So I'm doing research this summer on religious education in the U.S.
I know, in my own, Orthodox Jewish, community, there are more kids in the private schools than there are in the public schools. Private school is insanely expensive, so, in an effort to cut costs, a few years back, the Orthodox Jews voted themselves onto the school board - now, every member of the school board is an Orthodox Jew. The best they can do is cut a bloated budget, and provide textbooks and busing to the private schools, but not really more than that.
Recently, there have been developments relating to charter schools - where they can compete for state funds with public schools. My Professor thinks that the direction a lot of religious schools might be going in is to open up charter schools, which are privately run, and close them in the afternoon, and reopen them as religious schools.
Either way, we are studying different communities that are trying different things, with or without a similar demography.
Anyone who has any knowledge of Orthodox Jewish communities that are similar, or Mormon, Catholic, or any other communities - I'd love to hear about them.
Thanks for all of your help!
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I don't know of any such thing done in Mormon communities. There are lots of charter schools out in Utah, but I never heard of any of them being religiously-oriented.
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What is the education like in Utah? Do Mormon parents not send to public schools? Is that why they do the charter-school thing? Do they educate religiously separately?
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quote:Private school is insanely expensive, so, in an effort to cut costs, a few years back, the Orthodox Jews voted themselves onto the school board - now, every member of the school board is an Orthodox Jew.
Oh, wow. This is remarkably, insanely slimy. *shudder*
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Abysmal -- Utah ranks near the bottom of the US for money spent per child educated.
quote: Do Mormon parents not send to public schools?
Most Mormon parents send their children to public schools.
quote: Is that why they do the charter-school thing?
I think the charter school thing is in response to my #1 above.
quote:Do they educate religiously separately?
To an extent, yes. There's a program called "Seminary", which is a school-day religious education program for high school students. I grew up outside of high Mormon populations, so our seminary class (which was held in our church building) was early in the morning before school.
I understand that in some communities with large Mormon populations, the LDS church will build a seminary building very close to the high school, and the school will allow students to go off-campus and attend seminary instead of going to study hall.
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Mormons don't run elementary and secondary schools in the U.S. The religious education for high school (seminary) is done by early-morning classes or by putting in a building near the public schools. Religious education for college students not attending a church university is done through Institute. In Utah, there is an institute building near the college, and outside, there are classes offered at night.
There are Mormon high schools in parts of Polynesia, but it seems like the rules there are very different.
quote:Private school is insanely expensive, so, in an effort to cut costs, a few years back, the Orthodox Jews voted themselves onto the school board - now, every member of the school board is an Orthodox Jew.
Oh, wow. This is remarkably, insanely slimy. *shudder*
I am hoping that I misunderstood the OP. Armoth, could you please clarify. Are these private religious schools for only Orthodox students? If so, why would other people want to be on the school board?
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quote:Private school is insanely expensive, so, in an effort to cut costs, a few years back, the Orthodox Jews voted themselves onto the school board - now, every member of the school board is an Orthodox Jew.
Oh, wow. This is remarkably, insanely slimy. *shudder*
Why is it slimy? The amount of kids in public school was grossly disproportionate to the amount of money being spent on them. Slimy? Isn't it democracy?
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I don't know the specifics of your state, but most charter-school legislation I am aware of does not allow religious schools -- charter schools are public schools and have to follow the same religiously-neutral policies as other public schools.
You might be able to do a charter school that operates only in the morning, but it would still need the state-required number of contact-hours per year. And the re-opening in the afternoon for religious education would have to be optional -- you couldn't bar a child from attending the charter school for not being a part of the afternoon program.
There is a MN case you might be interested in -- a charter school sponsored by a Muslim organization. There have been accusations of religious education happening during the school day. I haven't followed the case, so I'm not sure how it's played out, but I can try to find some links to it if you're interested.
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The private schools are only for Orthodox Jewish students. The majority of the community is Orthodox Jewish. The minority (unaffiliated Jews and non-Jews) send their kids to public schools.
The public school had a LOT of money to spend, since they didn't have to educate most of the kids in the district, as they were attending private school.
It is also an area with some of the highest taxes in the U.S. In an effort to control the spending, and to provide "special needs" services to private school children, the Orthodox Jews took over the board. They can't spend any money on the private schools beyond books, busing and special ed, bc that's illegal.
