(1) to require the owner or occupier of premises to permit entry into and investigation of the premises; (2) to close, direct, and compel the evacuation of, or to decontaminate or cause to be decontaminated any building or facility, and to allow the reopening of the building or facility when the danger has ended; (3) to decontaminate or cause to be decontaminated, or to destroy any material; (4) to restrict or prohibit assemblages of persons; (5) to require a health care facility to provide services or the use of its facility, or to transfer the management and supervision of the health care facility to the department or to a local public health authority; (6) to control ingress to and egress from any stricken or threatened public area, and the movement of persons and materials within the area; (7) to adopt and enforce measures to provide for the safe disposal of infectious waste and human remains, provided that religious, cultural, family, and individual beliefs of the deceased person shall be followed to the extent possible when disposing of human remains, whenever that may be done without endangering the public health; (8) to procure, take immediate possession from any source, store, or distribute any anti-toxins, serums, vaccines, immunizing agents, antibiotics, and other pharmaceutical agents or medical supplies located within the commonwealth as may be necessary to respond to the emergency; (9) to require in-state health care providers to assist in the performance of vaccination, treatment, examination, or testing of any individual as a condition of licensure, authorization, or the ability to continue to function as a health care provider in the commonwealth; (10) to waive the commonwealth’s licensing requirements for health care professionals with a valid license from another state in the United States or whose professional training would otherwise qualify them for an appropriate professional license in the commonwealth; (11) to allow for the dispensing of controlled substances by appropriate personnel consistent with federal statutes as necessary for the prevention or treatment of illness; (12) to authorize the chief medical examiner to appoint and prescribe the duties of such emergency assistant medical examiners as may be required for the proper performance of the duties of the office; (13) to collect specimens and perform tests on any animal, living or deceased; (14) to exercise authority under sections 95 and 96 of chapter 111; (15) to care for any emerging mental health or crisis counseling needs that individuals may exhibit, with the consent of the individuals.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
I would have no problem with these rules in a period of declared pandemic. In fact, I would pretty much expect them. It would be bafflingly stupid, in the middle of a pandemic, for people to protest the loss of their freedoms by, say, gathering together in large groups and sneezing on each other.
The issue is the same issue I perceive when other "special case" states apply, like "wartime" or "emergency:" when does that state get declared, under what criteria is it declared, and how is that status reviewed?
How would you better protect citizens' rights in the event of an actual pandemic, mal?
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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A true pandemic I would agree, there is a case for martial law even in a free society. Problem is they are already calling H1N1 a pandemic and it is mild in comparison to a regular flu. It has a lower death rate than the annual flu but look at schools quarantining students. Crisis is a powerful tool. A tool our current set of leaders like to use. - too big to fail - we have a crisis in healthcare - the auto industry will bring down the entire economy - carbon is going to destroy the planet etc.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
It is important to realize that pandemic refers to prevalence, not deadliness. H1N1 is an unmistakable pandemic.
The big issues for a pandemic are when either the deadliness is not known for sure (before it becomes a pandemic, but when it is known to be virulent), or when it is known (and known to be high).
Given the form of declaration required, I am not terribly worried by such a bill. They're no worse than what the government can do in the case of a natural disaster, and several of the powers would be absolutely essential to quick response.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
I hope you are right and you certainly have more faith in government than I do. I hope the pattern doesn't continue:
Bailout the banks or we're headed to a depression.
Bailout the auto industry or American manufacturing is history.
Pass healthcare now, before you go on recess, it's a crisis. (luckilly the debate continues)
The seas are going to rise, the planet is going to roast, we'll have unprecidented hurricanes and the polar bears are dying, ...we need cap and trade.
The American people have swallowed many bitter pills in the name of crisis.....I hope the pattern doesn't continue.
I'm waiting for a right wing nut job McVeigh type to do something stupid....there will be quick 2nd ammendment crisis legislation if/when it happens.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
We've been under republican leadership for so long it's like I've forgotten what right wing conspiracy theories sound like. It's really done a number on my faith in this country and hope for the future.
