posted
As far as I can tell nobody died, and yeah I do think it is a little funny (although mostly sad) so I'm gonna say yes.
Posts: 4136 | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I love how they have to say "because he believes (incorrectly) that Obama wasn't born in the United States." Yeah, that'll teach him Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
They want to make sure they aren't Fox News who wouldn't say that or more correctly would try to insinuate it.
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Yeah, Fox would be "fair and balanced" and give his "opinion" equal footing with the facts.
In fact, they would lay out the argument that the birthers are making in detail, and include some quotes from the man and his family, and then include some hard-ass quotes from some government official that would make the POTUS look like an evil dictator socialist Hitler... and a black man, by the way.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
The birthers are cheering. A court martial will require evidence to disprove his claim. Obama could make the birthers look foolish and put an end to it in an instant. All he needs to do is release his college transcripts, passport information and birth certificate.
Did he hold a foreign passport? Did he use foreign student aid? Does he have an official birth certificate? Simple questions to answer. People wonder since he'd rather spend millions fighting them. Perhaps to him it's just a matter of principle. I've refused to let police search my car when I had nothing to hide. I wouldn't spend well over a million in legal fees to prevent it. Especially when being a citizen is a requirement.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The birthers are cheering. A court martial will require evidence to disprove his claim. Obama could make the birthers look foolish and put an end to it in an instant. All he needs to do is release his college transcripts, passport information and birth certificate.
Did he hold a foreign passport? Did he use foreign student aid? Does he have an official birth certificate? Simple questions to answer. People wonder since he'd rather spend millions fighting them. Perhaps to him it's just a matter of principle. I've refused to let police search my car when I had nothing to hide. I wouldn't spend well over a million in legal fees to prevent it. Especially when being a citizen is a requirement.
A court martial will do no such thing. All that is required is that someone above him in the chain of command issued a legal order. His commander, his Col. , anyone in the Pentagon....anyone in his chain of command anywhere.
He is going down, over an issue that was settled years ago, and I say good. I know too many idiots in the armed services as it is, we don't need this moron.
Our soldiers deserve better than having to serve with this idiot. He'd get them killed.
Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You obviously aren't familiar with the UCMJ. You are thinking about an Article 15 proceeding. All disciplinary actions start with an Article 15. Your misconduct is sent to the commander. All soldiers have the legal right to a court martial. Usually they let the senior officer decide their fate. If the military member doesn't want a single officer to decide, he can "request" a court martial. Court Martial sounds bad but in reality, it is a right to protect the individual soldier. A Court Martial is a legal proceeding equal to any civilian court. He has a right to a jury trial in a court martial.
Officers are unlike enlisted. They are unlike regular civilians. All the birther claims have been dismissed since the individual isn't personally effected. An officer answers to the president. They will have to prove that his claims are false. They will have to prove that the president is a citizen in order to convict this officer. The birthers are cheering. They cannot convict this officer in a court of law without proving him wrong. Only an officer can force the release of the actual documents. A single civilian doesn't have grounds. The court martial will decide this case.
Court martial isn't a bad thing for a soldier, it's a right. The same reason the Navy Seals chose court martial over article 15 for the alleged abuse of a terrorist. Article 15 is one man decides. Court martial is a legal right, a protection from politics, etc.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
you know, even if Obama PROVED in EVERY SINGLE WAY possible that he is a natural born citizen, I imagine the birther movement would at most lose 10% of it's idiotic members.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
He has proved it, mal. Obama's birth certificate has been verified by Hawaii officials. A copy was released. Honolulu newspapers listed his birth. The Snopes link above lists detailed sources.
All sniping about Obama's birth does is point out how ill-equipped most birthers are when it comes to criticizing Obama's policies in any useful manner.
Sorry, forgot; there is a good reason for continuing to spread the rumor that Obama is not a citizen: it's easier to condemn a foreigner. He's not one of us. A stranger has snuck in and home-invaded America! Ack! Hide your children!
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
And yup, he's being hailed as an American Hero by all the hate-Obama-for-any-reason-we-can-think-of sites.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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posted
Are we relying upon Snopes to uphold constitutional requirements? Snopes isn't the source that issued my security clearance. If Snopes is the best you have, you're the hack. The FBI talked to my high school counselors and my grandmother's neighbors to grant me a security clearance. What this officer is asking is that Obama undergo the same scrutiny he underwent.
