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Author Topic: Ballghazi
theamazeeaz
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As you may know, one of the teams that is going to this year's Superbowl, the New England Patriots, was accused of using under-inflated footballs (which makes them easier to work with in cold weather).

I heard that the offensive side always uses their own balls.

I don't really care for football (I will watch a fraction of the Super Bowl, but avoid it if I can), but growing up in Pats territory and moving out west, I've only recently heard they are the Yankees of football to everyone else.

Does anyone here have strong feelings on this and want to be an armchair quaterback? Or because this is a sci-fi forum, y'all like football even less than I do? [Dont Know]

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JanitorBlade
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Oh I quite willingly heap scorn on the Patriots. I hope they do find the balls were deflated and invalidate their win, then let the other team go to the Super Bowl.
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stilesbn
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I'm not a fan of the Seahawks, but only because of Richard Sherman. I'm ambivalent towards the Patriots but I don't follow NFL much anyway. Only passively, though that might change now that I'm in Texas and live in a city with an actual pro team for the first time in my life.

Why don't I like Richard Sherman? Because of all the trash talks he makes. It's impressive that he always lives up to the talk as far as I can tell, but even if you are that good and always right it still doesn't make it classy.

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GaalDornick
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11 of the 12 balls the Patriots' offense used were significantly under-inflated from the 12.5 PSI minimum they were measured at before the game. That's no accident. Brady is saying he didn't notice it during the game, I don't buy a word of it. If you've ever thrown a fully-inflated football, it's almost as hard as a rock and much tougher to throw and catch than if the ball is under-inflated and you can squeeze your fingers into it. They're not going to disqualify the Patriots from the SB but I'm curious to see what kind of punishment the NFL hands out for this one.
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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by stilesbn:
Why don't I like Richard Sherman? Because of all the trash talks he makes. It's impressive that he always lives up to the talk as far as I can tell, but even if you are that good and always right it still doesn't make it classy.

Trash talk is a part of every sport. Most athletes do it. Trash talking doesn't bother me, what does is this growing trend of diving/flopping/embellishment (every sport has a different name for it). That significantly detracts from a game's entertainment value, IMO.
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Lyrhawn
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In part Im too bitter to care because the Lions seemingly got screwed out of advancing a round.

But rules are rules. Football may be taken way too seriously, but if rules don't matter (and based on the last lions game I wonder) then who bother caring?

I think they should lose their first round draft pick next year.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
11 of the 12 balls the Patriots' offense used were significantly under-inflated from the 12.5 PSI minimum they were measured at before the game. That's no accident. Brady is saying he didn't notice it during the game, I don't buy a word of it. If you've ever thrown a fully-inflated football, it's almost as hard as a rock and much tougher to throw and catch than if the ball is under-inflated and you can squeeze your fingers into it. They're not going to disqualify the Patriots from the SB but I'm curious to see what kind of punishment the NFL hands out for this one.

Honestly, I would completely support them having the AFC championship taken away as part of the punishment. This isn't the first time they've been caught cheating, and they have a long reputation of playing dirty. Losing their draft pick was the punishment last time and it clearly wasn't a strong enough deterrent, I feel like the NFL needs to do something more drastic to send the message home.
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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by theamazeeaz:
I've only recently heard they are the Yankees of football to everyone else.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/01/22/win-lose-patriots-have-sacrificed-their-legacy/XIYx6wws1NpEn1h82kMtwO/story.html is a pretty good summary of the situation. They're pretty much the most universally reviled team in the NFL.
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Kwea
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That happens when you win, constantly, for 10-15 years.

It's not rocket science, people. The balls were measure, per the rules, inside at about 74 degrees F. The game was played in temps in the high 40's. About a 21 degree difference.

There has been NO official info about how much of a pressure difference there was, or if the Colts balls were different as well, or by what degree they were different if any.

Ever have to add air to your tires in the winter?

According to the science, if there was a 21 degree difference in temps (there was), there could be a 1.2-1.5 lbs difference in pressure per ball.

