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Author Topic: Cosmological Food For Thought
M81
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Consideration: We exist in within the universe and are made of its matter; we are part of the universe.

If you observed the universe from an outside perspective and saw a person looking into the sky on a starry night, you would see the universe observing itself as two different forms of matter.

We, as Humans made of matter, are the universe trying to solve itself. Perhaps this is why we find space so beautiful.

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BlackBlade
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My definition of the universe contains absolutely everything that is. It's impossible to observe from outside it.
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M81
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This is for the sake of a thought experiment.

By your definition, then:

If you had a picture of a person looking into the sky on a starry night, you would have a picture of the universe observing itself.

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Szymon
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If you were looking at a picture of a person looking into the sky on a starry night, you would have a Universe observing a picture of itself observing itself.

My definition of the Universe contains everything with the same laws of physics. You can imagine a Universe, were you cannot look on a picture of a starry night without having to become a star first, then moving back in time, then clapping twice.

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Samprimary
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a crude local and minuscule organization of matter that lives on the surface of a very specific type of planetary mass, possessing limited powers of observation through chemical processes that grant it a form of sapience, is observing photonic discharge from stars as it passes his photoreceptory organs. it attaches some form of emotional significance or subjective notion of 'beauty' to this phenomenon, likely because it was a common observed environ through millions upon millions of years of the collective evolutionary chain of base biological processes of its ancestors leading up to this particular organism. it likes to envision itself as connected to a greater whole or find spiritual significance in that the observable universe is all matter the same as is the biochemical hive that gives it its processing power.

also, this organism is high on weeeeeeed

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kmbboots
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Cosmological doritos for thought?
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advice for robots
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Yeah, is it possible to get fat on those?

I figure if I'm standing watching the stars, I'm preventing the light that's hitting my retinas from going any farther and thus altering what was perhaps supposed to happen.

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Samprimary
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doritos ain't the worst thing you could be shoveling down your gullet. as usual if you want to super slam your body, go for soda.
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M81
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I find it strange that reality exists at all. As opposed to simply not existing.
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Samprimary
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Well as long as you're not inventing "pinary" or discovering that "Magnetism is the SuperSymmetry of Gravity" these days abouts then that strangeness is a fine thing indeed
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M81
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There are people needlessly dying across the globe in this world we live in. AIDS, ebola, what have you. I'm content to devote my time and energy to being kind and focusing on self improvement rather than dwell on things which cannot be changed.
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M81
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Here enjoy this original thought experiment:

Imagine a train speeding through the stars. You are seated at a window as the train accelerates through space-time towards the speed of light.

You have a stopwatch in your hand. Just outside of the train is an infinite line of clocks. You can clearly read them from your seat and they all read the same time.

As the train accelerates, the clocks would appear to move faster and faster while the stopwatch in your hand ticked away at its constant pace.

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Samprimary
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ok
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Szymon
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Not ok, it's impossible. How can a clock move slower or faster? Clock is a clock, by definition it moves at the same pace all the time, for Christ's sake.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by advice for robots:
Yeah, is it possible to get fat on those?

Sure. Not much to sink your teeth into, though.
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dkw
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quote:
Originally posted by Szymon:
Not ok, it's impossible. How can a clock move slower or faster? Clock is a clock, by definition it moves at the same pace all the time, for Christ's sake.

Not so! The clock in my bedroom keeps speeding up.

The whole "train speeding through the stars" bit is a problem, though. Where would you lay the tracks?

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M81
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What we are discussing is general relativity. Since the clocks exist in an external frame of inertial reference, they would be subject to a different rate of the passage of time. Similar to Einstein's example of the two twins. If one were riding a light beam and the other wa stationary relative to that twin, the first would experience time dilation and age far less than the twin existing in an external frame of inertial reference.

The clocks outside the train are stationary relative to the inside. The outside clocks are the stationary twin. The stopwatch is analogous to the twin riding the light beam. The stopwatch would experience far less time than the outside clocks due to general relativity.

Since the clocks outside the train would be aging at an accelerated rate relative the stopwatch, their hands would move faster than that of the stopwatch.

