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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Presidential Election News & Discussion Center 2012 - Inauguration Day! (Page 0)

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Author Topic: Presidential Election News & Discussion Center 2012 - Inauguration Day!
Rakeesh
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Dan, that dynamic has happened at least a half-dozen times here on Hatrack. Chris knows it, BlackBlade knows it, I know it, hell at times Ron won't even deny parts of it.

Your standard of what is problematic is frankly absurd and, without intending to be ironic, disconnected from any consistent standard I can think of. Call someone a liar, lazy, and even an awful person-things Ron does routinely in political discussion-and warrant no discipline, but heaven help you if you assert illness, that-THAT-is beyond the pale.

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan_Frank:
quote:
Originally posted by Rakeesh:
He doesn't have to admit that, and remember: when he calls you an American-hating liar and traitor for pointing out his numerous factually, hugely wrong predictions, don't wonder aloud at the dubious rationality of his politics. Because that's beyond the pale.

Dude, I get that you're mostly just enjoying the thrill of sarcastically mocking someone, but this is so off from what happened.
you really don't read his posts, do you.
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Shigs
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Ron -

In today's increasingly secular world, the voices of people following God's will are drowned out, more and more.

Thank you for standing strong for God, and not being ashamed of following His directives. Thank you for making sure that God's voice remains at the table.

[ December 28, 2012, 04:18 PM: Message edited by: Shigs ]

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Chris Bridges
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Honestly, I don't believe he's being drowned out. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of people on this forum are theists of one type or another.

Ron is being asked to acknowledge when he's provably wrong, which he won't do, and to back up statements with something besides his interpretation of scripture.

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Samprimary
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quote:
New York magazine has a fascinating piece on the National Review magazine's Post Election Cruise 2012 in which roughly 600 Republicans took a vacation and tried to figure out what went wrong at the voting booths.

"This was a phenomenon that was common on the cruise--the conservative pundits and columnists from the National Review attempting to gently disinter their followers from unhelpful conservative propaganda. For people who believe in the truth of works like Dreams From My Real Father, a conspiracy-­theory documentary that argues that Obama's real father was a communist propagandist who turned Obama into a socialist Manchurian Candidate, this could be difficult work."


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Blayne Bradley
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Its going to be up to the Tea Party to save us from ourselves now through their crass idiocy.
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Shigs
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Congratulations Blayne, when did you become a United States citizen?
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Blayne Bradley
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e: Wait wait wait, I am not answering that question until I know one thing.

Who are you and whose alt are you because a new poster shouldn't know the fact that I'm Canadian without extensive lurking, and an extensive lurker wouldn't poke his head out just to be a god awful troll.

[ December 31, 2012, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Blayne Bradley ]

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Shigs
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I was just curious, is all. You seem to use the words "we" and "us" an awful lot when describing the politics of a nation that isn't your home.
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Shigs
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And to answer your question, my screen name is Shigs, and it always has been. I've already been through this with the peanut gallery.
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Orincoro
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Gotta give points to the lad for recognizing the reality of the situation.


Funny that Shigs knew Blayne was Canadian...

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Blayne Bradley
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My point though still stands, the US sneezes everyone else jumps.
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Shigs
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I know what you mean, I always skip over news stories about Canada too.
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Rakeesh
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Always has been, since Shigs registered in July and began posting half a year later to offer invalid (due to having failed to read) a thread about a poster's long-standing illness. Spoken, by the way, with none of the usual courteous caution one might expect of an actual newcomer in such a matter, but rather with an old-timer's sense of entitlement.

Much of that is of course subjective, and naturally I couldn't (and don't) swear to it. And had Shigs confined his (after six months) entry to Hatrack to foolish and crassly expressed opinions, I would be much more inclined to credit that useful skepticism to believe instinct. The part where he claimed to have read, though, was shown he hadn't, and then behaved as though he hadn't misstepped at all wore through that.

I'll put it another way: if you don't want to go through 'it' with the peanut gallery, Shigs, then if you're going to be hostile and insensitive when someone is posting about a frustrating personal experience, at least make sure you actually read what they say to base your criticism on.

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Shigs
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Thanks for the advice, Keesh. I'll give it all of the consideration that it deserves.
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Blayne Bradley
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Wow.
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Blayne Bradley
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http://www.gop.gov/bill/112/2/hr5652

House GOP Amendment I think, guts Obamacare.

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Samprimary
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John Boehner confirmed to CNN that he has told House Republicans he will no longer negotiate legislative deals with the president.
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BlackBlade
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
John Boehner confirmed to CNN that he has told House Republicans he will no longer negotiate legislative deals with the president.

I'm not surprised. Ever since the debt ceiling crisis where Boehner pulled out of talks, without any sense of manners I got the impression that things were hostile between them. It's only gotten worse since then.

Hopefully the House and the President will get back on speaking terms.

