posted
Would the Soviets have shot him right away? Would he have been put on trial in Nuremberg and then hanged? Would've his subordinates taken as much of the blame if he were still alive?
Reason being that IF he was put on trial in Nuremberg it would've been helluva interesting trial, his fate for sure sealed but interesting nonetheless assuming if my perception of his character is correct and he attempts one last effort at propaganda grandstanding on his proverbial soapbox in his attempts to direct the Allies to look at the Soviets and "others".
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If I could beam a history education, like, a real one, into everyone's heads the second they start theorycrafting the world wars
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quote:Originally posted by Nighthawk: * Snaps ten foot pole in two *
So your going to touch this with a 5 foot pole instead?
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If I could beam a history education, like, a real one, into everyone's heads the second they start theorycrafting the world wars
Unnecessary as I probably know more then the average American, for example, the Soviets won WWII not the Americans, classic misunderstanding.
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What you likely meant to say is that the Soviets destroyed the fighting power of the Wehrmacht. That's not the same thing.
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My reading of history gave me the distinct impression that Hitler had pretty much come apart in an irreversible way by the time he committed suicide. Which undoubtedly influenced him committing suicide, but the point is unless we alter that part of history too (and then were do we stop?) I don't know that he would havr been capable of making that kind of defense after having been captured by the enemies he'd spent his life insisting are inferior to him. Added to which there's the fact that he railed against his commanders who allowed themselves to be taken alive and not killing themselves or at least dying in a pitched battle to the end. It's hard to imagine a scenario that would leave Hitler's character intact as well as his body.
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Actually from my impression watching Rise of Evil a dramatized reenactment of his rise to power he pretty much broke apart in a similar way after the failed putsch, external factors got him to bounce back, its possible that the very mindset that would hypothetically convince him to not commit suicide would arguably also make his hypothetical court case in Nuremberg interesting.
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Actually, from my impression watching Rise Of Evil (a dramatized re-enactment of Hitler's rise to power), he pretty much broke apart in a similar way after the failed Putsch. External factors got him to bounce back, and it's possible that the very mindset that would (hypothetically) convince him not to commit suicide would also make his court case in Nuremberg interesting.
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Blayne, I didn't change a single word of your post, unless I needed to to make it read like a normal sentence. I added punctuation and a few conjunctions, and I used Hitler's name to get rid of a dangling modifier problem. Otherwise, the above is exactly your post -- only grammatically correct. Notice how much more readable my version is, and how much more cogent the argument seems when it's presented properly.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If I could beam a history education, like, a real one, into everyone's heads the second they start theorycrafting the world wars
Unnecessary as I probably know more then the average American, for example, the Soviets won WWII not the Americans, classic misunderstanding.
How many times I've heard this petulant boast from a self-satisfied Canadian. "I probably know more about X than the average American," whether they're talking about our government, our history, our laws- whatever. Canadians don't strike me as totally egotistical, so it's a little off-putting to hear them brag in this way.
Besides, about half of Americans know more about these things than the average American- that's how we get the average American, we didn't just make him up out of nothing.
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quote:Originally posted by Orincoro: ... Canadians don't strike me as totally egotistical, so it's a little off-putting to hear them brag in this way.
It has got little to do with ego, its specifically to do with Americans. You may note that Canadians do not have the same dynamic with citizens of other countries.
As for an explanation, I would say that its an attitude cultivated by in-part America's own media (reality shows and Fox-based media hardly give a sympathetic portrayal* of intelligent Americans) and Canadian shows such as the hilarious Talking to Americans. In short, familiarity breeds contempt.
I daresay that electing Bush W not once, but twice has hardly contributed to a glowing perception of the intelligence of at least half of the American population either.
* I would add that this is part of the cost of a political party that actively demonizes science and the intelligent (elitists?). The rest of us start to take their word for it.
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If Canada is so smart, they'll realize that half the people their talking down to agree with them. I really do like Canadians, but I've had enough of meeting them and immediately being expected to answer for my country to them. I don't even live there- that's the worst part.
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I've never had a bad experience with Canadians, and I run into them on a fairly regularly basis living as close to the border as I do.
I think there are just as many smart as stupid Canadians and Americans, the problem is the media. The outside worlds of any national generally get a pretty narrow picture of the nation in question. Mass media both here and abroad, through our own depictions of ourselves and through their feelings and depictions based on our actions around the world color their perceptions far more than actual face to face meetings.
Everyone has stereotypes. Americans certainly aren't lacking in their stereotypes of say, French people. Everyone has theirs of Americans as well. Few of them seem to be earned on the individual level, they all come from the macroscopic rumor level.