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I bet if you asked a parent who actually had a kid in the public school, instead of stacking the board with people who had no intention of sending their children to schools they had authority over, they would not agree with your "grossly disproportionate" sentiment.
So, what, the band members were getting new instruments every year? Or maybe public school kids don't actually deserve to have art programs?
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You might be able to do a charter school that operates only in the morning, but it would still need the state-required number of contact-hours per year. And the re-opening in the afternoon for religious education would have to be optional -- you couldn't bar a child from attending the charter school for not being a part of the afternoon program.
That's exactly the idea.
Any links you can find would be extremely helpful, thanks!
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quote:Originally posted by katharina: I bet if you asked a parent who actually had a kid in the public school, instead of stacking the board with people who had no intention of sending their children to schools they had authority over, they would not agree with your "grossly disproportionate" sentiment.
So, what, the band members were getting new instruments every year? Or maybe public school kids don't actually deserve to have art programs?
I hear you. But surely, you can see things from the other perspective, right?
If done correctly, adjusting the budget should only introduce fiscal responsibility and not cause the district to differ from any other district that does not have this demographic oddity. Right?
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It's possible. But I don't trust that to happen when the people doing all the adjusting are those with no skin in the game and a definite interest in providing as little as possible and then calling it sensible.
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No, I'm not being just rude. I'm also pointing out that there's almost nothing slimier than infiltrating a group just to deliberately deprive it of its ability to function, especially when that deprivation is entirely self-serving.
I mean, can you imagine how absolutely infuriating it must be to have your children's future ripped from them by a bunch of bigots, just because the bigots got sick of paying extra to send their kids to entirely optional religious schools? I understand that this might be difficult for you to grasp, being a product of a purely private system, but these people have gamed their local democracy to obtain control over an organization serving a population from which they voluntarily choose to exclude themselves, just to hurt that population.
It's baldly, coldly selfish, and I think considerably less of that community for it.
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Some might say that it isn't infiltrating if the majority is Orthodox.
Also, trimming the budget is very different than depriving it of its ability to function.
This conversation is so odd to me - it's weird because you've decided something is slimy and wrong without any context when it's entirely possible that the whole situation was resolved equitably and equilibrium was restored.
And yes. It is self-serving. But that's what government is about, we organize ourselves together because what we can do together is greater than what we can do alone. Is it fair to expect people to contribute when they can't see any benefit from their own contribution?
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There seems to be a huge conflict of interest in having a large group of people that have absolutely no intention of improving the public school system run that system in order to better accommodate a private school system and in order to do things like "provide textbooks and busing to the private schools."
Is there no ethics commissioner or equivalent?
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Fast moving thread, that last was maybe four or five posts up.
I think it is on the edge but reasonably acceptable to elect politicians and oversight for the school boards that restrict the public school board from the outside.
But to infiltrate the actual public school board and plot to redirect funds as close to the rules as possible to also aid the private schools, that just beyond the pale of sliminess. What is the name of this community?
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None of it is motivated by bigotry. In the worst light? Selfishness, sure. But please be judicious in your choice of words.
The context you are looking at, sure it's infuriating, but i know you to be capable of looking at the larger perspective. You understand the theories of government, large and small, this community tipped, and it has the right to control its own spending.
When the religious are in the minority, it's sad for them - the lifestyles we lead do not exactly jive with public school education. That's our right, to have a choice.
Maybe this charter school system would be a whole lot fairer to everyone.
Mucus - Don't know. I'm about to get a lot better acquainted with the politics...
Look - I don't love this situation either. But I don't think it's fair to ask the Orthodox parents, who are hurting financially, to let a minority spend their own money, plus theirs, on their own children. Having private school parents who don't send their kids to the public schools make the decisions may not be the best solution either...
The community is Lawrence, New York - District 15.
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I submit, frankly, that Orthodox Judaism is a concept which is bigoted at its very core. But rarely is it a major issue.
quote:But I don't think it's fair to ask the Orthodox parents, who are hurting financially, to let a minority spend their own money...
Why not? They could always send their kids to public schools.
Look, there is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- more important in a community than a well-funded and well-run public school system. It is the absolute heart and soul of local government. To see it subverted like this incenses me.
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I submit, frankly, that Orthodox Judaism is a concept which is bigoted at its very core. But rarely is it a major issue.
I challenge that assertion.
And no, according to our lifestyles, we don't have that choice. Think about that for a moment - you assumption that your lifestyle is correct and that mine is an added choice - it's a little bit intolerant.