"Make things as simple as they can be, but no simpler."
-Albert Einstein

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M81
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It can't be done
William J Bennett

The man who misses all the fun
Is he who says "It can't be done."
In solemn pride he stands aloof
And greets each venture with reproof.
Had he the power he'd efface
The history of the human race;
We'd have no radio or motorcars,
no street lit by electric stars;
No telegraph or telephone we'd linger in the age of stone.
The world would sleep if things were run
by men who say "It can't be done."

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scifibum
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Isn't that special relativity?

quote:
Originally posted by dkw:
The whole "train speeding through the stars" bit is a problem, though. Where would you lay the tracks?

Star Track Voyager took care of this.
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Lyrhawn
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quote:
Originally posted by M81:
Consideration: We exist in within the universe and are made of its matter; we are part of the universe.

If you observed the universe from an outside perspective and saw a person looking into the sky on a starry night, you would see the universe observing itself as two different forms of matter.

We, as Humans made of matter, are the universe trying to solve itself. Perhaps this is why we find space so beautiful.

Been watching Babylon 5 lately?
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Szymon
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M81, even if you were right and the clocks would magically slow down, after the train started decelerating, the clocks would (again, magically) speed up. After reaching it's destination, all would be just like at the beginning, now, wouldn't it?

I say it is too expensive an experiment. We shouldn't invest in it.

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Xavier
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quote:
M81, even if you were right and the clocks would magically slow down, after the train started decelerating, the clocks would (again, magically) speed up. After reaching it's destination, all would be just like at the beginning, now, wouldn't it?
Are you not familiar with the theory of relativity? It's sort of a big deal in physics. Say I have two identical clocks and take a space voyage with one and leave the other on earth. When I return to earth, the clock I left behind will be show a time further ahead than the one I took with me. It's not magic, and it has been proven experimentally.

(Forgive me if I am just not understanding your point.)

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Samprimary
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quote:
Originally posted by M81:
What we are discussing is general relativity. Since the clocks exist in an external frame of inertial reference, they would be subject to a different rate of the passage of time. Similar to Einstein's example of the two twins. If one were riding a light beam and the other wa stationary relative to that twin, the first would experience time dilation and age far less than the twin existing in an external frame of inertial reference.

The clocks outside the train are stationary relative to the inside. The outside clocks are the stationary twin. The stopwatch is analogous to the twin riding the light beam. The stopwatch would experience far less time than the outside clocks due to general relativity.

Since the clocks outside the train would be aging at an accelerated rate relative the stopwatch, their hands would move faster than that of the stopwatch.

"Make things as simple as they can be, but no simpler."
-Albert Einstein

ok
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scifibum
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I had Galactic Nachos for lunch.
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Szymon
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quote:
Originally posted by Xavier:
quote:
M81, even if you were right and the clocks would magically slow down, after the train started decelerating, the clocks would (again, magically) speed up. After reaching it's destination, all would be just like at the beginning, now, wouldn't it?
Are you not familiar with the theory of relativity? It's sort of a big deal in physics. Say I have two identical clocks and take a space voyage with one and leave the other on earth. When I return to earth, the clock I left behind will be show a time further ahead than the one I took with me. It's not magic, and it has been proven experimentally.

(Forgive me if I am just not understanding your point.)

It's ok, it wasn't a good point anyway.
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Samprimary
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i discovered relativity just this evening
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M81
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The Embedding Effect

Our train is now infinitely long. As you step out of the train car you enter the one in front of you. Along the aisle is a set of miniature train tracks which extend as far as the eye can see. There is a miniature train as well. There are clocks running alongside it, just as there are clocks outside of the larger train.

This miniature train accelerates while yours is traveling at light speed. The passage of time for the miniature train would be relative only to the inside of the larger train. That is to say, the train cabin would be to the miniature train, as space would be to the larger train.

The passage of time within the miniature train would be relative to the larger train exactly as the passage of time within the larger train would be to the space-time outside of it.

A miniature stopwatch within this train would experience a difference in time relative to the clocks alongside it exactly the same as the stopwatch in your hand would experience a difference in time relative to the clocks in space.

Simply put, just as the larger train is embedded within space-time, the miniature train is embedded within the larger train.

However, the miniature train could not exceed the speed of light, and adding to the speed of the train within which it is embedded, could only travel at 99% of c.

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