Why fight multiple lawsuits? Answer one and put an end to it.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
rivka, sorry, I've seen the links before and know his birth certificate has been shown, and know about all the other material that has been put forth to prove his citizenship. My point, as evidenced by mal's refusal to accept any of it, is that these people don't buy it. They have an even longer laundry list of specific things they want to see to prove that Obama is a citizen and will accept nothing less. I'm suggesting that even if Obama jumps through every single hoop these people demand, only a very small percentage of them will actually find it satisfactory. Because this isn't about facts or proof. This is about believing what you want to believe, and I don't think any amount of evidence will convince these people otherwise.
Posts: 8741 | Registered: Apr 2001
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Damn birthers. Barry Sotero was a citizen of Indonesia who went to Pakistan when US Passport holders were not allowed in that country.
He was probably born in Hawaii but doesn't want to admit he claimed to be Kenyan in order to get good financial aid in college. He was probably born in Hawaii but doesn't want to admit he claimed to be Indonesian in order to get a passport.
I do believe he was born in Hawaii. He doesn't want to admit the other issues. Afterall, he can use a negro dialect when he wants to. He can be Indonesian or Kenyan if it suits his needs.
Posts: 1495 | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
At worst, that makes him a politician. You think cultural pandering is purely an Obama tactic?
You just admitted you think he is an American citizen. Now you're just complaining that he's used his heritage to try and get ahead in life.
Do you throw hissy fits when Americans wear maple leaves on their backpacks in Europe because they don't want to get heckled?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: You just admitted you think he is an American citizen. Now you're just complaining that he's used his heritage to try and get ahead in life.
In fairness to Mal, at no point in this thread did he actually say he didn't think Obama was an American citizen. He just expressed varying degrees of sympathy towards people who think that.
As far as the OP goes: Good riddance. Using flimsy birther BS to try and weasel out of your duty is pathetic.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
It seems like there could be more to it than 'weaseling out of his duty.' The guy is an 18 year veteran. A lifer. Why would someone who has been in the military that long, who likely already served several tours over the last nine or so years of conflict in the Middle East, suddenly say he doesn't want to do it this time around, and use the BIRTHER nonsense of all excuses as his reason?
Something doesn't quite click there. I have to hope there's more to it than that. As ridiculous as I think the birther movement is, I'll have a great deal more respect for the guy's honor if he honestly believes his orders are illegal than I would if he was just skipping out. On the other hand, I won't have much respect for his intelligence.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Wow, he's an 18 year veteran? That wasn't in the OP, and I'll admit to not looking this story up much elsewhere.
I guess he's just a really hardcore Birther? Bah. That's... ugh. I feel like I "get" the Tea Parties really well, for the most part, and agree with what they stand for, for the most part. But I really don't get the Birthers.
Posts: 3580 | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: The birthers are cheering. A court martial will require evidence to disprove his claim.
HAHAHA. So if you court martial someone who claiming the President is a lizard, and therefore unfit for command, you are required to blood test the President to make sure he isn't a lizard?
No. He disobeyed orders, so he is court martialed. That's all that needs to be proved.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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posted
Is it really that cut and dried? You have the right to refuse illegal orders in the military, no? In order to determine whether or not those orders are legal or illegal, wouldn't the legality have to be ascertained before they can decide if the soldier was right or wrong to refuse them?
I guess the crux comes in how far they're allowed to go to ascertain validity. Obama's actual order was not illegal in any sense that I can think of, so that's simple enough. But the solider is questioning the validity of Obama's powers to give the order in the first place. I'm not sure how that fits into the structure. Maybe Kwea or other vets could shed light on how the UCMJ operates in this area. It's been awhile since I've watched JAG.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Strider: I'm suggesting that even if Obama jumps through every single hoop these people demand
I believe it would change ZERO PERCENT. Some of the things they keep demanding DO NOT EXIST and CANNOT.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Snopes isn't the source that issued my security clearance. If Snopes is the best you have, you're the hack.
Snopes isn't the source, just a handy location for finding references. The FactCheck link is even more thorough, listing all the suspicions about the birth certificate and knocking them down one buy one with examinations of the actual birth certificate released. If the Hawaii state health director, Chiyome Fukino, and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have both personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate, why isn't that sufficient?