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You could always choose to disobey your God. You choose not to.
These people are not willing to pay extra money to obey their (fictional) God. And, because of the vagaries of democracy, they can now deprive children outside their social circle of quality schooling so that they can throw it at their own children. I'm not going to wave any flags.
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Of course there is a choice. Religion is a choice. Given the choices you have already made regarding your chosen lifestyle, choices that are consistent with that are more limited, but you choose that lifestyle.
Tom, or choose to believe different things about God.
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Here we go, some verification of the situation
quote:In each of the last four years, Orthodox voters mobilized to defeat the school budget -- one of the longest losing streaks on Long Island. Then in July, they took charge of the school board, though few of the Orthodox send their children to public schools. Out of seven seats, the new majority consists of four Orthodox members and one ally.
quote:Half the students are black or Hispanic, and 36 percent are eligible for a free or discounted lunch, a poverty indicator. ''Yet we had seven Intel scholars this year, tied with Bronx High School of Science and fifth in the nation,'' Dr. Fitzsimons said. ''We're no slouches.''
Once top rated academically, Lawrence has seen its academic scores and graduation rates slip, declines often noted by Orthodox leaders. Some defenders of the public schools say those trends stem from the steady shift of strong-scoring students to Orthodox day schools. Average spending per public student is about $24,000, one of the highest levels on Long Island. That figure is inflated, however, by the cost of busing, books and other programs for thousands of Orthodox day school students.
quote:But the schools have led to the greatest tensions, and the friction seems especially intense with more assimilated Jews. ''As a fellow Jew, it upsets me even more,'' Pamela Greenbaum, a non-Orthodox school board member, said of the aims of the Orthodox leaders.
I would like to know exactly what we apparently don't know which makes it so that this is NOT what it appears to be on the surface, that being an incredibly callous subversion of an educational system purely for the self-interest of your own religious group.
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As a point of information, in most states public schools are funded according to the number of students actually enrolled. Is your state different than this? If not, it's not like your public schools are getting a big pile of money based on the high percentage of students that choose not to enroll. In fact, they might be worse off than neighboring districts, since lowered enrollment means less of the per-student funding available for overhead costs that aren't lessened by lowered enrollment.
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Religion is a choice just like lack of religion is a choice. And we're back to square one.
You believe my lifestyle is fictional - the same way I believe your lifestyle to be fictional. We don't make decisions for one another predicated on the assumptions that we are right. That's why I think it's reasonable that you get to use your money for your schooling, and I ask that you let me use mine, for mine.
And no one is depriving children outside their social circle of quality schooling. On what moral authority can you tell me that I must pay for the schooling of your children, but you need not pay for mine?
Is it immoral if I wish you well and prefer to separate? I prefer to pay for my own child and for you to pay for your own? The legal system is constructed in a way in which that is not possible unless there is a private school majority on the school board. Perhaps there should be a better solution, but for now, this is it.
And again, Tom, your bigotry accusation offended me.
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quote:Originally posted by dkw: As a point of information, in most states public schools are funded according to the number of students actually enrolled. Is your state different than this? If not, it's not like your public schools are getting a big pile of money based on the high percentage of students that choose not to enroll. In fact, they might be worse off than neighboring districts, since lowered enrollment means less of the per-student funding available for overhead costs that aren't lessened by lowered enrollment.
That's a good question that I don't know the answer to yet. However, it should be noted that wherever the money is going, private school parents are still paying taxes. But I'd agree that it would be wrong to "recoup" that money from the public schools if they are not the ones who are getting it.
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quote:Tom, or choose to believe different things about God.
To be fair, Kate, I don't think the kind of Jew Armoth wants to be has that option.
But that in itself is a choice.
Armoth, you have to pay for public schools even though you don't choose to send your children to them for the same reason that I have to pay for schools. Childless people pay taxes too, you know.
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quote:Originally posted by Armoth: Is it immoral if I wish you well and prefer to separate? I prefer to pay for my own child and for you to pay for your own? The legal system is constructed in a way in which that is not possible unless there is a private school majority on the school board. Perhaps there should be a better solution, but for now, this is it.
That is not a "solution". That is a subversion to try to get around a secular public school system and disempower it for your own benefit at the cost of children who are not part of your religious community.
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The people running a school should be the people who actually have an interest in that school. It is definitely a problem if the school board consists of members whose only interest is keeping resources away from that school, so kids going to private schools can have them instead.
