posted
On the way out of the cafeteria today with my class, I overheard four eighth-graders going into the locker bank (our lockers are set up gymnasium style near the front office) saying something about having the money. Now, because of the locker set-up and the lack of supervision they are only allowed there before and after school. I know one of the boys is always selling something (against district policy), so I started chasing them out of the locker bank. Three of them ran off, but one decided to stay and get nasty with me. He told me to get the f*** out of his face, and while blocking his path he shoved me back.
Now, being twice his age, and having a family to feed, doing anything back was out of the question. So I just stood my ground, and yelled out for an extra hand. He pushed into me a couple of more times before security showed up.
This is an ongoing problem in my district. Students are frankly allowed to put their hands on teachers, but we cannot do the same. Frankly, I don't know if that is right or wrong.
While I could technically file a police report, I don't have any physical injuries, and they are not going to lock him up for that. The most that is going to happen is that he will get a five day suspension. The reward he received was accolades from his school mates for standing up to a 6'5" teacher.
Because of a student on suspension in Virginia committing suicide a while ago, Maryland wants its districts to cut back on suspensions except for seriously violent offenses. They are even developing a three year plan to do this. The data is on their side, suspension truly do not change a students behavior. The problem is they don't give us any funding for alternative options. We have no money for after school detention or Saturday school.
I frankly don't know what the solution is, other than continuing to apply to other school districts with more middle and upper income students. Which is a shame, because I actually enjoy most of the students, and get a lot out of working in low income areas.
[ April 16, 2012, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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Good Luck. I wish I had encouragement for you. But in this case (like many situations these days, sadly), there is none to be had.
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That's unfortunate that suspensions are ineffective at altering behavior. I suspect on their own they are not. I know that my being suspended combined with good parenting turned my behavior around when I was in elementary school. It took more than one suspension sadly.
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Wow. In my district, if a student put hands on me, or even threatened to, he'd be *expelled*, no further questions asked. Whether or not I chose to *also* press assault charges. I've already had three students expelled, two for threatening me and one for punching me (unintentionally, while trying to punch another student).
What state do you work in, so I can stay the hell away?
posted
I have been cussed at by students, only to have nothing happen to them. Very frustrating. I even lost my temper with my principal and told her I didn't think I should have to put up with a student using the f-word directed at me in my own classroom, she told me she agreed, but "he says he didn't say it, so there's nothing I can do."
Now, a kid did put hands on a friend of mine and he was removed from the school to alternative school for 20 school days. No more than that, but the kid is special ed, and if you have an IEP, that limits the number of days they assign you to alternative school.
I also have a kid in my class who committed a felony and is awaiting trial - a gun related crime. We were told that felony charges meant the kid could not be in school...but this was only a class C felony so it was going to be allowed.
All I can tell you is there comes a point when you have to give up, I think. I'm almost there. I hate to say that, because I do think there can be great reward in working with lower-income, disadvantaged kids - I absolutely love many of my kids and enjoy the time I have with them. But, I am at the point where I don't think it outweighs the bad anymore. I used to work in the corporate world and honestly, much of what I put up with, if it happened in the corporate world I could sue for a hostile work environment. Last week while I was bent down pluggin in a speaker, a kid threw a full water bottle at me and almost hit me.
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This thread is seriously depressing. It's just so antithetic to how my classroom experience was. I think the most hostile I ever saw anyone get in a classroom was somebody talking while the teacher was giving us important instructions for our final exam, the teacher dismissed the student, and another student took umbrage and was also dismissed from class. Both of them took the final later, but I remember being so uncomfortable seeing a teacher having their authority question.
Maybe it's an Asian thing I've picked up.
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I very much doubt the problem underlying the scenarios discussed here is that students are aware teachers won't (always) retaliate, and that if they would, disciplinary problems would evaporate.
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quote:Originally posted by Vasslia Cora: That is sucky situation.
