FacebookTwitter
Hatrack River Forum   
my profile login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Parental unit upset at college choice (Page 0)

  This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   
Author Topic: Parental unit upset at college choice
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
-- Ooh, sorry adenam.

-- Is Brandeis a "better school"? Why, if Brandeis is a "better school", does Adenam get no financial aid from the state school? Does that not happen in America?

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
State schools primarily give financial aid to residents of their own state. (Except for those students who qualify for Pell, which appears to not be the case here.) For reasons she explained, the NY school is a better option for her than the PA school.

Residents of a state pay in-state tuition for their state schools, which is usually somewhere in the range of 1/3-1/4 of out-of-state tuition. They may also be eligible for additional aid in the form of state grants or fee waivers.

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
No B or B+ student is going to get scholarships to help with that
This is nonsense. I know several B/B+ students in high school who have received multiple academic scholarships for school. Of course, a B/B+ student who didn't have other things to raise likelihood of entrance wouldn't be getting into a really good school, and if the B+ student isn't willing to take the time to seek out and apply for available scholarships, I'd say that's a pretty good indicator the student wouldn't do as well at the school or afterwards as someone who did.

And any B/B+ student who really was just a typical B/B+ student would probably be going in-state to a state school, and thus paying considerably less than $10k a year, most likely.

For another thing, really good schools subsidize primarily based on need, not ability. The best schools provide aid almost entirely based on need. This has been pointed out several times, but you keep saying things like this:

quote:
because they are good enough to get in but not good enough to be subsidized by the University
That doesn't make sense in the context of how thing are actually done.

Now, the way things work isn't perfect. There is an odd gulf between the very best (I'm using this in a reputational sense) schools that can heavily subsidize needy students and the very good state schools that are state subsidized, and in that gulf fall the quite good but not quite very best schools that can't afford to heavily subsidize needy students. However, given the state schools are available, I don't see anyone being forced to acquire loads of debt to get a very good education.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
Are you saying that the two extra years of school required to be a librarian is because they need less actual on the job training?
And less skill.
The two years "required" to be a librarian are not years necessary to impart skill; they are necessary to ensure a librarian has jumped through all the appropriate hoops and can be integrated into the profession. They are there to finish the indoctrination, not the education.

Dear god, what does a person do for two years in librarian school? Much less two years in librarian school after having already studied the subject in college? I'm being completely serious, I've had people tell me "it's complicated," but I'd like to know how. Is it learning the government bureaucracy? The decimal system? The history of libraries? Statistics? Accounting? Are there any skills that can't be learned on the job?
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
Librarians used to learn on the job. About 20 years ago, that was the most common scenario. Now, for whatever combination of reasons, there are almost no jobs for librarians that do not require an MLS.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinky
Member
Member # 693

 - posted      Profile for twinky   Email twinky         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It's kind of hilarious that engineers can get a job with a bachelor's degree but librarians can't.
This is because -- and I mean this in complete sincerity -- engineers need to be better trained than librarians, and require more skill.
Incidentally, in Ontario -- where Teshi and I both reside -- as well as in most if not all of the other Canadian provinces, an engineer with a degree is legally an "engineer in training." It takes four years of engineering work experience, recommendations from supervisors and colleagues, and an ethics exam before you can become licensed to pratice engineering professionally. In some disciplines, this actually matters a lot -- most piping designs, for instance, need to have a professional engineer's stamp.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
I work in one of the highest rated library schools in the country. I refer to the students (out of hearing) as undergraduates part 2, which is pretty true for most of them.

Now, some it is not true of, in particular the ones focusing on unusual specializations, and some of the coursework is useful, but it is nothing that couldn't be handily covered at an undergraduate level.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
El JT de Spang
Member
Member # 7742

 - posted      Profile for El JT de Spang   Email El JT de Spang         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by twinky:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
It's kind of hilarious that engineers can get a job with a bachelor's degree but librarians can't.
This is because -- and I mean this in complete sincerity -- engineers need to be better trained than librarians, and require more skill.
Incidentally, in Ontario -- where Teshi and I both reside -- as well as in most if not all of the other Canadian provinces, an engineer with a degree is legally an "engineer in training." It takes four years of engineering work experience, recommendations from supervisors and colleagues, and an ethics exam before you can become licensed to pratice engineering professionally. In some disciplines, this actually matters a lot -- most piping designs, for instance, need to have a professional engineer's stamp.
It's this way in the US, too. And, in point of fact, you're not allowed to legally present yourself as an engineer in any of your documents (letterhead, business cards, email signatures) unless you have a PE. This, of course, is never enforced.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
Hm, this argument is getting away from me. I didn't wish to make quite so broad a point as it is becoming. My approach to education is obviously based on a more even, socialized model.