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Rakeesh
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We'll see if that tough talk (which I suspect is designed to soothe hurt Tea Party Republicans and sympathizers) lasts the two months until we've got another gun to our collective head. Much will depend, I think, on whether the public will still hold Republicans more responsible when that crisis is about to break...heck, it's about to break *now*, but I mean hours and days rather than weeks and months.
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jebus202
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Why is it so hard for the brain trust to figure out Shigosei = Shigs, they even posted in the same thread.
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Samprimary
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whatever, shigs
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rivka
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quote:
Originally posted by jebus202:
Why is it so hard for the brain trust to figure out Shigosei = Shigs, they even posted in the same thread.

Plus, their posting style is exactly the sa--

Hmm.

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jebus202
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Jesus, this is too much intricacy for me to handle. I'm out again.
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Samprimary
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i have in my hand a list of 205 posters known to be shigs
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
My point though still stands, the US sneezes everyone else jumps.

What would you prefer to have happened 70 years ago? Hitler or Japan win, maybe? Because everything that has followed was a result of that war.
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steven
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Shigs, unless you can answer why you knew Blayne was Canadian, then there's no other conclusion than you just being an alt.

I just can't think of which poster's style this is.

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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
My point though still stands, the US sneezes everyone else jumps.

What would you prefer to have happened 70 years ago? Hitler or Japan win, maybe? Because everything that has followed was a result of that war.
Non sequitor? I don't understand how this accurately responds to my point.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
My point though still stands, the US sneezes everyone else jumps.

What would you prefer to have happened 70 years ago? Hitler or Japan win, maybe? Because everything that has followed was a result of that war.
Non sequitor? I don't understand how this accurately responds to my point.
Your point was that the US has an inordinate amount of power/influence in the world, right? And is also too focused on controlling the rest of the world, right?

What else did you think could happen after WWII? the US was still pretty isolationist until then, and therefore not particularly likely to interfere much outside its borders and Central America.

After WWII, there were two sides, the winners and the losers. Of the winners, only the US was, in terms of manpower and infrastructure, relatively unscathed. Most of Europe was a giant mess, and deprived of an entire generation of men. The same for Japan.

The US was the only country large enough, with enough infrastructure, manpower, and know-how to dominate in manufacturing. At the same time, the US needed oil badly, to support its expansion (as did Europe) so it started interfering in the Middle East.

Everything followed from the conditions in September 1945. You can say that US foreign policy has been ignorant, shortsighted, self-serving, and rapacious, but...who would you have preferred to win, then? You really think Germany or Japan would, at this point, be as willing to accept dissent around the world?

The US may do some bad stuff in the world, but we're not running around killing the dissenters and journalists. I somehow doubt that the Third Reich or Imperial Japan would be so accepting of criticism.

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Blayne Bradley
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No that is not my point, (whether or not I agree with it is not relevant) but that is not my point, please try again, read back to the previous post, the response to it, and my response to that.
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steven
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Well, that last page was a little hard to follow, but I think I got it now.

Your point appears to have been that the world feared the fiscal cliff, right? And that the US has too much effect on the rest of the world?

If that's correct, then my whole post largely still stands. Everything follows from the results of WWII, Blayne. Somebody had to win, and that winner was going to dominate the world for the next 70+ years.

There are no "ifs". Write some alternate histories like Harry Turtledove if it makes you happy, but the world political/economic situation is the way it is today for very clear reasons.

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Blayne Bradley
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Someone's defensive.

But no, still wrong. Try again. I'll even drop a hint.

quote:

Congratulations Blayne, when did you become a United States citizen?

Try again.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Someone's defensive.

But no, still wrong. Try again. I'll even drop a hint.

quote:

Congratulations Blayne, when did you become a United States citizen?

Try again.
Blayne, I don't want to be mean, but I'm not interested enough to continue this discussion. Perhaps someone else is, though.
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Samprimary
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Usually not.
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Shigs
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
Shigs, unless you can answer why you knew Blayne was Canadian, then there's no other conclusion than you just being an alt.

I just can't think of which poster's style this is.

Or, you know, a lurker.
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Blayne Bradley
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quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Someone's defensive.

But no, still wrong. Try again. I'll even drop a hint.

quote:

Congratulations Blayne, when did you become a United States citizen?

Try again.
Blayne, I don't want to be mean, but I'm not interested enough to continue this discussion. Perhaps someone else is, though.
Of course you're not because you embarrassed yourself, you jumped to an entirely incorrect assumption because you didn't take a very good look at the context.

I'll be kind to you and magnanimously light the way for you as only someone as kind and wise as myself could; my point is that I as a Canadian, even though I am not American have every right to discuss US domestic politics because the US's unique position in the world has for the better or worse, a ways and means of affecting other countries economically and politically, Canada especially so due to our massive amount of overland trade.

And was in response to what seemed like the usual "why are you discussing US politics" from Shigs when I accidentally break out the "We's" which is easy enough mistake to make when 90% of your television is Merican'.

