posted
*sigh* Why do people insist on playing right into her narrative?
This is pretty much the same as having an index card with points to cover on it - that is, not a big deal. I think the choice to write it on her hand was a conscious plot to get people to make fun of her for it.
Is it so hard to stop playing the disdainful snobs that look for any excuse, no matter how small, to look down on Sarah Palin and the people she presents herself as representing? Because that's the source of her power.
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I'm actually more in the Republican camp than Democratic, having volunteered for several campaigns in a significant capacity, and she's certainly doing a good job of alienating me! Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Yeah, I'm by no means a Palin fan, but people have been making an absurdly large deal about this story.
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Seriously? I mean, if Obama put all of his teleprompter stuff on his skin, he'd have to strip naked to give a talk.
She jotted down the points she wanted to make sure she didn't miss. No content -- not like Obama, who apparently needs everything in glowing letters in front of his face -- but just which points she wanted to be sure she addressed.
I'm not a big fan of Palin. Experience-wise, she's almost as bad as Obama. And I'm opposed to almost as many of her policies as I am of Obama's. But some of the lame-ass criticisms people have been throwing at her are exactly the kind of thing that's going to put her into the White House. Because there are a lot of people in this country who can see the dishonesty of slamming someone for speaking in a folksy way. My cousin Scott slammed her on Facebook the other day by saming, "And who names a kid Trig?" That's about the level most people are on when they go after her.
She isn't an ideal candidate, but I'd take her over the robot-in-chief any day. And in another few years, that's probably what most Americans are going to say as well.
Posts: 12266 | Registered: Jul 2005
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Well, two things, mostly geared towards Lisa:
1. While I agree that Obama has taken the prompter thing to new lengths in some fairly amusing instances, the guy has proven six ways from Sunday that he can speak extemporaneously very, very well. Perhaps the best example just happened a week ago when he was at the House GOP retreat, and he spoke without notes or a prompter, and methodically picked apart most every criticism lobbed at him.
2. And that's precisely the problem with saying "well they're both the same!" because Obama unscripted sounds pretty impressive, and evidence thus far shows that Palin unscripted is an abysmal failure. People can't excuse her actions because Obama has had aides in the past, not when the gulf between them appears so large.
Writing notes on her hand suggests to me that she's trying to pretend that she's smarter than she is because she's afraid of what people would say if she DID use note cards. But maybe she's playing a more devious game than that, as Squicky is suggesting. I'd never vote for her in a million years anyway, so it's really not important what I think of her, but I think this is interesting. It's not something I would automatically criticize her for, but in concert with other things, I might find grounds for it.
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If Pres. Obama really pisses all of America in the next two years and Palin takes the 2012 election.... well english is my first language so living in the U.K. wont be so bad.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: I think the fact that she's taking the tea party crowd seriously is more important.
But yeah. President Palin.
Man.
If Americans elect a Palin, even I'd start feeling sorry for you guys
I'm actually interested in A Tea Party that while initially mostly disgruntled Republicans, shrugs off The Republican Party, and becomes a new beast. It may not be a party I can necessarily agree with, but new parties present rare opportunities for the political climate to change in dramatic ways.
I wouldn't want The Tea Party to go the way of the Green Party but in this case they mostly siphon votes away from Republicans. I want them to start pushing in other directions which attract lots of moderates from both parties.
Alot of those Tea Party folks listen to Glenn Beck, and as of late, he has been very keen on instructing them not to shill for the Republicans. I think it would be a mistake to just laugh at this development, there's a very real chance it might actually go somewhere, and have a strong influence on American politics.
---
I pretty much agree that this whole hullabaloo about Palin writing on her hands is a waste of time and no good will ever come of it.
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*shrug* What's her narrative and what does it matter if I play into it or not?
BlackBlade: I have no objection to a multi-party system (as opposed to two party). In fact, I prefer it.
But I think it would be too much to hope for this Tea Party to really accomplish anything to that end.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: If Pres. Obama really pisses all of America in the next two years and Palin takes the 2012 election.... well english is my first language so living in the U.K. wont be so bad.
Don't embarrass yourself. I'm so tired of all the lefties who say "If Bush wins, I'm moving to another country. If Palin wins, I'm moving to another country." No one ever does it; it's just silly rhetoric.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: BlackBlade: I have no objection to a multi-party system (as opposed to two party). In fact, I prefer it.