*Puts on flame suit*
I would say that some corporal punishment is needed for a civilized society.
There's no basis for it. It's not needed for schooling or parentage; it's not even preferable. The best parenting methods forego spanking entirely to great benefit, and scientific review of spanking really underscores the overall detriment of the practice. Corporal punishment is more likely to contribute to aggression problems in people (and overall in society) than to curtail them. By any reasonable definition I can come up with for a 'civilized' society, modeled off of what we know about developmental influences and childrearing methods, we only become more civilized when we abandon the practice of having parents and authority figures model pain and humiliation inflicted by violence as a method of conflict resolution and enforcement to children.
That said, I'd take it over the absolutely spineless and toothless affair described in stephan's school.
quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I frankly don't know what the solution is, other than continuing to apply to other school districts with more middle and upper income students. Which is a shame, because I actually enjoy most of the students, and get a lot out of working in low income areas.
Run. Escape. Apply. If you get any chance to escape to upper income schools, take it. It should be your primary goal. Try to get to the functional bubbles of our wreck of a school system and stay there.
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quote:Originally posted by Icarus: Wow. In my district, if a student put hands on me, or even threatened to, he'd be *expelled*, no further questions asked. Whether or not I chose to *also* press assault charges. I've already had three students expelled, two for threatening me and one for punching me (unintentionally, while trying to punch another student).
What state do you work in, so I can stay the hell away?
Maryland, at least the Prince George's County part of it. Not like that in all of my state's districts.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I have been cussed at by students, only to have nothing happen to them. Very frustrating. I even lost my temper with my principal and told her I didn't think I should have to put up with a student using the f-word directed at me in my own classroom, she told me she agreed, but "he says he didn't say it, so there's nothing I can do."
Now, a kid did put hands on a friend of mine and he was removed from the school to alternative school for 20 school days. No more than that, but the kid is special ed, and if you have an IEP, that limits the number of days they assign you to alternative school.
I also have a kid in my class who committed a felony and is awaiting trial - a gun related crime. We were told that felony charges meant the kid could not be in school...but this was only a class C felony so it was going to be allowed.
All I can tell you is there comes a point when you have to give up, I think. I'm almost there. I hate to say that, because I do think there can be great reward in working with lower-income, disadvantaged kids - I absolutely love many of my kids and enjoy the time I have with them. But, I am at the point where I don't think it outweighs the bad anymore. I used to work in the corporate world and honestly, much of what I put up with, if it happened in the corporate world I could sue for a hostile work environment. Last week while I was bent down pluggin in a speaker, a kid threw a full water bottle at me and almost hit me.
Not quite true about SPED, at least for federal law. They can be put out longer, but involves more paper work and manifestation meetings. Things administrators often don't have time to do.
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quote:Originally posted by Vasslia Cora: That is sucky situation.
*Puts on flame suit*
I would say that some corporal punishment is needed for a civilized society.
Corporal punishment is actually legal in the US, most people don't realize that. Each school district has to decide for itself. In those few areas where it happens, the teachers generally are not the ones doing the punishing.
The principal, with parental permission, is the one administering it.
But it is true, corporal punishment does not solve the behavior long term.
The true data, the stuff most politicians refuse to look at, says it is the parents. Whether genetic, or the home environment, the parents determine what sort of student you will be in MANY cases. Not all though. My sister-in-law had horrible parents, and was the only one of her 5 siblings to break the cycle.
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I think you could go anywhere else in Maryland and find an improvement over PG County. And I might even include Baltimore City in that, just from talking to other teachers in the system. Not that Baltimore City is all roses by any stretch.
You must be looking in Howard County, right? Plenty of low income kids there but from what I understand, a very teacher-friendly place. Actually Howard has the opposite problem to some extent; their parents tend toward hyperinvolvement. And yeah, I'd put myself in that category, though we're in Anne Arundel now. Anne Arundel really varies from school to school; we've really loved my daughter's middle and high school but not every school in the district is so fortunate.