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_Frank: Wow, he's an 18 year veteran? That wasn't in the OP, and I'll admit to not looking this story up much elsewhere.
I guess he's just a really hardcore Birther? Bah. That's... ugh. I feel like I "get" the Tea Parties really well, for the most part, and agree with what they stand for, for the most part. But I really don't get the Birthers.
Birthers are steadfast in the belief that Obama is Other, and they are desperately seeking evidence that proves they were right all along to feel that way and not horrible racists who can't admit to themselves that brown people scare them. Seriously, the argument boils down to "I don't trust him because he doesn't look like (what I think) an American (should look like) and has a funny name" and they're trying to legitimize themselves by looking for evidence to support those uneasy gut feelings.
I know there's been a lot of screaming about whether or not the anti-Obama camp is racist and I'm not really going to get into the whole debate on that. But WRT the Birthers, do you guys really believe they would exist if Obama was white and had an Anglo name? Ask yourselves honestly if it would even be brought up at all, much less be given airtime on major news networks. (Hint: You can be white, have an Anglo name and still be from another country or have spent time in another country.)
Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Chris Bridges: If the Hawaii state health director, Chiyome Fukino, and the registrar of vital statistics, Alvin Onaka, have both personally verified that the health department holds Obama's original birth certificate, why isn't that sufficient?
Because it bursts mal's bubble. Please just stop feeding the troll.
Posts: 1711 | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I wasn't referring to Obama specifically. I don't know anything about the details of his birth and do not especially want to know.
It was more of an idle thought that could be applicable to all the former presidents as well.
@fugu13: Your short and brisk answer brings more questions to mind. Did you mean that a) "natural-born citizen" is not the correct phrasing. b) a c-section birth does not mean that one is excluded from the group of people that can be called natural-born? -or- c) This is getting silly and I will not merit such nonsense with a full length reply, lest this thread be derailed.
quote:b) a c-section birth does not mean that one is excluded from the group of people that can be called natural-born c) This is getting silly and I will not merit such nonsense with a full length reply
quote:Originally posted by Mr. Y: If the President has to be a "natural-born citizen", wouldn't that disqualify everyone who came into this world by means of a c-section?
Certainly not a question I've seen posed in this debate so far.
quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: He was probably born in Hawaii but doesn't want to admit he claimed to be Kenyan in order to get good financial aid in college. He was probably born in Hawaii but doesn't want to admit he claimed to be Indonesian in order to get a passport.
I do believe he was born in Hawaii. He doesn't want to admit the other issues.
I too find myself possessed of the flaw of not wanting to admit issues I don't actually have.
quote:Update May 5 2009: A new Obama citizenship story story claiming to be from the Associated Press saying that a group called "Americans for Freedom of Information" released copies of Occidental College transcripts showing that the "Fulbright Foundation" had awarded Barack Obama, under the name of Barry Soetoro, financial aid to attend Occidental College. This claims to be the "Smoking Gun" to the rumor about his natural born citizen status. The eRumor began circulating in April 2009 and by the end of the month reached critical mass. There is no such story by the Associated press and looking at the dateline this appears to be an April Fools joke.
An Occidental College spokesperson told TruthorFiction.com that President Obama's records are still sealed and no such transcripts have been released. When asked if the future President used the Obama or Soetoro name at the college, the spokesperson said that although he had not seen the sealed transcripts he had seen a 1981 photo book that was handed out to students and faculty at the beginning of the college year with student photos, names and hometown information. The 1981 photo book had "Barack Obama" under the student's photo and indicated a home state as Hawaii.
There is no "Fulbright Foundation" but there is a Fulbright program that is sponsored by the US Department of State and does award scholarship grants to students working towards higher degrees who already have a Bachelor of Arts degree. The program was established in 1946 under legislation introduced by late Senator J. William Fulbright of Arkansas and each year awards approximately 7,500 grants. The grants are for both American students who want to study abroad and foreign students who want to study in the US.
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: Is it really that cut and dried? You have the right to refuse illegal orders in the military, no?