But I think it would be too much to hope for this Tea Party to really accomplish anything to that end.
Only in my wildest dreams does this development create a 3+ party system. But even when a party collapses that leaves a huge vacuum that can be filled with many things, both good and bad. When a party is filled up with pus and bile, you can't do much worse.
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I wouldn't leave. If by some freakish turn of events she does get elected, I plan to sit right here and enjoy the show.
I'm at the point where I really think the only way to fix America is the break it first. The Republicans and Democrats are Thelma and Louise at this point. They're going to drive us right off a cliff, together. The only way to break the deadlock is for them both to wise up at the same time, or for the country to actually fall apart, in such a way that politics isn't an option, and fixing the problems becomes such a necessity that they have no other choice.
I think electing Palin will send us further in that direction. And if we have to screw with the country for a couple years to learn a hard lesson, then fine. America is a country that continually forgets past mistakes and must commit them again to relearn from them. I guess it's just that time again.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug* What's her narrative and what does it matter if I play into it or not?
That the big, mean, elitist liberals are picking on her - and by extension, looking down on all the "regular" folks.
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quote:Originally posted by AchillesHeel: If Pres. Obama really pisses all of America in the next two years and Palin takes the 2012 election.... well english is my first language so living in the U.K. wont be so bad.
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: BlackBlade: I have no objection to a multi-party system (as opposed to two party). In fact, I prefer it.
But I think it would be too much to hope for this Tea Party to really accomplish anything to that end.
Only in my wildest dreams does this development create a 3+ party system. But even when a party collapses that leaves a huge vacuum that can be filled with many things, both good and bad. When a party is filled up with pus and bile, you can't do much worse.
Best case scenario, it fizzles. More likely, it succeeds in dragging the Republican party even further to the right, snuffing out what little breathing space moderates in the Republican party have to get elected. Unlikely, it creates a vibrant third party movement.
The "vibrant" part is where the problem is. The Tea Party constituency is all over the place, but they're by and large an attack from the right wing of the Republican party. I think when it comes to supporting candidates, they'll very much be a conservative version of the green party. I don't know if it will be enough to siphon off enough votes to make a difference, but I don't see them becoming a national third party. The only way I could see that happening is if they ran Sarah Palin as a third party candidate, and independents bolt the party for the Democrats rather than supporting a Republican candidate they know won't go anywhere. If they were smart, they'd start pushing to elect senators in some of the less populated states where their message plays better and they can win for less money.
But I don't think they're nearly that coordinated yet.
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: ... America is a country that continually forgets past mistakes and must commit them again to relearn from them. I guess it's just that time again.
It sounds like you and Palin have something in common, you're both hoping for a revolution
quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: That the big, mean, elitist liberals are picking on her - and by extension, looking down on all the "regular" folks.
But I *am* liberal, Liberal in fact. And I do look down at what she defines as 'regular folks' since I value things like advanced degrees, education, and international experience.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: Seriously? I mean, if Obama put all of his teleprompter stuff on his skin, he'd have to strip naked to give a talk.
She jotted down the points she wanted to make sure she didn't miss. No content -- not like Obama, who apparently needs everything in glowing letters in front of his face -- but just which points she wanted to be sure she addressed.
Umm, so how about that hour+ meeting with the GOP without a teleprompter last week by Obama?
Oh right, that would mess up your narrative.
Just as you complain about people missing the point on Palin, I think you are doing likewise with Obama.
EDIT: Bah, Lyrhawn said it better.
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Those of us who are liberal and who have to live her would prefer them not getting votes and support?
Is this hard for you to follow? I suppose the next question is why should you care. I can't answer that.
ETA: Okay, maybe I can. Even if you don't care what happens to the US or the people who live here. I doubt it would be in Canada'a interest for the US to fail.
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Depends on your definition of "fail." I'm not fan of the States, but I still think the US system is strong enough to not spontaneously collapse in the case of a Palin presidency. Rather, you'd get something like Bush, a slow but significant decline in US fortunes.
And that could definitely play into Canadian hands. For example, from what I understand the infusion of Loyalists during the Revolutionary War, the underground railway during the US Civil War, and the draft dodgers during Vietnam were actually beneficial for the Canadian economy. Especially in the last since they tended to be disproportionately college-educated, middle-class, and well, pacifists.