As for Librarians...

quote:
Librarians used to learn on the job. About 20 years ago, that was the most common scenario. Now, for whatever combination of reasons, there are almost no jobs for librarians that do not require an MLS.
As far as I can tell, most librarians still learn on the job in England.

quote:
Now, some it is not true of, in particular the ones focusing on unusual specializations, and some of the coursework is useful, but it is nothing that couldn't be handily covered at an undergraduate level.
What is the coursework? I've never successfully figured it out.

I can see a local library requiring one person with formal education and a large one requiring several, but I'm afraid I don't see quite how libraries are improved by only employing people willing to take six years of school.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scifibum
Member
Member # 7625

 - posted      Profile for scifibum   Email scifibum         Edit/Delete Post 
If you were a library scientist you'd see.
Posts: 4287 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
You can find the course requirements for the MLS program here (and if you click one of them, you get links to the syllabus from current and past years): http://www.slis.indiana.edu/degrees/mls/degree_req.html

Now, the school doesn't just do MLS, but most masters students in the school are in the MLS program. A good number are in the MIS (information science) program, including several people doing both.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
adenam
Member
Member # 11902

 - posted      Profile for adenam           Edit/Delete Post 
I'm sorry I've been away so long. Suprisingly enough for my generation, I've been doing things that kept me away from a computer all day.

First off: rivka thank you so much, the male pronouns were really confusing me.

My education experience has been very similar to Minerva's description, even more so because I am the designated "smart one" in my family. Incidently, I didn't get into the Ivies I applied to, or the other top-tier school we really thought I would get into, so we really weren't prepared for this scenario. Which has of course made everything harder.

What we seem to be in agreement about now is that I (aka my parents) will pay to enroll at both schools and we'll reevaluate finances next year because so much is in flux right now. My dad's job is (always) unstable, because of the nature of his work, and we really won't know what's happenning in Israel until he goes later this year. We really need to know what those situations will be before anything is committed.

I've definately begun to consider much more the "real" cost of Brandeis. I really want to go what will be the best place for me not only right now, but also many years down the line, which I have just learned are not necesarily the same thing.

Posts: 399 | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
That's a difficult lesson. And one many students several years you senior have yet to grasp -- so good for you!

And good luck. [Smile]

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
We're all in agreement that paying your own undergrad tuition is a waste, right? I've been telling Skyler for years that, if she isn't getting free tuition (either through 1 big scholarship, or several together), she doesn't need to go to that particular college. Both her mother and I had totally free tuition for undergrad.

It also goes without saying that, except for maybe certain particular fields, paying tuition for grad school is a big waste as well, right? We're all on that boat? I refuse to get my master's. You can make just as much money without one, or more, it just requires some hustle and some brains. Granted, the hard sciences almost force you to get those advanced degrees to get ahead, like EE, physics, etc., but...that's about it.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
We're all in agreement that paying your own undergrad tuition is a waste, right?

[Roll Eyes] That's not what anyone said. Some students can get free rides (need-based, merit-based, or some combination thereof); most cannot. Doesn't make going to college a waste.

And if you don't want to get your master's -- don't. But don't think that doesn't eliminate certain job possibilities, because in almost every field that requires a bachelor's, a master's gets you more pay and access to job opportunities that a bachelor's does not. It's certainly true in my field, even though the majority of people in it have a bachelor's.