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quote:Originally posted by ladyday: I think you could go anywhere else in Maryland and find an improvement over PG County. And I might even include Baltimore City in that, just from talking to other teachers in the system. Not that Baltimore City is all roses by any stretch.
You must be looking in Howard County, right? Plenty of low income kids there but from what I understand, a very teacher-friendly place. Actually Howard has the opposite problem to some extent; their parents tend toward hyperinvolvement. And yeah, I'd put myself in that category, though we're in Anne Arundel now. Anne Arundel really varies from school to school; we've really loved my daughter's middle and high school but not every school in the district is so fortunate.
I live in Arnold, so Anne Arundel and Queen Anne's are the two I have been applying for. My brother-in-law is a vice-principal in Queen Anne's, so I have so hope there.
I am a product of Howard myself though (at least through middle school). Things in my middle school were a little weird from what I recall. There was no honor roll for example, some parent raised a fuss about lower performing students feeling let down. I remember an awards ceremony for attendance, but my 3.5 GPA never got recognized. Things have probably changed over the last two decades, I assume.
[ April 17, 2012, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]
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Marginally related: every year I write competition math problems for Howard County and Baltimore County. Considering that I have absolutely no knowledge of those school districts, it's interesting to read what you all have to say about them.
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quote:Not quite true about SPED, at least for federal law. They can be put out longer, but involves more paper work and manifestation meetings. Things administrators often don't have time to do.
Oh, I know what the law says. What I meant to get across and did not do a good job of, is that the administrators are reluctant to assign SPED kids for long, due to the increased paperwork. Plus, the scrutiny - when you assign a kid to those numbers of days, often parents and advocacy groups want to ask how the chld's accommodations have been carried out according to the IEP, particularly if they have a behavior plan. No one wants that scrutiny, because it is often impossible with current staffing and funding levels to adequately carry out everything written in an IEP.
For the non-education employees, IEP = Individualized Education Plan and it is a legal document that states how a student with a disability will be educated and what accommodations are put in place to help the student succeed. "Disability" is a very broad term that encompasses physical and mental impairments, learning disabilities, ADHD, behavior disorders, etc.
Students cannot be suspended if the behavior is a manifestation of their disability. If a kid with Tourette's cusses out loud, for example, he cannot be disciplined for it. But, with behavior disorders becoming more commonly diagnosed and behavior plans written, it's getting harder and harder. I have one student with "Oppositional-Defiance Disorder" and any time he refuses to comply with what I tell him, it's difficult to prove he's being defiant, or it's a manifestation of his disability. Makes life difficult, and frustrating.
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I know several elementary school teachers that spend A LOT of time trying to refer their behavior problems into the special ed department to get them out of their class. They even pressure the school psychologists to recommend it.
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I am providing you with this update to make you aware of the impact of the actions during the 2012 Maryland General Assembly session. The results of the session will have a significant impact on our FY2013 budget. Because the General Assembly session ended without the approval of the Fiscal Year 2013 budget submitted by Governor Martin O'Malley, our school system is now faced with an additional $51 million in cuts. Needless to say, this would have a substantial impact on our students, teachers, staff and schools.
Currently, we are re-evaluating our $1.65 billion budget request that was submitted to the County Council earlier this spring. If a special session is not scheduled to resolve the inaction on the Governor's budget, our system will once again face draconian cuts that would likely result in even larger class sizes, program cuts and significant position reductions.
The Board and I have sent a letter to the Governor and the leaders of both the House and Senate to encourage them to schedule a special session as soon as possible in order to address the State Budget. We encourage you to do the same. We are certain that this matter can be resolved during a special session and are requesting our State leaders to convene a special session as quickly as possible.
posted
My system has gotten several similar emails. This year we had no supply budget at all...we had a small budget provided by the local system but I've already used it all for copies. I'm now into paying for copies out of my own pocket. So you have to ask yourself when giving a test if it's worth the $20 to run off copies for your students, or can you print multiple pages on one sheet by reducing the size (so students complain they can't read it) or what you should do. I tried putting quizzes and tests online and having the students take them but none of the computer labs have enough working computers....so it puts you in a tough spot.