Bush definitely aided Liberal party fortunes in Canada as they gained significant mileage by "not being like Bush" (as compared with the conservatives). There was also a significant rise in the number of people that identify as non-religious which was another bonus.
Don't get me wrong, things would be much much better with a competent left-wing American leader. However, if the choice has to be between a "moderate" Republican and a Palin, I gotta say that a President Palin has many attractive benefits.
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I love how one solitary event without a teleprompter will be forever used as a response to Obama's general inability to function without one.
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Lisa what exactly is wrong with using a teleprompter? Do you expect long speeches to be memorized? Would notecards or a paper text be more acceptable? Why?
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Sadly, your government does not so much. Nor is it easy. For those in most need, immigration is not possible.
I had thought that your attitude toward the US and US citizans was bad, but I didn't really realize how bad until now.
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I love how one solitary event without a teleprompter will be forever used as a response to Obama's general inability to function without one.
I can't believe how much the teleprompter is brought up. Precisely what does it say about him that he uses a teleprompter? Do you think anyone using a teleprompter could give as good a speech? Seriously, what's your point?
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quote: what exactly is wrong with using a teleprompter?
It's not that there is something wrong with using a teleprompter but Obama uses it everywhere and in far more situations than any president has done in the past. Googling 'obama without a teleprompter' will show many links to youtube with President Obama stuttering, stammering and speaking almost incoherently
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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For the most part I think the various attempts to criticize Obama for using a teleprompter have been silly.
That said, the only times I've seen that the teleprompter seemed to be an... odd... call would be when he brought it to a middle school classroom, and when he brought it to a staff meeting.
In both cases, though, it wasn't even the teleprompter that looked so surreal and out of place. It was the presidential podium.
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quote: Obama uses it everywhere and in far more situations than any president has done in the past.
Can you source this? More importantly, if you mean this: "It's not that there is something wrong with using a teleprompter...", then why bother noting "... but Obama uses it everywhere?"
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: what exactly is wrong with using a teleprompter?
It's not that there is something wrong with using a teleprompter but Obama uses it everywhere and in far more situations than any president has done in the past. Googling 'obama without a teleprompter' will show many links to youtube with President Obama stuttering, stammering and speaking almost incoherently
This might be a case of seeing what you want to see. You see all that, and I see a man choosing his words carefully and thinking before he speaks. Something I admire in a leader.
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quote: I can't believe how much the teleprompter is brought up.
I can't believe notes on Palin's hand is being brought up and is a bigger news story at the moment than another drop in Obama's poll numbers
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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DarkKnight, the reasons I think that people have been bringing up the hand thing are 1) as a counter to the teleprompter thing and 2) because it brings to mind cheating or crib notes particularly because she attempted to look at her hand surreptitiously - or at least it seemed that way. This adds to the idea that she doesn't have a grasp of the facts.
That said, I agree that it is a silly thing to focus on.
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This is not difficult to find. You could have easily done so but here is one article... NY Times
quote:"It's not that there is something wrong with using a teleprompter...", then why bother noting "... but Obama uses it everywhere?"
Because it can be viewed as a crutch. Obama's opponents can and do say that Obama says what the little pane of glass tells him to say. Or perhaps you haven't noticed that criticism?
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DarkKnight, you get that he decides what is on that little pane of glass. That a teleprompter is just a high tech version of a bunch of paper. Do you think that speeches should be memorized or that previous presidents have not used notes?
Posts: 11187 | Registered: Sep 2005
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This is not difficult to find. You could have easily done so but here is one article... NY Times
quote:"It's not that there is something wrong with using a teleprompter...", then why bother noting "... but Obama uses it everywhere?"
Because it can be viewed as a crutch. Obama's opponents can and do say that Obama says what the little pane of glass tells him to say. Or perhaps you haven't noticed that criticism?
What does that criticism say about Obama? Do you think he is less intelligent because he prefers a teleprompter to index cards?
ETA: kmbboots makes all my posts redundant. Posts: 644 | Registered: Sep 2008
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quote:Originally posted by kmbboots: Sadly, your government does not so much. Nor is it easy. ...
This is not my impression. IIRC, Canada's immigration rate is one of the highest (if not the highest, I think we're competing with New Zealand?) immigration rates per capita in the world.