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Audeo
Member
Member # 5130

 - posted      Profile for Audeo   Email Audeo         Edit/Delete Post 
I just want to add my own experience. I spent two years at private college that really suited me and I loved it there. However halfway through my second year my mother became unexpectedly ill. She was unable to continue working and our family income fell by over 60%. I had several scholarships (over 30,000 a year), was taking out the maximum in federal loans, had a work study job and my parents were taking out additional PLUS loans to help fund the private college.

My parents didn't ask me to transfer, but I did, because it was clear that it was a hardship for them to continue to pay for it. When I got to my new state university I was dismayed. I had one class with over 200 students in it. The 300 level courses were teaching material covered in 100 level courses from my old school. I had left good friends behind, and was upset at the apparent decrease. Also at my previous school there were no graduate students which made lab work a lot easier for undergraduates to get involved in. Furthermore I was sure that my chances of getting into medical school were gone without a prestigious degree.

But some surprising things happened. First I met my husband and married him, which alone made it worthwhile. Second the bigger school had an excellent pre-med advisor who gave me more advice on medical school than I had even known existed. Third, having a bigger school means more diverse classes. I was able to take classes like parasitology that weren't offered at my other school because there would not have been enough student interest in the smaller student body. There were also some classes that had a deliberately limited class size to help students interact better with professors (most of these were upper level). I graduated on time (despite the transfer) so my scholarships covered most of the remainder of my schooling with subsidized loans covering the rest. I got into the top ranked medical school I really wanted, and I discovered in medical school that the wider variety of courses prepared me better for medical school than many of my classmates who chose smaller schools.

So I would agree that private schools have more intimate classes, and often have special areas of study that are really cool (I chose mine because it had a strong Classical Latin and Greek studies minor). But bigger schools have a lot to offer as well, including a more diverse student body, which means more student groups you get to choose from and get involved in, as well as better odds at making friends. Money is a factor that can help sway you, but don't discount the benefits of a big state school. It is a different type of education, but in the end the experience is what you make of it.

Posts: 349 | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
I know several B/B+ students in high school who have received multiple academic scholarships for school. Of course, a B/B+ student who didn't have other things to raise likelihood of entrance wouldn't be getting into a really good school, and if the B+ student isn't willing to take the time to seek out and apply for available scholarships, I'd say that's a pretty good indicator the student wouldn't do as well at the school or afterwards as someone who did.
Nonsense. I was a B+ student who got a full scholarship out of sheer luck and a selection process tilted towards test taking. I did fabulous in school.

Awareness of scholarships as a senior in high school - especially when everyone and their dog is saying that your grades aren't good enough - is NOT indicative how well you do in you chem class as a freshman in college.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
I did fabulously in school.

Fixed that for you.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Orincoro
Member
Member # 8854

 - posted      Profile for Orincoro   Email Orincoro         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by adenam:

First off: rivka thank you so much, the male pronouns were really confusing me.

For what it's worth, I had an instinct that you were female just from reading your post, so I stayed gender neutral- at least I think I did.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
Nope, you ruined it. I was gunning for a particular style evocative of an effusive stock character in a vaudeville.

I'll let you know if your "expertise" is wanted.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
You aren't a counterexample for what I said; you received your scholarship, so there's no way of knowing if you would have sought out other scholarships if you saw the price of your schooling would have been more than you could afford. Also, you seem to be overestimating what I mean by "pretty good indicator". If you were wondering who would be more likely to do better in school and beyond, between two B+ students who had the same sorts of grade, course, and extracurricular records, but one who had sought out three competitive scholarships, applied for them, and received them, and another who had none, are you saying you would still hold they were exactly equally likely to do well?

I'm not saying seeking out and getting competitive scholarships determine your life, but it definitely provides evidence of willingness to work for what one wants.

Of course, you also serve as yet another handy counterexample to what Teshi said.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
The scholarship I got has changed their requirements - they still award it to the top scorers, but you have to have a 3.8 GPA to be allowed to take the test. I wouldn't have gotten it again. Anecdotally, it is getting harder and harder to get flat out scholarships - aid has changed from grants and scholarships to loans, and that is a problem.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
Yeah, large scholarships are getting more difficult absent a particular GPA, though many schools still give (for instance) full scholarships to national merit semi-finalists. Of course, part of this trend is because it is becoming easier and easier to maintain a high GPA in many places.