I've ordered no supplies using school money in two years - every paper clip, piece of paper, staple, pen, or pencil used in my classroom was purchased by me with no reiumbursement possible. I can claim up to $250 a year on my taxes for supplies I purchase and use in my classroom and I spent that much the first week of school getting the supplies for the room and making copies of my syllabus to send home to parents because we didn't yet have the local money for copies. My students don't bring supplies, and I can't fail one for not bringing a pencil so I have to provide pencils. Ditto paper. I've bought multiple copies of every book I teach (I scour used book stores!)because students won't purchase them.
I would love to try teaching somewhere where I can pass out a sheet of paper to students without thinking of how much it cost me. And I don't have to ask if the student that just returned to class from county lockup was convicted of a class A or class C felony so I know if he should be there or not.
Teaching in an urban, disadvantaged environment is really tough - it takes a certain person to do it and often they burn out quickly. I'm not sure if I were ever cut out for it, but I know my time doing this is running short. I've spent too much time considering leaving the profession altogether. My husband wants me to consider teaching somewhere else first, but I don't know.
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quote:Originally posted by ladyday: Stephan, dude, I'm in Arnold too! You're not in Twin Harbors are you?
Ha! Small world. Technically I am in Annapolis, but I even vote in Arnold. Whispering Woods, right off of Bay Dale.
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posted
Try making a Power Point of your test and having them write the answer on their own paper.
This also solves the problem of students finishing early and having nothing to do. They will always be on the same question!
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quote:Originally posted by Stephan: I know several elementary school teachers that spend A LOT of time trying to refer their behavior problems into the special ed department to get them out of their class. They even pressure the school psychologists to recommend it.
My mother is actually getting ready to retire after this school year after 30 years of teaching as a special education teacher, and she's expressed the opinion many times that shoehorning children with behavioral issues into special ed is a huge deficit to actually helping the kids who need the educational help.
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This topic reminded me of this story. It was discussed at length on a local parent/child care forum, and the consensus there seemed to be that it is regrettable, but that there was no alternative for the school, since CLEARLY, the educators couldn't physically restrain the child (asking for a lawsuit), despite the child being a danger to herself and others, so calling in the police was the only alternative.
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quote:I know several elementary school teachers that spend A LOT of time trying to refer their behavior problems into the special ed department to get them out of their class. They even pressure the school psychologists to recommend it.
That seems odd to me now that inclusion is a thing - wouldn't they just get more resources in their classroom if they taught more special ed kids?
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Tearing things off the walls and throwing furniture is a lot more than a "tantrum".
I'm not surprised the kids' parents are blaming the school. They clearly don't expect any better from their child. And they likely would have sued if a school representative had forcibly restrained her.
I'm curious what you suggest should have happened instead?
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Tearing things off the walls and throwing furniture is a lot more than a "tantrum".
I'm not surprised the kids' parents are blaming the school. They clearly don't expect any better from their child. :p And they likely would have sued if a school representative had forcibly restrained her.
I'm curious what you suggest should have happened instead?
Sorry if I was unclear. I -agree- with the idea that there is nothing else the teachers or principal could have done. My point in posting is that I found it interesting that not one parent in the other forum even suggested that there was a viable alternative to passing the buck to the police, which relates back to the thread topic. What -should- a teacher be allowed to do? Because clearly what they currently -can- do is: nothing, and if things get out of control, call the cops. Is there even an alternative that we could consider, policy-wise? I tend to think that litigiousness (possibly not a real word) so far outweighs common sense that everyone's hands will continue to be tied.