As for Shigs I've seen some similar posting styles from a few bad trolls from SA, I think they (FYAD) even have a contest going on to pick a website/subforum and troll it.

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Shigs
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Gosh Blayne you sure do seem to know a lot about this merry little band of trolls.
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
quote:
Originally posted by steven:
quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
Someone's defensive.

But no, still wrong. Try again. I'll even drop a hint.

quote:

Congratulations Blayne, when did you become a United States citizen?

Try again.
Blayne, I don't want to be mean, but I'm not interested enough to continue this discussion. Perhaps someone else is, though.
Of course you're not because you embarrassed yourself, you jumped to an entirely incorrect assumption because you didn't take a very good look at the context.

I'll be kind to you and magnanimously light the way for you as only someone as kind and wise as myself could; my point is that I as a Canadian, even though I am not American have every right to discuss US domestic politics because the US's unique position in the world has for the better or worse, a ways and means of affecting other countries economically and politically, Canada especially so due to our massive amount of overland trade.

And was in response to what seemed like the usual "why are you discussing US politics" from Shigs when I accidentally break out the "We's" which is easy enough mistake to make when 90% of your television is Merican'.

As for Shigs I've seen some similar posting styles from a few bad trolls from SA, I think they (FYAD) even have a contest going on to pick a website/subforum and troll it.

Why would you assume that I care if you talk about US politics?
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Mucus
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Probably because you responded to a disagreement as to whether Blayne should be commenting on US politics using words such as "we" and "us" [Wink]
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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Mucus:
Probably because you responded to a disagreement as to whether Blayne should be commenting on US politics using words such as "we" and "us" [Wink]

i just thought he was complaining about the huge effect that the US has on the rest of the world, relatively. It does, he's right. He's wrong that it could have gone down any other way, after Sept 1945, though. The US isn't led, on average, by people any better or worse than any other country's. We get the occasional Dubya, but other countries have their fools, too. I think it would be more ideal if the most powerful country were also a more politically moderate one, but....what else would you expect, given the history and geography of the US?
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ScottF
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"Most powerful" by definition precludes "politically moderate".
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Blayne Bradley
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"He's wrong that it could have gone down any other way"

What. When did I make this claim? You do realize your talking like a crazy person?

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
"Most powerful" by definition precludes "politically moderate".

In terms of a nation's power with respect to other nations? How so?
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ScottF
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Is there an example of the worlds most powerful nation at any given time being politically moderate?
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Mucus
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I find it difficult to wrap my mind around that question. How does one go about evaluating whether Victorian England, Tang Dynasty China, or early Imperial Rome were politically moderate or not?

quote:
Originally posted by steven:
i just thought he was complaining about the huge effect that the US has on the rest of the world ...

Well, he wasn't. He was justifying his use of pronouns, which makes this kind of funny.
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Blayne Bradley
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I would firstly argue that the question is probably nonsensical as nations are aggregates of people and political interests organized by historical happenstance to be a particular form of government at any one time and the amount of military or economical sway said powers may have I don't think has any bearing on how "moderate" the country or empire as a whole is.

Secondly I would have to ask how are we defining moderate? If we accept it generally as the middle position between two potentially extremist positions held by opposing factions within the government I find it difficult to conclude how could it be possible that there isn't a single government for all governments that doesn't have a moderate faction that holds the balance of power, at a minimum for a significant duration.

Thirdly since large powerful empires have been known first and foremost for their relative stability as opposed to whimsical projects its also difficult to really come to the conclusion that empires are generally extreme.

Which comes to my fourth point as to how do we define extremism in the absence of a definition for being moderate? Its willingness to use military force? Use of military force has been an accepted state practice since forever so its difficult to really determine it as extreme. Rapid conquests as opposed to border skirmishes? Again, accepted practice for the longest time until very recently and in many historical cases this was generally beneficial to the conquered party.

Lacking definitions I would consider the question and conclusion that powerful dominant hegemons are not politically moderate or whether they are moderate to be nonsensical.

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Rakeesh
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quote:
Originally posted by ScottF:
Is there an example of the worlds most powerful nation at any given time being politically moderate?

As Mucus highlights, the question is a complicated one. I was trying to pin down what you might mean by one of the terms, power, but political moderation is also vital to the question. Moderate with respect to whom? Other nations? Or moderate with respect to itself and its own vocal fringe elements? Or moderate along the lines of treating other nations with political moderation?

It's a big question, and it seems to me you haven't supported it other than to assert its truth.

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steven
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quote:
Originally posted by Blayne Bradley:
"He's wrong that it could have gone down any other way"

What. When did I make this claim? You do realize your talking like a crazy person?

I have misunderstood you, then.

But then, what even is the point of complaining about the extent of US power/influence? Who would you rather have been the most powerful nation for the last 70 years? A victorious Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan, maybe?

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Blayne Bradley
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Can you please quote where I made such a complaint?
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Lyrhawn
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Happening now. Long series of slow ass speeches, but I think Obama's is coming up soon.
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