What a double edged sword Obama's presidency has turned out to be.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Whatever. Sounds like not only a good plan, but a necessary one.
BTW, Mal...you don't know anything about the flu's either.
Compared to the Patriot Act, Gitmo, and Ashcroft's bullshit, this is tame and will not lead to half as many abuses. It is also harder to maintain for any length of time, and will actually WORK....in the case of a pandemic it would protect us.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Every year in the United States, on average:
5% to 20% of the population gets the flu; more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu-related complications; and about 36,000 people die from flu-related causes. (normal flu) http://www.cdc.gov/flu/keyfacts.htm
WHO released confirmed worldwide H1N1 death is nearing 2500 since emergence and CDC "(CDC) noted that although this was a very serious virus, cases worldwide were usually mild, and most hospitalizations and deaths had been of persons that also had underlying conditions such as asthma, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, or a weakened immune system."
Lets do the math: Worldwide deaths in 5 months 2500 US Deaths per year for normal flu 36,000
Doesn't sound too scary to me. My entire family is having flu-like symptoms right now but I'm still just watching their temps, etc. 20% of one school in my home town has their kids home with flu-like symptoms. They aren't seriously ill or dying, just scared. Others will freak out and overwhelm the healthcare system, the worst thing that could happen. An overwhelmed system would be good for passing health care legislation though.....there's my right wing conspiracy theory side again.
posted
malanthrop: those are only the confirmed deaths from H1N1. The real deaths are definitely higher, as many countries are not testing enough.
Additionally, flu deaths are very seasonal, and this strain is more contagious than the normal flu strains we get. Expect a much worse than normal flu season, and don't be surprised if the deaths are twice or more. The real danger is if those needing hospitalization exceed capacity. Anywhere that happens, the death rate will shoot up.
Something to panic about, no. Something to prepare for rigorously, yes.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: An overwhelmed system would be good for passing health care legislation though.....there's my right wing conspiracy theory side again.
Do you even have another side? This is all you do on this forum, is take every opportunity to go off the rails about everything from health care to global warming with the most profoundly misinformed and paranoid mindset I can fathom.
Posts: 805 | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Then we should stick to confirmed US statistics. Just over 100 deaths in the US in 5 months. A normal year with a normal flu is 36k average per year. Are you suggesting 100 between April and Sep is high for the normal flu? Of 36,000 per year 100 deaths during this period is high? Perhaps we should consider ourselves fortunate to build up an immunity to a virulent yet mild flu.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
The worst thing about this is the most of the recent deaths are NOT in just in the old, young, and already immuno-compromised....the fatality rate in young, healthy adults is alarming. Otherwise healthy people shouldn't die of the flu.
Define Pandemic, since you seem to like quoting (without comprehention) from web sites. Do they vary in mortality rates?
For the record, I spent 2-3 years working at USAMRIID working on vaccinations, and am currently in nursing school. I know, beyond any doubt, that I know more about this than you.
And if you'd like to spout crap about that, feel free to look up Tatiana's bird flu thread....I am hardly a proponent of scare tactics, nor have I been overly concerned about this flu.
There is a difference between preparing for a worst-case situation and declaring you are already in one. So far, mutations have NOT happened, panic has NOT begun, and REASONABLE precautions are being prepared.
Keep in mind that you are assuming that this flu REPLACES the others. In reality, rather than bullcrap land, we have to worry about it weakening otherwise healthy people, making them MORE susceptible to the normal flu, and raising IT'S mortality rate as well. Even if it never mutates into something more lethal.... and I doubt it will....it has already had a strong influence on our national health care situation.
We, as a vocation, have been told to expect a worse than normal flu season. I hope they are wrong, but by God I think I'll plan as if they aren't, just in case.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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I'm still waiting for the death reports in my City....20% of the elementary school parents are keeping their kids home....and you suggest I'm the paranoid one?
I quoted the CDC's website with: "although this was a very serious virus, cases worldwide were usually mild, and most hospitalizations and deaths had been of persons that also had underlying conditions such as asthma, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, or a weakened immune system."
