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Author Topic: Hatrack Apology Palace
Stone_Wolf_
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For apologizing without bogging down original threads.

Hopefully I'll be posting here less and less as maturity slowly seeps into my system against my will as I age.

[ February 21, 2015, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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TomDavidson
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In fact, you can come into this thread to post something, then realize you don't need to post in it and leave that thing completely unsaid.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Hey...I said in a couple of days.

Grrrrrrr & other animal sounds.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Or maybe it was just sound advice.

Like you gave me in the Dear... thread.

But not the econ thread tho...can't say that was well said.

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Samprimary
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i am posting in this high quality thread
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Thesifer
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Where am I? What are we doing here?
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CT
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We're looking for hope for paws?
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Wingracer
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Uh, woof.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Heya friend DogBreath...

Can we agree it got a bit heated back there and try and reset to more useful discussion? [Smile]

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Dogbreath
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Sure. Knock yourself out.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Not exactly what I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
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Rakeesh
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I'm speculating, but perhaps Dogbreath is frustrated at the implication that this means we will be skipping the previously mentioned 'I'll show you how you've been such a rude, arrogant jerk to me repeatedly over the years and it'll be so clear as to be irrefutable'. Particularly since that stuff was referenced twice by you as the source of your hostility towards him, and the justification for it.

Now it's possible you weren't suggesting that you wouldn't be following through on this background referencing you've mentioned twice. If that's the case, then I'm sorry for bringing it up and I admit I was wrong about it. If however that *is* what you mean, well then frankly in the spirit of this thread it's a chickenshit move given that you've liberally heaped out scorn and insult to the guy lately and your rejection of criticism has been that he's just as bad and you'll prove it.

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Stone_Wolf_
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That criticism is fair, so I will undertake to follow through as calmly & without causing further escalation as possible.

I reread the discussion in preparation to do just that & want acknowledge that DogBreath made -serious- efforts at discussion and that hostilities were not constant, but built to current levels like a bell curve...lot's at the end.

Also I'll downgrade "baiting" to "obviously annoyed"...i e DB wasn't deliberately trying to get me to blow up, he just seemed to be getting frustrated.

My lack of peer interactions as a child & adult have left me with a few rough edges. Sorry bout that. I'm working on it.

I'm leaning (slowly) that not all precived slights are personal attacks which need to be stridently defended.

I didn't stand up for myself as an adolescent & tend to over correct.

More to come...

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Rakeesh
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Well, I'll say this: while I have certainly screwed with you deliberately in the past-my recollection of this was that it stemmed initially from disagreements on more serious gabbing about politics, current events, etc., and eventually built into a more personal antagonism-I haven't ever gotten that impression about Dogbreath before.

It might be useful to consider that: that someone who explicitly admits they've baited and busted on you hasn't seen that sort of thing in someone else. In fact, if asked before this kerfluffle, I would've probably put Dogbreath in the same category of people you mentioned who could be relied upon to disagree respectfully but also seriously advance a conversation. On a more personal level, and thus more subject to my own biases, maybe consider that your dislike for folks such as Samprimary and myself has colored your reaction to Dogbreath, just because he has shared opinions with us sometimes.

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Dogbreath
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Rakeesh: Thank you for the kind words.

As far as the shortness of my reply: I think it's less frustration and more that I'm completely nonplussed with how to deal with this situation, or whether any longer reply would be considered provocation. My last attempt at conciliation was rebuffed with claims that I was lying, needed to be "donkey kicked", and that he would "copy & paste so GD much that you will be incapable of spewing such half truths & out and out lies." My attempts to discover or ameliorate whatever caused this hostility have been dismissed as "whining."

So while regrettable, I'm sure you can understand some hesitation on my part to enthusiastically embrace this sudden change of heart. Which isn't to say I'm suspicious or unforgiving (assuming it's meant an apology), just jaded and unsure of whether further involvement in the matter is productive or healthy.

As far as the cause of the dislike, I'm as baffled as you are, and not for lack of trying to figure it out. I'm introspective enough to know that the extemporaneous writing style I employ in the majority of my posts may make me appear harsher or more acerbic than intended, but in an environment like this I assume an implied cordiality in the tone and subtext I read into other people's posts and hope they make the same assumption.

In the handful of times I have rubbed people the wrong way here (and it has happened before), it's generally resolved with a "do you really mean to say this?" and an explanation and/or apology. I don't think I've ever experienced this sheer level of antipathy before.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I don't dislike any of the three of you.

Samp & my relationship has had rocks, but as my skin thickens I have noted no specific dislike from him to me nor the other way around.

I don't even dislike you Rakeesh. I just don't always trust that you have the nessessary perspective when it comes to me...nor I you. We have hurt each other & it can be hard to trust where pain has been involved.