I think only if you are sure that they are illegal- if you only suspect it, I don't think that's good enough. Soldiers do have some protections against prosecution if they follow order which they have no reason to believe are illegal. This would be one such case- following orders from say, an imposter superior. And anyway, in this case the orders didn't come from Barack directly, so the guy still broke with his chain of command.
Posts: 9912 | Registered: Nov 2005
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It argues that he was adopted by his stepfather in Indonesia and attended public school. The only way a child can attend a public school in Indonesia is if they became a citizen of Indonesia. Indonesia did not allow dual citizenship at the time, so Obama's would have had to give up his US citizenship. This would disqualify him from becoming the President.
For the most part I think it is a waste of time for the birthers keep going at it, but there are a few valid questions that should be answered.
Posts: 1937 | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Philip Berg, who brought lawsuits seeking to prevent the Electoral College from being seated in the 2008 presidential election, also claims that Obama was supposedly adopted by his mother's second husband, Lolo Soetoro, and therefore Obama lost his U.S. citizenship.[44] Berg's claim relies on the fact that Obama used the name "Barry Soetoro" when he lived in Indonesia, and ignores the Supreme Court case of Perkins v. Elg, which states that minors cannot, as a result of actions of their parents, lose U.S. citizenship obtained at birth.[45]
It seems that Perkins v. Elg renders that entire line of attack to be moot Geraine, even if it did happen.
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Philip Berg's questions have pretty much all been answered. Wiki is a good start, but if there's any other questions you can posit them here and there's plenty of impartial analysis sites that can provide those answers.
Posts: 15421 | Registered: Aug 2005
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Blayne Bradley
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: At worst, that makes him a politician. You think cultural pandering is purely an Obama tactic?
You just admitted you think he is an American citizen. Now you're just complaining that he's used his heritage to try and get ahead in life.
Do you throw hissy fits when Americans wear maple leaves on their backpacks in Europe because they don't want to get heckled?
Actually I kinda want to complain about that as if they screw up then that means no more free ermm.. "stuff" from the Dutch in Holland.
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Well, in the analogy said Americans would have some form of Canadian heritage (like Obama has some form of Kenyan/Indonesian heritage), so technically that should be within bounds.
Posts: 7593 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: You obviously aren't familiar with the UCMJ. You are thinking about an Article 15 proceeding. All disciplinary actions start with an Article 15. Your misconduct is sent to the commander. All soldiers have the legal right to a court martial. Usually they let the senior officer decide their fate. If the military member doesn't want a single officer to decide, he can "request" a court martial. Court Martial sounds bad but in reality, it is a right to protect the individual soldier. A Court Martial is a legal proceeding equal to any civilian court. He has a right to a jury trial in a court martial.
Officers are unlike enlisted. They are unlike regular civilians. All the birther claims have been dismissed since the individual isn't personally effected. An officer answers to the president. They will have to prove that his claims are false. They will have to prove that the president is a citizen in order to convict this officer. The birthers are cheering. They cannot convict this officer in a court of law without proving him wrong. Only an officer can force the release of the actual documents. A single civilian doesn't have grounds. The court martial will decide this case.
Court martial isn't a bad thing for a soldier, it's a right. The same reason the Navy Seals chose court martial over article 15 for the alleged abuse of a terrorist. Article 15 is one man decides. Court martial is a legal right, a protection from politics, etc.
Actually, I am VERY familiar with the UCMJ. Not to mention actual facts, and the effect they have on rational arguments.
You should bone up on both, IMO. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:Originally posted by malanthrop: Are we relying upon Snopes to uphold constitutional requirements? Snopes isn't the source that issued my security clearance. If Snopes is the best you have, you're the hack. The FBI talked to my high school counselors and my grandmother's neighbors to grant me a security clearance. What this officer is asking is that Obama undergo the same scrutiny he underwent.
Why fight multiple lawsuits? Answer one and put an end to it.
Dude...check out the sources listed by snopes, you moron. They are all legal, binding, and verified. The documents in question have been reviewed by actual ex[perts and sworn officials.
BTW, I have a level 2 TS clearance from my days at USAMRIID. I originally had a level 1 TS granted pending, but after a year and a half they realized they had forgotten to follow up on it, so I went though the in depth review for a level 2. They talked to teachers, family members, school officials, church officials, neighbors......you name it.
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