Unless of course you believe the CDC is lying about how mild it is. Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote: Human H5N1 Cases (WHO) has reported human cases of avian influenza A (H5N1) in Asia, Africa, the Pacific, Europe and the Near East. Indonesia and Vietnam have reported the highest number of H5N1 cases to date. Overall mortality in reported H5N1 cases is approximately 60%. The majority of cases have occurred among children and adults aged less than 40 years old. Mortality was highest in cases aged 10-19 years old.
Next time educate yourself. I don't have time to address most of the areas you demonstrate a lack of knowledge about.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Are we switching the conversation from Swine Flu (H1N1) to Avian Flu (H5N1)? They always have these over there...From your link : "The highly pathogenic avian influenza A (H5N1) epizootic (ANIMAL OUTBREAK) in Asia, Europe, the Near East, and Africa is not expected to diminish significantly in the short term." and "Studies have documented the most significant risk factors for human H5N1 infection to be direct contact with sick or dead poultry or wild birds, or visiting a live poultry market"
More chickens will be fed into wood chippers in China.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Since the vast majority of deaths are in South America why hasn't the government taken serious steps to ensure all immigrants crossing the border are screened?
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Cumulative Number of Confirmed Human Cases of Avian Influenza A/(H5N1) Reported to WHO 440 cases and 262 deaths WORLD WIDE in SIX YEARS. I'm glad we live in a country where our chickens are already butchered and packaged. Take a look at the list of countries as well. Places where people live in huts with their animals. (2006 was the peak year @ 118 deaths, 12 so far this year: 4 in each China, Egypt and Indonesia)
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Yeah, kwea, you're mixing viruses. H5N1 is more deadly, but not anywhere near a pandemic (in humans, of course; a few isolated likely human-human transmission cases, but nothing more), and H1N1 is less deadly, but very much a pandemic. It does appear to infect the young disproportionately, but isn't very deadly in anyone who isn't already in need of medical care.
malanthrop: there's no reason to screen immigrants. H1N1 is everywhere. That's what a pandemic at the stage it is at means -- something that has or will penetrate every part of the globe that is not completely and utterly isolated (that is, a few people in Antarctica if they didn't come home after short stays, and some rarely contacted tribes in South America and Africa). Screening immigrants will have no preventative effect. (edit: or are you referring to H5N1? In that case, there's no point in costing the US trillions of dollars -- stopping immigrants is pointless; it is the short term travelers that spread disease; every sort of travel would have to be stopped -- when there hasn't been a variant capable of sustained human-human transmission, and we have no idea where such a variant will emerge).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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They stopped testing for H1N1 several months back at my hospital. I was told that it's because basically anyone with flu symptoms in the summer tested positive for H1N1 so there was no use continuing to test.
The expectation is that the health care system is going to be overburdened this winter due to employees being sick as well as more ER visits and likely ICU stays for complicated flu.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
The vast majority of H1N1 deaths worldwide have been in South America. Besides H1N1, Chagis Disease, AB Resistant TB and Meningitis, Hepatitis, unchecked/unscreened immigration poses a serious health risk to our country. We would be lucky if this were the most serious problem ...http://www.bugclinic.com/bedbug.htm If we have a healthcare crisis due to a serious worldwide pandemic, will our border states do anything to prevent illegal crossings in search of our free emergency room care? I've heard discussion of quarantining Americans in their homes but has anyone considered the immediate deployment of troops to quarantine the country. If bugs are coming in all the windows, it doesn't do any good to hide in a closet. With scant and stretched resources, citizens should come first. Fear is a powerful tool...anyone remembers SARS or West Nile Virus?
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:If we have a healthcare crisis due to a serious worldwide pandemic, will our border states do anything to prevent illegal crossings in search of our free emergency room care? I've heard discussion of quarantining Americans in their homes but has anyone considered the immediate deployment of troops to quarantine the country. If bugs are coming in all the windows, it doesn't do me any good to hide in the bathroom. With scant and stretched resources, citizens should come first.