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quote:I'm not surprised the kids' parents are blaming the school. They clearly don't expect any better from their child. And they likely would have sued if a school representative had forcibly restrained her.
This is another example of that thing that frequently fascinates me more about a scandalous kind of story than the scandal itself: do the parents actually believe, between themselves, that this is actually the school's fault?
The facts (so far as we know them, usual caveats) seem to make their idea-it's the school's fault!-absurdly unlikely. But, then, perhaps shock and shame and shyness over the spotlight have driven that internal editor that says to most people, "Wait a second, nobody's gonna buy that." So is that what happened? It's certainly also possible that they simply believe, without panic-stricken irrationality, that it IS the school's fault, and that they are simply so completely right that question never even gets asked.
I need to get bitten by a radioactive gypsy mind-reader or something, so I can have answers to these burning questions.
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quote:Originally posted by Belle: I think I have made my decision. I just applied for two jobs tonight.
I will only come back to this school if no one else will hire me.
Well, I'm rooting for ya. I think in most people's cases, no matter how well-intentioned (possibly hastened by actually being well-intentioned) — it comes down to a very distinct career challenge: getting into a good, well-funded school and/or district, or burning out trying.
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quote:I know several elementary school teachers that spend A LOT of time trying to refer their behavior problems into the special ed department to get them out of their class. They even pressure the school psychologists to recommend it.
That seems odd to me now that inclusion is a thing - wouldn't they just get more resources in their classroom if they taught more special ed kids?
Not necessarily. And those resources sometimes include 70 year old classroom assistants with back problems.
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posted
Students with personality disorders who have behavioral problems in class need different help than children who have a developmental or learning disorder, so sometimes (even if they are somehow to get more resources provided -- which is unlikely) it's still impossible to actually provide the help needed to each individual student. Many of the more extreme behavioral issues need more help than just a special ed teacher can provide; in some areas, the caseload of special ed teachers is already breaking their backs so much it'd be impossible for them to also take on a full docket of behavioral problems.
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posted
So is it more likely that, by raising a stink and putting pressure on the special ed department, a student would be moved out of a teacher's class? And if so, what are they doing with these kids? That's what I find odd about the idea of teachers pushing kids into the special ed program; since special ed kids are mainstreamed now, what does a teacher gain by doing that?
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It depends on the size of the school. In my district we have mainstream classes with a mix of special ed and general ed students. So if Ms. Smith is having behavior problems with Johnny, she starts pushing to have him placed in Mr. Davis' class with the SPED/GEN-ED mix.
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The school district in which my mother used to work used to have, when the funding was available, an alternative school program which existed mostly as a separate entity from the actual school which was designed as a place for the more extreme behavioral issues students, so the actual special ed students could continue to get the help they needed in an environment which would faciliate that aid. The separate program was staffed with teachers better suited and more willing to work the type of student who would be violently hostile, and the program was designed with curriculum which could work more fluidly within that context.
I think a lot of schools in the area used to have such programs, but funding has become so dependent on test scores and the area's SES demographics that many schools have had to put an end to these programs and fold the behavioral issue children back into the normal special ed. Anecdotally, this has caused essentially a stand-still in the progress made with both kinds of student in the now combined special ed program. Which has viciously affected test scores and therefore also available funding to the school.
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posted
Bring back caning in schools, that's what I say. Although I don't necessarily completely disagree with those who prefer hanging, drawing, and quartering.
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quote:Originally posted by Vasslia Cora: That is sucky situation.
*Puts on flame suit*
I would say that some corporal punishment is needed for a civilized society.
There's no basis for it. It's not needed for schooling or parentage; it's not even preferable. The best parenting methods forego spanking entirely to great benefit, and scientific review of spanking really underscores the overall detriment of the practice. Corporal punishment is more likely to contribute to aggression problems in people (and overall in society) than to curtail them. By any reasonable definition I can come up with for a 'civilized' society, modeled off of what we know about developmental influences and childrearing methods, we only become more civilized when we abandon the practice of having parents and authority figures model pain and humiliation inflicted by violence as a method of conflict resolution and enforcement to children.