As to DogBreath, I do not dislike him either, however I'm finding it very difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt as to why he can not admit to even being annoyed nor responding to several attempted descalations on my part, not to mention some very candid self exploration.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

As to DogBreath, I do not dislike him either,

Considering the multiple threats of violence, mockery of my career, accusations of lying and whining, insults, etc. I would hate to see how you treat people you *don't* like.

quote:
however I'm finding it very difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt as to why he can not admit to even being annoyed
When?

quote:
nor responding to several attempted descalations on my part,
What?

quote:
not to mention some very candid self exploration.
About what?
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Stone_Wolf_
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"Verbal bitch slap" isn't a physical threat...nor was donkey kick ...it was a reference to overwhelming evidence. I'm sorry that if you thought I was threatening you. However...since i didn't this seems a good example of overstatement on your part.

Kids...snacks...wash hands...don't put that in your mouth!...be right back.

* edited for clarity

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Rakeesh
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Dogbreath's interpretation of remarks like those is plainly an example of bad communication on your part, not overstatement on his. If it had happened a single time, and without ample evidence of significant hostility I suspect Dogbreath would have asked 'did you mean that?'

But when you reference (supposed) years of hostility, use words like rate and pathetic and lying and dog and so on and so forth, someone pointing out that you're using threatening language isn't an overstatement.

You don't have any evidence of this grudge and hostility on his part. I don't say that you're lying, because I do believe that is how you feel sincerely. But I also believe at this point that you do, in fact, hugely overestimate the hostility and antagonism from him to you now and in the past. It's just not there, man.

Look, it's a risk but you made this thread with a purpose in mind so I'll go ahead. Imagine for a moment another hypothetical person with as much hostility and contempt for you which you have repeatedly accused Dogbreath of having for you. This guy loves to put you down and point out that you're stupid, in his mind. Then in a discussion about guns you directly and with mockery challenge and scorn his military service as a source of experience with firearms. As it turns out, he's actually got combat experience-and you don't.

I'm not mentioning this to rake you over the coals but rather to ask: this hypothetical person who is such a jerk and has such scorn for you that it can easily be shown over years with evidence...wouldn't he relish in making you eat shit over that for a good long while?

If he didn't-and Dogbreath didn't-isn't it potentially useful to ask whether or not your evaluation of this hypothetical guy that loves to mock you might not be mistaken?

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Stone_Wolf_
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This was something I wanted to address. The part about the intel comment...I knew (barely) irl a marine...who told me specifically that he had sought out the intel mos -specifically- to avoid combat. His words were "they arm the secretaries before I would have to"...when I aked why he joined the corpus if he wished to avoid combat...to pick up girls.

I emailed DogBreath that with an apology. And haven't heard back. I made a public blanket apology. No reply other than that it is irrelevant. Upon hearing I sent him multiple emails of apology & explanation DogBreath's response was...I don't remember giving you my email address. Here is a goid example of me attempting de escalation and meeting nothing but anger and scorn.

I knew it was smart ass when I said it...however I did have DB mistaken with someone else...someone worthy of a ribbing.

I had chosen not to explain this publicly for fear of being not believed, as there are some who actually have decen reason not to trust me. It's hard to look back on some of my past interactions with pride. However...I do take pride that in the last decade here I've made progress...mostly in questioning my own motivations.

I do treasure some lessons that I learned here...which I'm sure cost some people some...thing...in dealing with me. But now I know some new stuff..like men are not more observant than women in general & 911 was not a government conspiracy and just killing all violent offenders is not a good idea.

Anyway...More to come...

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
"Verbal bitch slap" isn't a physical threat...nor was donkey kick ...it was a reference to overwhelming evidence.

This is the third time you've mentioned this overwhelming evidence. Evidence of what? What theory does your evidence support? Where is it? You've referred to it variously as evidence that justifies the way you've been treating me, or evidence that proves I'm lying (lying about what?), but you seem to have difficulty articulating what it is exactly. Why?

quote:
I'm sorry that if you thought I was threatening you. However...since i didn't this seems a good example of overstatement on your part.
I accept your apology.

quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
This was something I wanted to address. The part about the intel comment...I knew (barely) irl a marine...who told me specifically that he had sought out the intel mos -specifically- to avoid combat. His words were "they arm the secretaries before I would have to"...when I aked why he joined the corpus if he wished to avoid combat...to pick up girls.

You generally have less choice what MOS you get assigned in the Marines than you think. When I signed my contract in July of 2009 they were pretty desperate for people and gave you some say in the matter. You took several aptitude tests (I personally took the ASVAB and the DLAB) and they showed you a list of available MOS's for your aptitude level, and then they tried to get you assigned to the MOS that you choose. Sometimes it happens, sometimes that MOS is full and you either sign for a different one or just wait until it opens up (which might be weeks, months, or years), and often people just sign "open contracts" which mean they just get told where to go after finishing SOI.

Also, you generally have almost no choice about whether or not you deploy or go into combat. They typically don't walk into a room and ask "hey, who here wants to go get shot at or possibly blown apart?" They just send you.