This is all excellent talk completely sidestepping the point that your plan won't work. H1N1 would still get in even if through some magic we stood soldiers shoulder to soldier on the Mexican border.
But by all means, continue to ignore that niggling little flaw with your idea and spout off far right talking points. You've got a well-established schtick to keep up, after all.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Indeed, it doesn't need to "get in". H1N1 is already in every city and town in the United States.
Further, immigration isn't the carrier effect. It is tourism and business trips that carry it, from US citizens coming and going as much as foreign nationals visiting. Immigration is so slow and small-scale as to be completely irrelevant on the time scale of flu-like diseases.
Most of the other things you mention are also endemic in the United States, and changing border policies would have, again, absolutely no effect.
You're letting your own prejudices against foreigners drive your desired reactions to the diseases. At least many of the measures people are taking against H1N1 will do something, even if they're overreactions (I note that the bill is not intended for use against the H1N1 epidemic, for the most part; many of the provisions are irrelevant, now. Things like bringing in medical practitioners from other areas could be extremely helpful, though).
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Crisis is a powerful tool. A tool our current set of leaders like to use. - too big to fail - we have a crisis in healthcare - the auto industry will bring down the entire economy - carbon is going to destroy the planet etc.
I very much prefer these (which could very well be true) to the fake crises that our previous administration used. You remember those, right? The "mushroom cloud, WMD, imminent threat, nuclear weapons...". You know, the ones that cost countless lives and were proved wrong.
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Yes it would already be here but you are sidestepping the inevitability of stretched medical resources. I'm sure if high death rates were occuring, the folks in Tijauna and other border towns would happily sit there and rely on the wonderful socialized medical system in Mexico. Since we are discussing worst case/martial law scenario's in which most of you agree Citizen's rights could/should be suspended, why are you defending people who have no right whatsoever to be in this country? In this martial law scenario with lines around the block at hospitals, I would suggest verifying citizenship and putting Americans at the front of the line....I know, very racist idea.
I brought up other points besides H1N1. Legal immigrants ARE screened, and for good reason. Third world nations have very high rates of disease, diseases that pose a serious threat to our nation. Call me a right wing racist if you like but I would contend that crimes and disease brought in by illegal aliens have killed far more people than the attackers of 911. I was in a military uniform at the air port and had to take off my boots to be screened for shoe bombs. A soldier or American Citizen for that matter has never brought a shoe bomb onto a plane but thousands of Americans are sickened by diseases brought in by unscreened immigrants every year.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Crisis is a powerful tool. A tool our current set of leaders like to use. - too big to fail - we have a crisis in healthcare - the auto industry will bring down the entire economy - carbon is going to destroy the planet etc.
I very much prefer these (which could very well be true) to the fake crises that our previous administration used. You remember those, right? The "mushroom cloud, WMD, imminent threat, nuclear weapons...". You know, the ones that cost countless lives and were proved wrong.
Absolutely agree in regards to previous administration. Fear can bring people to support things they otherwise never would...invading Iraq is a great example of a scared people supporting something in a crisis situation. Yeah and Obama justifies his 2 Trillion defecit with Bush's 500 Billion dollar one....are we third graders? We're still taking our shoes off at the air port, will our shoe wearing rights ever be restored. Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Nice slide from CDC... scary really. They use "foreign born" as a description; some states over 80% of cases are "foreign born". Funny, legal immigrants are screened so foreign born must be a euphamism for illegal.
Most states >50% of the cases are among people who are foreign born. Who do you think gave the disease to the native born 50% of all cases?
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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Hey, mal, I actually wanted to thank you for toning it down a bit since you came back. When you last left, I was worried that you wouldn't fit in; I greatly prefer this new version. You're spending a lot more time being civil (and even ignoring personal attacks), and I just wanted you to know that I noticed and appreciated it.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Except that while Mexico is the largest source of TB case victims, people from the Philippines, India, and Vietnam combined are the source of even more (total, not per capita), and people from those places almost all go through border control. Indeed, note that the report doesn't break out immigrants vs tourists or people here for the short term.
