are decidedly three dimensional, you can tell because to describe the flower in entirety you'd need three number for each point on the flower (it's position above the ground, and to the North/South and East/West of the center of the stock for example). Existing in more dimensions (like 7) would have rather outlandish consequences (string theory calls for a lot of dimensions, but our experience with them is still limited to 3 plus time, or 4 depending on how you think of it). Certainly a being that was able to move in 7 dimensions would have some unusual skills (like possibly the ability to appear to move instantaneously in our three dimensions) but it's beyond me to really picture what a truly 7-dimensional being would do.
Like said this isn't really a comment on the story but it seems like the point is to imagine creatures that are far more advanced than we are: but the big difference between us and plants isn't dimensions. I'd say focus more on ability to move, and to think then something as abstract as 7 dimensions but that's just me.
posted
Why would they want to harvest humans anyway? And why the 3rd dimension instead of the 5th?
What about functioning in the 7th dimension gives these beings any more awareness of their "dimensionality" than we have of ours? Why would they even think to take advantage of a lower dimension? Wouldn't they just think of everything in terms of 7 dimensions?
I'm asking those questions just in case answering them would help you form more insight for the story, not to be argumentative.
I think it would be very difficult to tell a coherent story from the perspective of the 7th dimension. It's hard enough dealing with the 4th dimension in a story.
Also, you're essentially telling a story of some beings from a different place coming to our place. You'd have to make sure it was crucial to the plot that these different places be dimensions, not just buildings or islands.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
The number seven was a shot in the dark. Maybe fourth or fifth would make it more applicable? One of the things I was thinking about was something I heard on a radio show, that there are several types of energy or force, but that we only experience two, electrical and gravity. If the higher dimensions needed to harvest electrical energy for use in their dimension, they could look to us for harvest. This would also be how, I think maybe, they could exist all around us at the same time, and in different dimensions, like you mentioned, Hobbes. They would be existing around us and through us and throughout our time in ways that we couldn't even comprehend. But if we are limited to three or four dimensions (including time), and are confined to the earth, would they even notice that. Would they defy space as well. Universaly large. It would be up to them to communicate with us. We would never be able to talk to them, any more than we can talk to plants. Plants don't exist in the second dimension to us, but maybe they do to them. They don't notice the area or volume of the flowers or fruit, they just notice the point they start from and the point they are trying to get to, always the same as they are at any particular moment, not noticing the fourth dimension, time. Okay, I'm not sure about most of this. Stream of thought. Thanks for your responses. I'm not even sure how to approach the quasi-scientific side of this because my grasp is to poor.
Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Also, you're essentially telling a story of some beings from a different place coming to our place. You'd have to make sure it was crucial to the plot that these different places be dimensions, not just buildings or islands.
I was thinking that the avenue the xth dimensional beings would use to communicate would be manipulating light waves so that we would see creatures we recognize talking to us. Those creatures would be the gods that ancient earthlings worshipped. They hadn't needed those guises in a while and hadn't used them, but they brought them back. So the story would bring them back and their persnalities and maybe how those personalities shaped the cultures they communicated with in the past, and how we have grown apart from those and how we could get that back. Maybe?
edit:
quote:Can I harvest some beings that live in the first or second dimension?
Every day when you mow your lawn or eat your vegetables. Posts: 2596 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
[EDIT: This post was written before the above two appeared, so that's the context]
Vonk, I personally recommend afr's advice (maybe you're a robot! ) If this is something your not well versed in your story will be dragged down by this aspect that doesn't really seem to be an integral part of the tale. It sounds more like a story about powerful beings/people interacting with us and/ a hero story about a person picked to save us. The dimension thing is rather superfluous.
A creature that is actually 7 dimensional would be visible to us in three dimensions, but a three dimensional but able to travel through more dimensions could exist "around us" though what that means is nebulous in this case. It begins to get confusing though. If we take a more conventional view of our current dimensional situation (4 dimensions with the 4th being time) then we are three dimensional beings with the ability to travel through 4 or 4 dimensional beings with no ability to travel at all (as our entire lives could be thought of as a 4-dimensional snap shot). In either case we really have no experience in what it would mean to interact with a creation that has fewer dimensions as the very act of interaction requires that we engage in 4th dimensional travel (i.e. time is required for cause and effect). Do you see the problem? This might be an interesting are to try and flesh out but the concepts are at best murky and would most likely distract from an actual plot driven story.
I'm not up on the whole debate between four versus three fundamental forces so I don't know what the current thinking is. In general there is gravity, electromagnetic, and the strong and weak nuclear forces (the debate being is the weak force really a separate force or not). Gravity dominates the universe at a macro scale (controlling galaxies, planets and so forth). Our size puts us on the cusp of being controlled by the electromagnetic and gravity forces. Clearly gravity plays a role in large scale physical actions (like jumping, or driving a car) and the electric force on a smaller scale (like our ability to use our muscles, eat, or even enjoy modern conveniences like the Internet ). However, that doesn't mean the other forces don't play a role in our lives. The strong nuclear force is what keeps atom's nucleus's from ripping apart from the strong concentration of positive electrical charge (a bunch of protons wouldn't normally want to hang around each other). Our inability to experience this force the way we do gravity is not due to our dimensional state, but our size. We are a lot bigger than an atom so it's not really on our scale. I'm not sure what you were planning on doing with these fundamental forces but multiple dimensions isn't going to help experience more of them.
quote:I was thinking that the avenue the xth dimensional beings would use to communicate would be manipulating light waves so that we would see creatures we recognize talking to us. Those creatures would be the gods that ancient earthlings worshipped. They hadn't needed those guises in a while and hadn't used them, but they brought them back. So the story would bring them back and their persnalities and maybe how those personalities shaped the cultures they communicated with in the past, and how we have grown apart from those and how we could get that back. Maybe?