On a personal note, a good portion of my extended family immigrated to avoid any political troubles either due to the Hong Kong handover or due to other turmoil with no real troubles, so I have a pretty positive experience with the system when it comes to immigration for political reasons. I know its not perfect and there are complaints, but even our conservative government is committed to maintaining one of the highest immigration rates in the world despite the fact that I didn't vote for it
I can't comment on your feelings about US citizens specifically without knowing more why you feel that way. Why would my feelings toward US citizens be "bad" when I specifically want many of them to become Canadian citizens?
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Lisa: I love how one solitary event without a teleprompter will be forever used as a response to Obama's general inability to function without one.
You seriously don't remember the three extemporaneous debates Obama took part in during the campaign, during which he wiped the floor with John McCain (no slouch himself as a debater)?
Obama uses a teleprompter because he is a speechwriter at heart. He values diction and phrasing. In other words, once he and his staff put words to page, he wants to use them as written. It may be more artificial than some speakers, but it's a perfectly valid approach to public speaking. And incidentally, it's used by the vast majority of politicians, including Palin herself.
It is not remotely the same thing as needing to have the words "budget cuts" written on your hand to remember that you're supposed to argue for cutting the god damn budget.
Posts: 1321 | Registered: Sep 1999
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Having looked into moving to Toronto, it would be pretty difficult if not impossible unless I already had a job there. And I have a decent job now and a college education. And the cash that you need to prove you have before you can immigrate...and a number of things. Canada is not looking for undereducated poor people.
So it is lovely for you to be in a position to mock the very real difficulties that people in my country are facing, but it does make you rather an ass.
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quote:ause it can be viewed as a crutch. Obama's opponents can and do say that Obama says what the little pane of glass tells him to say. Or perhaps you haven't noticed that criticism?
I certainly have. Do you believe that it is a valid criticism?
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Ummmm, you're getting emotional so I'll cut back a bit. (Although I think you're wrong about the difficulty of the immigration system or who Canada accepts)
But do realize that you're rather overstating your case, the "very real difficulties" I'm mocking is the rather unlikely case that Palin takes the Republican nomination and wins an election against Obama, both an incumbent president in wartime and a pretty smart guy even if I disagree with many of his decisions. And thats without Palin randomly quitting, suffering from some massive corruption gaffe, or just generally self-destructing.
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Although I think you're wrong about the difficulty of the immigration system or who Canada accepts
Are you kidding? I have about a dozen friends (mostly Americans; some from the UK) who either have successfully emigrated to Canada, are in the process of trying to do so, or have given up. All have advanced degrees and/or a spouse with one, and some (like CT, who was already mentioned) have a spouse with Canadian citizenship. In not one case was the process simple, quick, or easy.
Are there countries which make it more difficult? Sure! Are there also many first world countries that make it far easier and less painful? HECK, yeah.
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There's only one way to expedite the process of emigrating to Canada - get on a terrorist watch list.
Posts: 431 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Mucus: BlackBlade: I have no objection to a multi-party system (as opposed to two party). In fact, I prefer it.
But I think it would be too much to hope for this Tea Party to really accomplish anything to that end.
Only in my wildest dreams does this development create a 3+ party system. But even when a party collapses that leaves a huge vacuum that can be filled with many things, both good and bad. When a party is filled up with pus and bile, you can't do much worse.
Best case scenario, it fizzles. More likely, it succeeds in dragging the Republican party even further to the right, snuffing out what little breathing space moderates in the Republican party have to get elected. Unlikely, it creates a vibrant third party movement.
The "vibrant" part is where the problem is. The Tea Party constituency is all over the place, but they're by and large an attack from the right wing of the Republican party. I think when it comes to supporting candidates, they'll very much be a conservative version of the green party. I don't know if it will be enough to siphon off enough votes to make a difference, but I don't see them becoming a national third party. The only way I could see that happening is if they ran Sarah Palin as a third party candidate, and independents bolt the party for the Democrats rather than supporting a Republican candidate they know won't go anywhere. If they were smart, they'd start pushing to elect senators in some of the less populated states where their message plays better and they can win for less money.
But I don't think they're nearly that coordinated yet.
Not yet, but they have several years to work on that.
It will likely be a Green party with a more conservative agenda, but you can't always predict who will stick around and who will throw their hands up and leave. Politics makes for strange bed fellows.
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