There are still huge numbers (thousands upon thousands) of scholarships in the several hundred to a few thousand dollars range, though, that are significantly or entirely based on essay submissions.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
It's kind of crazy the amount of hoops you have to jump through to go to college in America. SATs, scholarship exams, scholarship essays, maintaining GPAs...

In Canada, you can work full time in the summer and part time during the year and mostly make it through without hugely gigantic debt, including living costs. No or few scholarships required.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
I agree with that, Teshi - you shouldn't have to go hunting for scholarships or go into huge debt or basically jump through all these crazy hoops. The cost of tuition compared to regular inflation is downright shameful, and it means that unless you do a thousand extra little things, college is an ornerous burden.

http://www.highereducation.org/reports/affordability_supplement/affordability_1.shtml

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,479993,00.html

quote:
Final prices will not be set until state budgets are finished in the coming months, but the trend is clear. In California, the governor's proposed budget would raise university fees around 10 percent. Florida's governor is trying to give several state schools more power to raise prices. And universities in both states plan to cut enrollment slots.

Other states could not wait until fall and have passed unusual midyear increases, including a whopping 14-percent increase in New York.


Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
You can generally do that in the US, too, if you attend a state school in-state. We just also have other options.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
No, you can't - you can't only work during the summer and earn enough to pay for a year of school. What job nets an 18-year-old $3,000 a month? That's at least $40,000 a year.

quote:
In the current academic year, the average list price for tuition and fees at four-year public colleges rose 6.4 percent to $6,585, according to the College Board.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
But that's not comparable. We don't have a radical distinction between "good schools" and "state schools". We have schools. You can do that at the top schools in the country or you can do that at the smaller, undergraduate ones.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
Many of our state schools -- such as the UC system (which I attended) and the SUNY system (that Binghamton is part of) are ranked as high as many (sometimes most, if looking at specific campuses, like UCLA) of the Ivies and other "really good schools". I would estimate that there are probably 5-10 tiers of four year undergrad colleges in the US, depending how ones breaks them down.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tresopax
Member
Member # 1063

 - posted      Profile for Tresopax           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Perhaps I was overzealous in proclaiming it entirely useless. There are a few jobs which will hire people without a second degree or college specialization/training. The government, for example, will hire a few undergrads who undergo six-month long standardized testing. It's notoriously difficult.
Are you talking about specifically how it works in Canada?

In the U.S., less than 10% of Americans have garduate degrees. The other 90% do have jobs, and a fairly large percentage of those more or less require bachelor's degrees. So, I'd say a bachelor's degree is definitely useful in career terms.

Also, on a more practical level, I found the actual coursework/learning required for the degree to be far more useful than the degree itself. I use skills I learned or refined in college literally every day in most activities I do. This may vary some by major, but I really think anyone who is measuring the worth of a undergraduate education based solely on its ability to land you a job is skipping over most of its value. The utility of the intangible aspects of the education is probably by itself, in many cases, worth more than the utility of the money required for tuition. (Although I'd agree that those intangibles are often found just as easily in inexpensive colleges as they are in expensive colleges.)

Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Teshi:
It's kind of crazy the amount of hoops you have to jump through to go to college in America. SATs, scholarship exams, scholarship essays, maintaining GPAs...

There are many schools that require none of that. Worst case, two-ish years of community college followed by (if your CC grades are good or better) two-ish years at a four year school.

Unfortunately, the availability of this option means too many students party and all but flunk out of HS, knowing the CCs will take them without a HS diploma. Fortunately, someone who made bad choices or had problems in HS has this route.

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by katharina:
Anecdotally, it is getting harder and harder to get flat out scholarships - aid has changed from grants and scholarships to loans, and that is a problem.

Not merely anecdotally. I don't feel like digging for them, but there are studies backing that up. I agree it's definitely a problem.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Tresopax:
The utility of the intangible aspects of the education is probably by itself, in many cases, worth more than the utility of the money required for tuition. (Although I'd agree that those intangibles are often found just as easily in inexpensive colleges as they are in expensive colleges.)