Besides, what is the "average American" intelligence level? I doubt most people talking about the average American would be able to agree on much of anything there. Would you say stupid? Smart? Educated? Uneducated? And what even constitutes those things?
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I have to agree with Hobbes on this, his depression after the failure of the beer hall putsch was nothing like the continual unraveling that took place during the months of German defeat and retreat, and his reported physical symptoms were significant and pronounced, whatever was displayed in the cinematic version of his life. Not that I'm trying to rain on your "Hitler trial" parade, I just can't imagine that there was really any possible scenario in which an mentally intact Hitler is put on trial.
posted
Getting back to the OP, why is this an interesting alt-hist scenario? It doesn't seem to me that Germany or the Cold War more generally would develop any differently because there was an extra defendant, even a very important one, at Nuremberg. Conceivably the Germans could have got a bit more closure by shooting him rather than the suicide, but even then, it would be the Allies doing it, not the Germans. A rather more interesting what-if, IMO, is what if one of the coup attempts had succeeded?
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It amazes me, reading about how close they came and the stupid things hat kept the attempts on Hitler's life from succeeding! I don't know that I really believe any of the organizations behind the coup attempts were really prepared to take over the country, but it was only pure luck (or its reverse I suppose) that kept them from killing Hitler as far as I can tell.
quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: If I could beam a history education, like, a real one, into everyone's heads the second they start theorycrafting the world wars
Unnecessary as I probably know more then the average American
Whatever you know is so hopelessly buried under your biases and fanboyisms that it would take a history professor a few years to fix it.
Thus the need for my MIND BEAM.
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Blayne Bradley
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Nah, I can honestly and with all seriousness say that I am very well informed in world history, I may not know exact dates or German ordinance numbers but the flow of history and what transpired for most of the interesting parts of history I do very well know and take great pride in it.
So in short do not under any circumstances even pretend to think you know better about what I may or may not know. Think of it as my berserk button, last I checked none of my arguments with you had to do with history whatsoever unless your one of the ones who joins in on the Chinese Civil war discussions and even then while you may differ with my interpretation of what transpired the facts that I have stated are irrefutable.
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quote:So in short do not under any circumstances even pretend to think you know better about what I may or may not know.
I've already tooled you in a couple of historically related discussions, but if your defense is "being challenged on my prideful historical expertise is my BERSERK BUTTON so DON'T DO IT" then it would be most hilarious to go for a third time.
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Blayne Bradley
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Name 1.
If your referring to my earlier comments regarding to the Soviet Unions role in WWII I am unadoubtably correct in that victory for the Allies essentially rested on the shoulders of the Soviet Union, some 80% of the German war effort was concentrated there, the germans lost more men in the first 6 weeks of fighting in Russia then in the WHOLE WAR before that point, by June 6th 1944 the Russians were on the verge of launching Bagration, a military operation aiming to break army group center once and for all and succeeded with over 100,000 German prisoners and/or casualties and the irrecoverable loss of equipment, Overlord, Market Garden, Bulge and the Ruhr pocket is all one big side show by comparison and if Hitler hadn't held the idiot ball at the time could've easily held the allies at bay.
Please go on, in precisely what fashion did you "tool me" in a discussion about history.
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Blayne Bradley
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Also your being idiotic, I did not say that, my berserk button is people without evidence and purely on emotional bias claiming outright that I somehow am not informed in world history. The sheer overgeneralized claim is what pisses me off, not any actual discussion of the facts.
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Eh, thats ok. I wouldn't worry too much about it since you're probably wrong anyways, mostly because you're Blayne and you're not informed in world history.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Please go on, in precisely what fashion did you "tool me" in a discussion about history.
1. You start up with going into a massive multi-post revisionist history diatribe related either to china fanboidom or russia fanboidom.
2. I post corrections
3. You get very angry.
4. More people post corrections.
5. ???
6. Profit.
quote:Also your being idiotic
I guess I get the 'bad grammar backbite' for free.
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary:
quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Please go on, in precisely what fashion did you "tool me" in a discussion about history.
1. You start up with going into a massive multi-post revisionist history diatribe related either to china fanboidom or russia fanboidom.
2. I post corrections
3. You get very angry.
4. More people post corrections.
5. ???
6. Profit.
quote:Also your being idiotic
I guess I get the 'bad grammar backbite' for free.