So no, preventing people from crossing the borders illegally wouldn't dent the TB rates by all that much. Especially if you also take into account that some of the TB rate is driven by socioeconomic factors, not place of origin.
And yes, it is morally problematic to say someone deserves more to die from a disease because of where they are from. Especially, though by no means exclusively, if they are here with our permission.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
TB is spread human to human so the only socioeconomic factor would be similarly located housing or shopping areas. TB can't be argued like obesity in the poor due to poor quality cheap food.
You are correct the CDC only categorizes foreign born as an entire group, wether they are tourists, legal immigrants or illegal immigrants is not defined. It's very unlikely a tourist would be a large component of those seeking treatment, unless of course he/she came here for that purpose. TB is a very long term illness and doesn't just pop up during holiday.
TB is huge in prisons accross the US and considering in some states the prison population is 50% illegal alien, that could be correlated.
I said in a previous thread, when my doctor screened my two year old asking, "Has your son been exposed to illegal aliens or nursing care facilities" I replied, "We've been to Wal Mart". He didn't find it very funny.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:TB is spread human to human so the only socioeconomic factor would be similarly located housing or shopping areas. TB can't be argued like obesity in the poor due to poor quality cheap food.
You should apply a little more logic, or learn a little more before you assert things that aren't true. While TB is spread person to person, its ability to spread depends heavily on how healthy the person it is potentially spreading to is, the density of people in a particular place (especially living places), whether or not the person experiencing symptoms went in for treatment (and thus was caught early, before infecting more people), and various other things all closely linked to socioeconomic factors.
And note that short term stays would include things like exchange programs, business visits lasting more than a few days, and other periods during which TB could easily manifest itself. And since the period from infection to symptoms can be quite long, and the symptoms can come on very rapidly once they begin, it doesn't take a very long stay for TB onset to require treatment when in the US.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
True, a poor working class American working alongside illegal immigrants and living in cramped quarters with his/her family could easilly catch TB and bring it home to the entire family.
Certainly many cases of TB are caught by our schools screening process. There was a TB scare at my daughter's school. Coincidentally, the one who tested positive resulting in the entire school being retested was a kid in the English as a Second Language Program. Coincidence? You don't need to be a citizen to enroll in school but you do need shots and screenings. Illegal alien kids are most certainly screened and return the results to their entire families so they too can be taken care of at US expense.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
We should all hope and pray that H5N1 never becomes virulent human to human, that would be serious. I'd head for the mountains.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
The funny thing is that the "Never let a crisis go to waste" line that's attributed to Rahm Emmanuel and Obama's administration is actually a good deal older than that.
I know I'd heard it used in a business context prior to last year - basically meaning at the time "we're being forced to do things differently, so let's take this as an opportunity to do things right rather than just reacting to the change".
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Am I the only one picking up the following argument from Mal...
"The Democrats are using H1N1 to scare us citizens into giving up our rights. That is wrong. It should be used to scare us into massive ethnic cleansing of all immigrants--er--illegal immigrants."
Or...
The flu is all their fault, so once they are "gone" we'll be safe. Don't worry about short term protective measures--hunt down the illegals, lock up our border with an iron wall, and keep ourselves pure and we'll be healthy.
or
Health Care Reform is simple--get rid of the aliens and we'll all be healthy.
Posts: 1941 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: True, a poor working class American working alongside illegal immigrants and living in cramped quarters with his/her family could easilly catch TB and bring it home to the entire family.
I love how this is at once populist, snobbish, racist, weirdly antiquarian, and misspelled all at the same time.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: We should all hope and pray that H5N1 never becomes virulent human to human, that would be serious. I'd head for the mountains.
THAT is something we can both agree on. Fortunately, it isn't likely.
Sorry about the other night, I was having a bad day, and got the two mixed up because of a previous thread. LOL Some of my points still carry, but not the ones about mortality rates. I had just had an update on both at school, and combigned with thinking about the bird flu thread I got mixed up.
Of course, since I was looking up the wrong one at first, all MY sources said something different. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Illegal immigrants have little to nothing to do wiht the spread of this, BTW, as it has spread rapidly though many countries. The fact is that it is so easy to catch that it doesn't need them as reservoir.