As far as the taping years ago....old news. They didn't file paperwork they should have, and the footage they got was no different from years prior, when it was legal. hell, not only legal, but their head coach had been the one responsible for taping it (with or without paperwork).

Oh...BTW, the second half they used new balls, all properly inflated. You know, the second half, where the colts were outscored 28-0.

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Bokonon
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Kwea, haters gonna hate [Smile]

On the admittedly biased Boston radio shows, they were reporting ~2lbs under the limit.

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Samprimary
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I guess it's too bad that the patriots have sort of established themselves as the sort of operation that would try to pull this off.

Well whatever I am super glad this is news and not domestic abuse scandals or traumatic brain encephalopathy or whatever, blahblah deflategate

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vegimo
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nR/V is a constant, so P/T is a constant.

P1/T1 = P2/T2

P2 = P1T2/T1

Say P1 = 12.5 (the lowest acceptable value), T1 = 295.4 (a bit over 72F), and T2 = 283 (right about 50F)

P2 would = about 12.0

The 0.5psi calculated drop accounts for only about 1/4 of the observed drop. This supports the theory that the balls were deflated intentionally.


edit:
oh Balls!
I used Kelvin but not absolute pressure. Adding 14.7 to the starting pressure yields a calculated final pressure of about 25.8, or a measurable 11.1.

This puts the final pressure in Kwea's range (sorry for doubting your math), assuming that the measurements were done out on the field and not back inside at halftime.

[ January 24, 2015, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: vegimo ]

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Dogbreath
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Since the NFL is doing a fairly serious investigation into this, and seeing that there are people who literally get paid to check how inflated balls are and that football is played outside in the cold *all the time*, I would assume that they either brought the balls back inside and/or did some basic math and adjusted for temperature when measuring the pressure of the ball. Just an assumption, mind you.
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Kwea
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I am not saying there wasn't tampering, just that there was a rush to judgement. And question my math, always. I am pretty good at a lot of things, but math is NOT usually one of them [Big Grin]

I would like to know how much the balls from the Colts side changed. Not if they were under....if they were inflated to the higher side of the accepted range they would have lost pressure and STILL been properly inflated. What was the CHANGE...if there was one.

Also....some teams keep the balls near a heater, some don't. Not actually HEATING them, whihc is a no-no, but close to one, whihc would have an effect as well, mitigating the changes.

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Wingracer
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I had heard that the balls were being taken to be weighed. I'm guessing they check pressure by checking weight instead of a pressure measurement. If so, temp wouldn't affect the weight would it?
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Orincoro
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I don't know about that. How much weig would 1.5 psi actually add? It can't be that much can it?
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Dogbreath
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Well, I know normal, uncompressed air weighs 0.08 pounds per cubic foot at 1 atm. I tried searching this question for some time, only to find people who couldn't understand the difference between weight and mass and tried to lecture about how everything in the universe has mass, no shit sherlock, right? But a difference of 2 PSI in a football (which is less than a cubic foot) is a fraction of an ounce, and probably very difficult to weigh. I don't think that's how they checked the pressure.
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GaalDornick
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Bill Nye's response to Bill Belichick's claims:

http://youtu.be/6ttq6s7VnQM

Though in the clip ABC shows it doesn't show if Bill Nye addresses the temperature issue and I couldn't find the full video.

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theamazeeaz
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Since the NFL is doing a fairly serious investigation into this, and seeing that there are people who literally get paid to check how inflated balls are and that football is played outside in the cold *all the time*, I would assume that they either brought the balls back inside and/or did some basic math and adjusted for temperature when measuring the pressure of the ball. Just an assumption, mind you.

This. As someone who just watches Pats championship games and Superbowls, the Pats are known to be very very good in cold weather.

All the examples have involved 40 weather 70 degrees inflation temperature differences. The Pats have played in much colder weather. The Colts played in that same weather.

Presumably their balls would be exactly the same, or someone thought about this before.