QFT
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
Teshi: Many of our state schools are good schools; quite a few are at or above the level of all but two or three schools in Canada.

katharina: First, notice Teshi mentioned working part time during the school year. Second, notice that summer for a college student is not two months long. For instance, IU's summer break is nine days shy of four months.

So, someone attending IU working full time the summer before and the three summers during, plus part time during the school year for ten hours a week, could expect to earn about $3668 for the summer plus $2161 during the school year. That's enough to keep the cost in loans to a reasonable level, or allow it to be wiped out by spending some time applying for scholarships. And I'm a bit bemused at the idea I see in Teshi's recent posts that students having to seek out and work for scholarships if they want to have more of their education paid for is a bad thing.

Note that in Canada the person who goes to college so cheaply still has a burden of additional costs to pay, it is just paid in taxes instead of loan payments. And, since student loan payments are allowed to scale with income and be stopped by very low income, the effects for reasonable amounts of loans aren't regressive. The US system is just making those payments more explicit. Acting like they aren't present in Canada isn't accurate.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, and I was assuming minimum wage (before the rate hike this July), and of course many people working during school work fifteen hours a week rather than ten hours. If a person was averaging $8/hour (typical in many school jobs, not that hard to get outside of school) and working fifteen hours during school, that would bring the total to $4480 for the summer and $3960 during the school year. That's tuition plus a good chunk of living expenses at most state schools.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
knowing the CCs will take them without a HS diploma
Whoa, really? Pretty sure you have to graduate here.

quote:
the person who goes to college so cheaply still has a burden of additional costs to pay, it is just paid in taxes instead of loan payments
This is sort of my point from the very beginning. Loan payments are extremely localized, heavy taxes upon entry into the workforce. To me, that seems cold. If everyone in the country is contributing slowly to cheaper education, it spreads out the burden. The burden is still there, of course, but it's easier to carry if everyone helps a little. I pay taxes now so other people can go to university or college-- and I'm glad to.

quote:
And I'm a bit bemused at the idea I see in Teshi's recent posts that students having to seek out and work for scholarships if they want to have more of their education paid for is a bad thing.
Different approaches to education, I guess. Public school is free, university is like running a marathon. Seems a little weird.

I don't think university education should be free, but I think it should be acceptably affordable without having to pimp out your essays.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ambyr
Member
Member # 7616

 - posted      Profile for ambyr           Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
Oh, and I was assuming minimum wage (before the rate hike this July), and of course many people working during school work fifteen hours a week rather than ten hours. If a person was averaging $8/hour (typical in many school jobs, not that hard to get outside of school) and working fifteen hours during school, that would bring the total to $4480 for the summer and $3960 during the school year. That's tuition plus a good chunk of living expenses at most state schools.

Seriously? If the $6500 annual average of tuition and fees is accurate, that's less than $2000 a year left over. And let's not forget textbooks--estimated at around $1000 annually, last I checked, even taking into account that most students shop used.

You think less than $1000 is a "good chunk" of rent, food, and bus fares?

[ETA: "The average room and board expense for the 2008-2009 school year at public colleges is $7,748"]

Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
katharina
Member
Member # 827

 - posted      Profile for katharina   Email katharina         Edit/Delete Post 
Right - $1000 will in no way pay for rent, food, and living expenses for an entire year.

Fifteen hours is a lot of time for a full-time student, and that's assuming they can get a job for $8 an hour but only work so few hours. Maybe in a city, but not in a tiny college town where there is an oversupply of poor 18-year-olds.

Then again, if they are in a city, $1000 is DEFINITELY not going to put more than a tiny dent in the cost of room and board for the entire year.

Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Right - $1000 will in no way pay for rent, food, and living expenses for an entire year.
Of course, and I didn't say it would. I said it would cover a good chunk. Even in many cities, that can easily be two or three months of rent for a college student living with other college students.