I (perhaps obviously) object to corporal punishment on far more than just practical concerns, but that being said I also totally agree with Sam.
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quote:Originally posted by King of Men: Bring back caning in schools, that's what I say. Although I don't necessarily completely disagree with those who prefer hanging, drawing, and quartering.
I think the vast majority of behavioral issues in schools which would necessitate such punishment generally stem from something occurring at home. In the schools around here, the trend seems to be to try to shove all misbehaving children into special ed regardless of whether or not they have a diagnosis or an IEP when really the behavior problems begin at home.
In any event, somebody at some point needs to be punishing kids somehow.
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quote:This year we had no supply budget at all...we had a small budget provided by the local system but I've already used it all for copies. I'm now into paying for copies out of my own pocket.
That. Is. Appalling.
Schools tend to run out of whiteboard pens and pencils and small things like that and I have supplied those to the classrooms I teach in, but I've never had to pay for something as basic to all classrooms as photocopies.
In the UK there are schools called Pupil Referral Units which deal specifically with children with severe behavioural issues. However, getting children into the schools is very difficult and it needs to reach really epic levels of uncontrollability in order for anything to be done. I go to one particularly insanely badly behaved school (I go there next week! What will happen next?!) and despite being not in class more than 50% of the time (they walk out randomly and then wander around the school while you wonder what has happened to the 8-11 year old in your care, unable to leave the class) they are still in the regular system full time-- much good that it does them.)
UK teachers are allowed to restrain kids if necessary... I've had to catch arms to try to deflect flung pens, rulers and chairs before we can evacuate the classroom. However, I wouldn't do that with a teenager because their adrenaline kicks in so much more violently.
The U.S. system(s) seem(s) all-around nuts. No budget for basics, little support for behavioural students... The country is going to get the citizens it creates.
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posted
In my personal experience too, what budget money the school I attended was able to get was used almost exclusively for athletics with almost zero support for any academic extra-curricular programs or the arts programs.
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quote:Originally posted by SteveRogers: In my personal experience too, what budget money the school I attended was able to get was used almost exclusively for athletics with almost zero support for any academic extra-curricular programs or the arts programs.
I was in my senior year before the school finally recognized that the drama department and the debate team are two separate programs who require two different and separate budgets. Up until that point our debate "team" never really competed anywhere because they couldn't afford basic transportation, and by the time I left school the drama department set design budget was largely just a couple of black 4x4 platforms. It sure was fun acting as Lord Rochefort in Three Musketeers with no set, at least we had the rented swords.
But you bet that both of the indoor basketball courts floors were gone over once a year, and that my history teacher gave out extra credit to anyone who could bring in a personal copy of Rudy. That is normal right?
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I was a member of the Scholar Bowl team in high school, and the only thing the school provided for us was bus transportation. If there were fees to compete, we had to raise it. When we needed new equipment after our original buzzer system shorted out and caught on fire, we had to pay for it out of our own pocket. The art teacher at my school only had school funding to buy supplies about halfway through the year most of the time and had to supplement art supplies the rest of the time with her own personal materials or things she purchased herself.
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I hate to use the bad word, but can a Teacher Union do anything to help?
There's plenty they could do. There's nothing they are going to do but make the situation worse overall. If you have any specific questions as to why, I can explain in detail.
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quote:Originally posted by Darth_Mauve: I hate to use the bad word, but can a Teacher Union do anything to help?
Depends on state laws. Maryland doesn't allow strikes, and the counties can ultimately overrule even arbitration decisions.
Technically it is not even a union I am in, but a $36 a paycheck association and liability insurance policy. $5 more than it costs NOT to be in the "union".
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And they likely would have sued if a school representative had forcibly restrained her.