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Dogbreath
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*nods* Since football pressure is checked at least once a game, and played in the cold every time, I somehow doubt this is a case of the pressure-checker-guy not understanding basic physics. I can imagine him sitting on the couch watching evil lil' Bill and crew and thinking "Yes, I am a professional and have been checking football pressure for x number of years, and since football is played in the winter (and since presumably I have a high school education) I am well aware of the fact that the pressure will drop when it gets colder, but noooo, I totally forgot to account for that when I checked the pressure on the ball this one time. Ha ha, what a spaz"
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Dogbreath
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Also, an interesting application of statistics to the issue: http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2015/01/23/deflated-patriots-statistically-impossible-fumble-record/

I'm curious to see how far the investigation goes, and what the result will be. Hopefully they start looking at other games over the past few years.

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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
*nods* Since football pressure is checked at least once a game, and played in the cold every time, I somehow doubt this is a case of the pressure-checker-guy not understanding basic physics

But the footballs are always checked once a game before the game. AFAIK, they're not normally checked again during halftime. This case was different because there was a complaint on the Colts' side after an interception and the player handed the ball to his own equipment manager. I also don't think it's an unreasonable possibility that the pressure-checker-guy, AKA the referee, was not aware that air pressure drops in cold weather. I doubt referees are tested for basic knowledge of physics before being hired.

[ January 25, 2015, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: GaalDornick ]

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Dogbreath
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You seriously think this became a huge scandal because literally nobody in the process - from the ref to the individuals now conducting the investigation - know that pressure is related to temperature? I mean, if none of them made it through high school, surely they've heard the term pressure cooker, or felt a bottle of compressed air go cold after being released, or used an air conditioner, or watched the weather, or...

Also, why would the Colts defense report the underfilled ball in the first place if it was normal? Surely he's played football in the cold hundreds of times before, what made this one different?

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Risuena
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Not to mention that there are reports that the Colts thought the balls were underinflated when they played the Pats in Indy in November.

And that was in a dome, so temperature shouldn't have affected the pressure.

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Kwea
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LOL....it would depend, guys. If the PAts like it inflated to the min, and the colts prefer the max, the difference in pressure WOULD make the Pats balls under in cold weather, and even more so in cold WET weather, as wet means they would cool faster.

At the same time, the Colts balls would still be within standards.


I am not saying yes, or no. I am saying people are freaking idiots, and love to jump to conclusions.

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Kwea
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Not to mention the Pats had more offence going...and 1000 lbs of heavy men on top of a ball will cause the sealant between the leather and rubber leak. [Big Grin]

I've seen that myself, with NFL quality footballs.

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Samprimary
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The patriots probably did it. Moving on, what should the appropriate punishment be? More or less than if an nfl player is repeatedly beating his wife or kids
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Dogbreath
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Well, it's going to be a different type of punishment, seeing as this is something the team did, not a player on the team. Worst case scenario (and what will probably happen) is they'll find a patsy and blame him for it and he'll get sacked, and that'll be that. If they decide to actually punish the whole team, then who knows.

A NFL player convicted of beating his wife/kids should be fired. I don't know how that works with contracts and so on, but there should probably be a stipulation that says "if you beat your wife and or child(ren) this contract is null and void" or something.

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Geraine
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quote:
Originally posted by Dogbreath:
Well, it's going to be a different type of punishment, seeing as this is something the team did, not a player on the team. Worst case scenario (and what will probably happen) is they'll find a patsy and blame him for it and he'll get sacked, and that'll be that. If they decide to actually punish the whole team, then who knows.

A NFL player convicted of beating his wife/kids should be fired. I don't know how that works with contracts and so on, but there should probably be a stipulation that says "if you beat your wife and or child(ren) this contract is null and void" or something.

I think that would depend on the type of relationship. Are NFL players contract labor? Are they W-2 employees? The nature of the business relationship could possibly make a difference in what the NFL or team can do to a player.

A team is a whole other ball game. (pun totally intended)

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