Not to mention that if we want to bring full cost of living into it, Teshi's assertion is quite false for universities in cities in Canada (edit: heck, most universities; I can't find one decent university in Canada that doesn't have cost of attendance over $10k), especially the best ones (such as the University of Toronto). The tuition and fees schedule can be covered, certainly, but the estimated cost of attending for someone not living at home is much higher.

quote:
Canadian citizens and permanent residents living away from home can anticipate costs in the $16,000 to $17,500 range.
http://www.prospective.utoronto.ca/money-matters.htm

In fact, since cost of living in the US is pretty comparable to cost of living in Canada for the most part, this means the only difference between typical Canadian cost of attendance and typical state school cost of attendance is about two thousand dollars (UoT charges nearly $5k for typical undergraduates in the coming year, and nearly $8k for some majors, like computer science: http://www.provost.utoronto.ca/link/students/fees10/dom_csc.html ).

Heck, that means it is cheaper to go to several of the better schools in the US for computer science than it is to go to UoT. For instance, the University of Washington (#6 in the US) charges under $7k for residents. And then there are fields like Engineering, where UoT will be charging just over $9k per year for entering undergraduates.

[ April 29, 2009, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: fugu13 ]

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinky
Member
Member # 693

 - posted      Profile for twinky   Email twinky         Edit/Delete Post 
I haven't been following the debate, I just happened to pop into the thread and saw your 11:19 post, fugu. Couple of comments.

Cost of living in Toronto is a lot higher than the cost of living in the locations of other Canadian universities. I don't think Toronto the most expensive place in Canada, but it's higher even than some other large Canadian cities. It's certainly much more expensive to attend U of T than it is to attend -- say -- Queen's, Dalhousie, or another well-regarded Canadian university that isn't in a city of 2-4 million people.

It costs quite a lot more than going to my own alma mater. And, of course, the CS and engineering programs at Waterloo are way better than those of U of T. [Wink]

Incidentally, $7k US is currently roughly equal to $9k CDN. The Canadian dollar dropped back to a more realistic and sustainable $0.80 US last fall.

Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
fugu13
Member
Member # 2859

 - posted      Profile for fugu13   Email fugu13         Edit/Delete Post 
Ah, true, mustn't forget exchange rates. In that case, it is currently more like four to six thousand dollars more a year in up-front costs to attend many good state universities than to attend a good Canadian university such as your own. And if we factor in the amounts that are paid in taxes (on both sides, since state schools are subsidized in the US), I suspect that narrows some. We're still hardly in the realm of dealbreaker differences in amounts of debt.

I note that most of the savings at your alma mater have to do with cost of living, not tuition (which is also higher for CS students). Also, given your school's cost projections, it looks like most students still can't cover it all with just full time work in the summer and part time work in the school year.

Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
King of Men
Member
Member # 6684

 - posted      Profile for King of Men   Email King of Men         Edit/Delete Post 
The Norwegian model is probably unrealistic for the American population, but it might be interesting as a basis for comparison. If you graduate from high school doing the general/economic/admin line - and I do mean graduate, lowest passing grade is sufficient - you can almost certainly get into a university. (For the popular majors, the ones with more applicants than positions, you do need high grades; but there are many open majors, which will take any warm body. On the flip side, these tend to be the tough ones like physics and math; the reason they take any warm body is that the first couple of terms weed out the ones who can't do the work.) Once you get in, you can get loans from the state, no interest until you graduate, and part of the loan is converted to grant upon graduation unless you lived with your parents during your studies. The loan will cover a reasonably frugal student lifestyle, unless of course you blow it all on beer the first month, which I have seen people do. The year I graduated they changed the rules so the loan was paid out in monthly installments instead of one big chunk at the start of the term.

Anyway. The other side of this is that the universities are state-owned, and charge only a token tuition, around 60 dollars a semester when I was there. So the loans only have to cover living expenses and books. On the gripping hand, there are only five universities in Norway, about one per million people. Some private colleges as well, but they are more like trade schools.

Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
twinky
Member
Member # 693

 - posted      Profile for twinky   Email twinky         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by fugu13:
I note that most of the savings at your alma mater have to do with cost of living, not tuition (which is also higher for CS students). Also, given your school's cost projections, it looks like most students still can't cover it all with just full time work in the summer and part time work in the school year.

Note that all engineering degree programs at UW are co-op programs that alternate four-month school terms with four-month paid work term internships. Quite a number of other degree programs have co-op options or requirements as well. I believe this was UW's main innovation when it got started as an engineering school in the mid-20th century.