More idiosyncrasies, I have routinely backed up my claims with sources, usually from well renown historians, very rarely has the historical arguments gone down to actual facts but our interpretations of them and of international law. There is no revisionism, only uncovering the historical facts from unbiased and usually british sources. As for discussions about Russia I think we've had virtually none of those except for those pertaining to the second world war and my views on Normandy which if i recall people agreed with me in theory only quibbled on more long term realpolitik such as "well if we didnt have normandy then the Russians wouldve pushed to the channel"
I think a proper review of our discussions show I am very rarely wrong about anything involving facts, the arguments only get heated over our interpretation or conclusions of the facts.
So put out or shut up. Every word you so far typing out now is just disrespectful garbage, you haven't uttered a single word of respect to me as a peer or in the most hilarious case of HistoricalVillainPromotion simply refer to be in overgeneralized baseless characterizations and so far never once taken my challenge to actually so far forthwith put out a reasoned argument or even bothered to address the point above, is my conclusion or more specifically the facts I presented about Russia's contribution to WWII incorrect? Am I or am I not? Do you answer? Nay! You resort to childish juvenile pranks that an 8 year old would be embarrased by.
Find a historical subject I consider myself well read about, say the Chinese Civil war or the Great Leap Forward, or some obscure part of the 7 years War, find something I have claimed and explain calmly, and without baseless irrational slander actually argue why I think I am wrong, and then we will see.
Until then your simply another faceless internet child with pretensions to something bigger then yourself, worse a troll because you are inherently incapable of anything constructive.
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Blayne Bradley
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Eh, thats ok. I wouldn't worry too much about it since you're probably wrong anyways, mostly because you're Blayne and you're not informed in world history.
[Removed. Blayne, you know better. Don't let it happen again. If you are unable to refrain from reacting to your "berserk button" on this topic then don't discuss it here. --PJ]
[ April 13, 2009, 11:36 PM: Message edited by: Papa Janitor ]
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quote:I think a proper review of our discussions show I am very rarely wrong about anything involving facts
A proper review of your discussions, at least on hatrack, show that you are very frequently wrong about plenty of things involving facts. The side effect of this is that a lot of people just don't take you seriously anymore here because you have this reputation, you know?
My favorite example of these apparently very rare times where you are totally wrong about those fact things was when you got furious and flippant at me because I was insisting that you were wrong when you said that you couldn't buy ISK in EvE online. It's the perfect example because it's a point at which you were comically incorrect and because it was about an internet game where you fly pretend spaceships.
The historical department is usually you getting chided by people because you're blintzing out Blayne's History of China in threads about, say, Tibetan independence.
You know how it goes.
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posted
Your bringing up a discussion about what may or may not be about a video game and using that as some kind of argument to somehow support your baseless accusations about what I may or may not know about world history? Screw off.
And Your Still Wrong as if I recall the last Tibet discussion ended when I provided my sources to counter the claims about Tibetan demographics which if I recall the person probably you, never got back to me on. International Law is very clear on the issue, the foreign policy of the majority of the worlds nations are also very clear on that issue and ultimately that is what matters.
I would bet you cannot even name any of the arguments you believe I got wrong, and by arguments I mean historically documented facts, not as I said our mutually exclusive interpretation of them.
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quote:And Your Still Wrong as if I recall the last Tibet discussion ended when I provided my sources to counter the claims about Tibetan demographics which if I recall the person probably you, never got back to me on.
Oh no, it was totally not me. Other people are way more patient with you.
Also, blayne?
"You're." Start using "You're."
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Blayne Bradley
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Get a grip. Correcting someones grammar is a telltale sign of deflection and rude.
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quote:Originally posted by Blayne Bradley: Get a grip. Correcting someones grammar is a telltale sign of deflection and rude.
Using incorrect grammar is also disrespectful. Although I am entirely with you on the "you're" "your" distinction. Personally I think it doesn't matter which form you use- the context is unmistakable.
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Can I just say that if Hitler hadn't committed suicide he'd be dead now anyway, so who gives a crap?
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There is the small issue of whether or not hitler would have forged an undying metal body to house his twisted countenance within. For all we know, his refusal to commit suicide would have resulted in his raspy, metallic voice commanding legions of the Fourth Mechareich even to this day.
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quote:Originally posted by Samprimary: There is the small issue of whether or not hitler would have forged an undying metal body to house his twisted countenance within. For all we know, his refusal to commit suicide would have resulted in his raspy, metallic voice commanding legions of the Fourth Mechareich even to this day.
I think the obvious answer to that question is: Yes!
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The obvious answer is: it's a trick question. Along with mecha-zombie-Disney is mecha-zombie-Hitler. Only the secret efforts of Bugs Bunny and Bill Blazkowicz thwart their efforts to take their reigns of terror worldwide.
Geeze, pick up a history book sometime, people! Even average Americans know this, and pretty much every Canadian!
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