This could be an interesting story and taken many ways. In fact, it sounds a lot like the opening of 2001. There's really no need for special effects like "manipulating light" any more than we need to "manipulate light" when we turn on a TV screen. I mean to me, it sounds like you're talking about holograms which certainly don't require more than three dimensions.
posted
Hmm Hmm Hmm. This is all very helpful. Thank you. I can see that you are right, but I feel like there is a way to overcome it. The biggest trap is going to be dragging down the story, as you say. I will stew on this, thoroughly. At this point, at most, I can say that these representation of the creatures and the science in the story will probably have to be metaphoric/comedic/cleverly manipulated to obscure the obvious detatchment from reality (which may well prove to be beyond me).
Edit: Okay. I feel like there has to be a reason that that old gods came back. There's already lots of stories about it. I like higher dimensional creatures, that aren't so different than us personality wise. While I really like the new science theories being included, it would probably detract from the story. I could probably bring in random theories to make certain points, though, even if they aren't, technically, correct (edit2: I'd really like them to be, though). And then there's the why did they come back? Power struggle in their dimension?
quote: If we take a more conventional view of our current dimensional situation (4 dimensions with the 4th being time) then we are three dimensional beings with the ability to travel through 4 or 4 dimensional beings with no ability to travel at all (as our entire lives could be thought of as a 4-dimensional snap shot). In either case we really have no experience in what it would mean to interact with a creation that has fewer dimensions as the very act of interaction requires that we engage in 4th dimensional travel (i.e. time is required for cause and effect). Do you see the problem? This might be an interesting are to try and flesh out but the concepts are at best murky and would most likely distract from an actual plot driven story.
If one of the higher dimensions, maybe five or six, includes all of the possibilities of all of the universes starting with the big bang, and they travel through and live in this reality despite all evidence that we mere three D creatures can muster, maybe we would look like tubes of pink, waving through possibilities from beginning to end, in a fluid snapshot, like seaweed in a gentle current.
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quote:The conservationists of their dimension contact us by manipulatings the electric light wavelenghts that we can see, but are merely a small subset of what they can see. They do this as they have always done it, in the forms of the gods the various people of earth were once familiar with. Those that wish to harvest humans in the seventh dimension are waiting...
While not right on the nose, this sounds a whole lot like the last season or so of Stargate SG-1 and the whole Ori thing. *whistles*
Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Has any one read the short story "Angles" by OSC in his recent anthology? It also deals with other dimensional beings or at least places. The story is pretty good, but there are too many loose plots and characters that don't seem to fit with the ending.
Personally, the idea that plants live in another dimensional sphere is great. I am not saying they do, but if they did then we 3 and a half D's wouldn't recognize it. Too much criticism so far with the idea that us humans who live in our D world would be able to experience another D than what we live in. The point is that we can't, but those who have MORE Dims certainly can also experience our Dims and perhaps have the power of manipulation. In that case, I would definitely consider extending the Dims to perhaps Ten.
One criticism that I do agree with is that it sounds a lot like Stargate SG1, although they were hungry for power and not flesh. That might be a problem right there. These InterDim gods would need to harvest humans for more than mere physical substance. What source of energy they get from the 3 Dim lifeforms should be thought about more. I would also try for a deeper plot than just conservation.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Occasional: One criticism that I do agree with is that it sounds a lot like Stargate SG1, although they were hungry for power and not flesh. That might be a problem right there. These InterDim gods would need to harvest humans for more than mere physical substance. What source of energy they get from the 3 Dim lifeforms should be thought about more. I would also try for a deeper plot than just conservation.
Or they could just squeeze out and drink the essence like in the Dark Crystal. Posts: 691 | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
I didn't finish SG1, so I will have to, in order to differentiate my story enough. Of course, then I risk their good ideas contaminating my story and making it less original. But it's okay, I'm suspisious that RDA is some sort of diety anyways. I wonder if I could get him to do a cameo in my story? One of the gods/creatures looks like Coyote, one looks like Loki, one looks like Pan, and one looks like Richard Dean Anderson.
More responses coming to other points made.
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posted
You do not understand enough physics to use it interestingly in your story, or even fake it convincingly. Write it as fantasy instead.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Yes, and while 90% of everything is dreck, the proportion is even higher in those parts of science fiction that are fantasy. If something is magic, then label it as magic. Done. Don't mess about.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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King of Men, I don't suppose you label Star Trek, Star Wars, and the Matrix as "Magic Fantasy" and not "Science Fiction" do you?
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A three dimensional being can look in to a two dimensional beings insides. Therefore a four dimensional being could look into our insides.
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) If this is something your not well versed in your story will be dragged down by this aspect that doesn't really seem to be an integral part of the tale. It sounds more like a story about powerful beings/people interacting with us and/ a hero story about a person picked to save us. The dimension thing is rather superfluous.![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