It actually seems like they are attacking it from the wrong point. The school board doesn't have the power to tax and give money to the schools, does it? It seems like there should be something above the school board deciding that - like a mayor or city council. And it seems like that would be the appropriate place to try and limit the amount of funding that public schools get, if there isn't enough interest in public schools there.
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quote:That's why I think it's reasonable that you get to use your money for your schooling, and I ask that you let me use mine, for mine.
Except that's not what the public school system is. It is predicated on the premise that, for the good of the community, even childless people have to pay to school the children of the community.
If there is some group that doesn't want to send their children to public school, that group can pay for it.
quote:Tom, your bigotry accusation offended me.
Then you should really try not to belong to such an exclusive club.
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Not exactly Kmb, because I have the option to cost the district a lot of money by indeed sending my kids to the public schools. Private schools, arguably, save the state a lot of money.
When it reaches the point that an private school majority can possibly achieved on the school board, don't you think that it's fair to introduce fiscal responsibility, and perhaps some benefit to the private school children?
Tresopax - I'm not sure about the answer to this one either, but I know that one of the public school parents who ran for school board, and lost, ran on a platform suggesting a 1% tax increase. Not sure if that means that the board has the power to tax. I'll find out.
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quote:That's why I think it's reasonable that you get to use your money for your schooling, and I ask that you let me use mine, for mine.
Except that's not what the public school system is. It is predicated on the premise that, for the good of the community, even childless people have to pay to school the children of the community.
If there is some group that doesn't want to send their children to public school, that group can pay for it.
quote:Tom, your bigotry accusation offended me.
Then you should really try not to belong to such an exclusive club.
Okay. But that system has it's obvious flaws, which I've pointed out, and you have not acknowledged. Seemingly because you have been arguing with me emotionally, or maybe you just don't like me and are not inclined to validate my point of view at all. ::shrug::
As for the "exclusivity" of my club, you can join it whenever you like. How's that for exclusivity?
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I, also, save the state a lot of money by not sending any children to any kind of school. I don't understand your point.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: That you equate "fiscal responsibility" with "private schooling" is, frankly, another problem -- and a claim that is fairly easily disproven.
And, no, there should be no public benefit to private school children.
I'm asking you to join me in a debate about the philosophical underpinnings of the principles you just asserted. That's the level at which we're conversing. Simply responding with the principles without engaging my points is ALSO rude.
Dude. What is your problem? I come from a context, and from a particular perspective. You want to change my mind? You'll need to understand me. I mean, as long as you want the conversation to be productive.
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My problem is that you posted this thread asking us to help a group of complete and total assholes, without having an inkling of the possibility that they were being assholes. That disappointed me enormously.
Philosophically, the public school system exists to teach the populace. It cannot do that effectively, as long as it must be geographically based, unless it is free from the vagaries of both the market and a fluctuating local population. This particular proposal is even worse for a public school system than vouchers (which I also oppose), precisely because it turns over control of other elements of the school system to people whose only interest in it is to see it undermined. I believe this is, in fact, even slimier than when those jerks in Kansas took over school boards to push their own anti-scientific agendas; at least they cared enough to want to influence the curriculum, instead of just redirect funds.
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From this discussion, it looks like Orthodox Jews are bad neighbors - terrible neighbors, who will deliberately deprive the children that don't belong to their social group. Is that really an image any group wants to perpetuate?
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I don't think that Tom has a problem understanding the context. He - or at least I don't agree that that context gives you a pass for bad behaviour.
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I appreciate that Tom. If it makes you feel better, the research will be used to form solutions that are a lot better for everyone than this one.
What disappoints me more than the fact that you've judged this community without any of the real facts - when it is indeed possible for this solution to have been equitable - is the way you talked to me. Accusing the community of bigotry, my religion of bigotry, without backing it up - you've been a giant ball of rage on this thread.
I find that truly disappointing.
I mean, who am I? Am i such an irrational jerk on this forum? Does the name "Armoth" evoke that knee-jerk response - "omg, that moron of a theist and his wacky ideas."
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Armoth, imagine is a bunch of Catholic moved just into the border of your school district, took over the board and diverted the public money to Catholic schools. Even though I am Catholic, I would think this a bad thing to do and would oppose it. Basically what your group has done is take over a public governmental organization, not to benefit the public in general, but to get more resources for your particular group. How are we not supposed to see that as bad?
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