And you should look at some of the history of TB as well as the medical data about it's rate of contagion and it's resident populations before making such statements. It would save a lot of time, and would be enlightening. It has more to do with socioecomonic status, and always has, then almost any other factor.
Most of the people we see with TB in the hospitals aren't illegals, but they are dirt poor.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
Inregard to H1N1: Seasonal flu causes bronchitis and other upper respiratory disease. But Zaki, the chief infectious disease pathologist at CDC, said the new virus had burrowed into the lungs of the 90 or so people he examined after they died, and they had huge amounts of the virus in their blood. "This is almost exactly what we see with avian flu," Zaki said. "This looks like avian flu on steroids." Dr. Yoshi Kawaoka of the University of Wisconsin said tests in monkeys showed the virus lives and replicates 1,000-fold better in the lungs than does seasonal flu. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Which is why folks at outfits like CDC are biting their knuckles over the upcoming flu season.
During the summer, high turnover of air and youngsters being out of school means low viral-loading within most folks environment. Kids being in school means high-density contact, and cool weather tends to mean low air turnover to keep the warmth in.
Thing about any given type of virus is that it lives within a "mutation space".
In a natural environment, high infectivity and rapid onset combined with high morbidity guarantees that the mutation space remains small. ie Folks infected with the most deadly forms of the virus die before that mutation can spread from their own particular pocket communtity to outside communities. If nothing else, outsiders shun contact with infected communities.
Unfortunately, most of us do not live in anything that could be described as a natural environment. Kids are required to go to high-density mass meetings, ie schools. And if they need to make money to live, adults are required to go to work, slightly less dense mass meetings. Even with savings sufficient to avoid work, one must go shopping for necessities. And large stores requiring large customer-bases have essentially killed off most of the "mom&pop" stores which require only a small pocket-community to support them.
These mass meetings create much larger "pockets" of infection, a much larger mutation space in which the most deadly forms of a virus can survive long enough to infect yet another person. Add cheap&easy high-speed transit between these MUCH larger pocket-communities, and ya got a perfect storm of conditions for a really NASTY pandemic to occur.
So far we have been lucky. H5N1 has had rapid onset (ie infections are quickly diagnosed) and high morbidity (victims are rapidly disabled from making a large number of contacts with other folks, often through death) combined with low infectivity. H1N1 has so far had high infectivity (considering we haven't been jam-packed / in the flu season) combined with rapid onset (infections are rapidly recognised, and victims either self-isolate or are isolated quickly from making normal contact with the general community) with only a few folks having either low-resistance to milder forms of the virus or contact with a particularly deadly form of the virus.
But it has been luck. Better to have laws in place to allow the best methods of closing pockets of infection before a highly infective, slow-onset (ie long period of being a carrier/tranmitter before symptoms appear), deadly disease runs rampant. Cuz once a deadly pandemic starts spreading, there ain't enough time for good*politics to occur. Panic decisions are rarely the best decisions.
* ie Careful considerations of the facts before passing the least-harmful laws to deal with a bad situation.
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
We should hope that one person doesn't catch H1n1 and H5N1 and create the killer of us all...or at least 60%.
The environmentalists concerned about human population shoould cheer while half of us die,...at least until the environmentalist who's concerned starts to get sick. Still waiting for a virus to be added to the endangered species list. No one complains about man wiping out the species of small pox. Poor virus, it only hindered humans and we drove it to extinction. Doesn't it have a natural right to live? How could the needs of humanity ever justify the extinction of an entire species?
Life is relative...you can draw your line wherever you want. That line is down to a two inch fish in 2009.
posted
I wont lie, never read it. I listened to it on CD while transferring from one duty station to another, during a 1500 mile car drive.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
It's a good book, mostly for it's concepts. But like anything, take them too seriously or too far and the result is almost as bad.
The hospital I was interning at was giving their employees the flu shot today. I was I was a paid employee rather than interning as an LPN student, it would have been free. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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