In any case, with only my tuition being covered (by my parents, not by scholarship), I was able to earn enough money on my work terms to live on in my school terms, and thereby graduate with no debt. I don't know what the average debt load of a UW engineering grad is, although I don't personally know anyone who accrued more than $10k.

In the aggregate, though, student debt is absolutely a problem here in Canada, and it's one reason that our left-of-centre New Democratic Party consistently pushes for increasing government funding for postsecondary education at both the provincial and federal levels.

Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Teshi
Member
Member # 5024

 - posted      Profile for Teshi   Email Teshi         Edit/Delete Post 
Oh, I didn't mean cover it all, I meant that they can cover a lot of it, plus aid like OSAP, and graduate with non-crippling debt.

If U of T is comparable to a cheaper US university, consider this: it's considered one of the top universities in the world, generally speaking.

Let me actually go to my invoice, for a Bachelor of Arts:

I paid $452/half-year class, which roughly added up to $5,000, including other fees, for five classes. Residence, including food for the School Year, was also $5,000. So far that's $10,000. I see a couple hundred for books and supplies, depending on the courses and how second hand you are. That still doesn't approach $16,000.

If I work full time in a reasonably lucrative student employment job at say $13/h for eight hours a day, five days a week for three months, that's $6240 and more than $600/month 8-month rent taken care of.

I work part time (15 hrs, let's say-- two shifts a week) for eight months at my lower paying min. wage (9.50) job that's $4560 and I top $10,000.

This is before scholarships, in Toronto rent and paying Toronto B.A. fees.

Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
Bachelor's Degree Recipients Continue to Outearn Others, U.S. Census Reports

Good news/bad news in California

[ May 01, 2009, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: rivka ]

Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tatiana
Member
Member # 6776

 - posted      Profile for Tatiana   Email Tatiana         Edit/Delete Post 
rivka, your second link isn't working for me, for reasons I can't figure out. It looks like a good url when I mouse over it, but when I click it I get a server error as though it started with www.hatrack... instead of the url shown when I mouse over it. Any clue why?
Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
steven
Member
Member # 8099

 - posted      Profile for steven   Email steven         Edit/Delete Post 
"That's not what anyone said. Some students can get free rides (need-based, merit-based, or some combination thereof); most cannot. Doesn't make going to college a waste."

Yes, I know that's not what anyone said. I was asking, hence my use of a question mark.

I personally feel that tuition (plus the ridiculous cost-of-living in the US) have, together, gotten so far out of hand that it's just not smart to pay more than maybe 25% of your own tuition. I see not getting the great majority of your tuition paid (through scholarships/grants) as basically society saying "no, we don't need you working in that field."

Seriously, either find a field that people will pay for you to go to school in, or don't bother with school. I'm not sure I'd make many exceptions for that, except maybe some trade schools.

Posts: 3354 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
rivka
Member
Member # 4859

 - posted      Profile for rivka   Email rivka         Edit/Delete Post 
Tatiana, not sure. Try it now?
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
scholarette
Member
Member # 11540

 - posted      Profile for scholarette           Edit/Delete Post 
The link worked for me. [Smile]
Posts: 2223 | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Rabbit
Member
Member # 671

 - posted      Profile for The Rabbit   Email The Rabbit         Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Since most students are only accepted by a handful of schools, it seems the relevant question is less "what is the cheapest school that provides a quality education?" than "which of the schools to which I've been admitted will provide the best education?"
It's a bit belated, but I need to say that I find this a specious argument. People only get accepted to a handful of schools because they only apply to a handful of schools. With few exceptions, private schools have more stringent admissions criteria than comparable public schools. I've never heard of a student who got admission to a good private College who could not have been accepted in to a top tier public school. The only possible exceptions might be "legacy" children who are guaranteed a spot in some private schools from birth regardless of their performance.

Cost should come into consideration when you are applying to schools and not just after you've been admitted.

[ May 01, 2009, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: The Rabbit ]

Posts: 12591 | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 4 pages: 1  2  3  4   

   Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Hatrack River Home Page

Copyright © 2008 Hatrack River Enterprises Inc. All rights reserved.
Reproduction in whole or in part without permission is prohibited.


Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.2