Also, your friend is wrong about Intel Marines not seeing combat. Quite a few have been in combat in the past 2 wars, some have been wounded or killed. Our enemies don't discriminate based on MOS, nor do IEDs or mortars or suicide bombers. I had a very easy time in the Marine Corps and got through unscathed physically and mentally, others were not so lucky.

That's all beside the point, though. I don't think it's ok to mock or deride or belittle *anyone* for their life or career choices, military or not. Like, if you were a clown stripper or something, I would still treat you with dignity and respect.

quote:
Upon hearing I sent him multiple emails of apology & explanation DogBreath's response was...I don't remember giving you my email address. Here is a goid example of me attempting de escalation and meeting nothing but anger and scorn.
"Anger and scorn" or polite confusion? The e-mail address you mentioned isn't one that I've used for several years, and indeed belongs to a telecommunication company that is now out of business. I'm generally very cautious about giving out my personal e-mail.

That being said, the only reason your comments to me about my MOS keep getting brought up is because you continue to say I'm just "whining" or that you have some evidence (again, what evidence?) that justifies it. I'll note that this time it was brought up by Rakeesh, and he used the fact that I *haven't* been using it against you to try and convince you of my lack of hostility. The only mention of it I make in this post is to disagree with your friend's assessment of his MOS, and to state I don't think it's ok to "rib" anyone about their personal life.

So again let me ask you, why are you so agitated? Why are you so sure that I'm being hostile towards you? Why did you accuse me of lying, and what exactly do you think I'm lying about? What is the evidence you keep referring to?

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Stone_Wolf_
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Evidence of your hostility...lies about your lack thereof.

I'm taking the wife for botox in the head (only works for pain relief in 50% or so...but we need to poke you thirty or so times with a needle in the head at least on three separate occasions to know if it will help...ahhh modern medicine...better than the alternative tho)...so I again have limited time.

It's not an excuse...I really am very busy.

However I promise that any accusation I have made will be presented with evidence or retracted with apology...just be patient please.

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Rakeesh
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If Dogbreath is hostile to you, he has a very unusual and understated way of showing it. Since it doesn't seem to have had the strength of meaning I intended, I'll put it more plainly: if I or most people I know were hostile to someone, and the person they were hostile towards pulled that Intel stunt, I would have taken overt satisfaction in roasting them verbally and pointing out repeatedly and in public how obnoxious and foolish that person was.

Dogbreath didn't donthat even *before* the blanket apology (which was dragged out of you) or email to an address he no longer uses, and he certainly didn't do it after. This is simply absurd. I don't doubt you feel he is hostile towards you, or even that he is lying about it, but consider that his behavior is not how hostile people act. When someone is hostile and they would use any one of a half dozen very sharp and powerful insults I can think off off-hand in response to that with authority and without public blame. If that is hostility, then when you use the term you refer to something which isn't shown by behavior.

For Pete's sake, I've been more confrontational about it than he ever was and you've made your contempt and certainty about my hostility and contempt for you clear many times over the past few years. Is Dogbreath running some clever game? Are we colluding? How is this person who so blatantly didn't hammer you on something when they could hostile to you?

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Samprimary
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the problem with having a dogpile thread is that the individuals for whom absolute contempt must be reserved are largely just gone. if you really want a dogpile thread, y'all gotta go drag some very special people back from their salty, hoary, insane netherworlds. someone wanna go drag lisa back and have her explain why she wants israel to be ethnically cleansed for the future of ~tru judaism~ or whatever? shall we have another Assuredly Not Clive appear and lecture us on FEMALES and their EROTIC CAPITAL? Someone want to bring Bean Counter literally back from the dead so he can tell us all about how iraqis are morally weak humans by nature and that we are best served putting radio collars on them to control the country at minimal risk to superior American lives?

NAH WE'RE GOOD LET'S JUST NOT HAVE FITE THREADS

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Stone_Wolf_
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Rakeesh...are you suggesting that I skip the part where I explain my why I feel what I feel...and just take your word for it? I doubt that DB would find that solution acceptable.

Samp...I count on your help to not allow this thread slip into mere fighting. After all this I -owe- DB full explanations and hope that at the end of this we can both identify within ourselves how we can interact in the future without setting of each other's defenses. Sometimes its more about finding out each others sensitive areas so that we can stay off each other's toes than declaing one person "wrong" & the "right".

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:

I'm taking the wife for botox in the head (only works for pain relief in 50% or so...but we need to poke you thirty or so times with a needle in the head at least on three separate occasions to know if it will help...ahhh modern medicine...better than the alternative tho)...so I again have limited time.

I hope everything goes well.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Thanks DB!

I really do not want to fight with you...but instead work on this until we have defused it & can prevent it from reoccurring. [Smile]

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GaalDornick
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quote:
Originally posted by Samprimary:
the problem with having a dogpile thread is that the individuals for whom absolute contempt must be reserved are largely just gone. if you really want a dogpile thread, y'all gotta go drag some very special people back from their salty, hoary, insane netherworlds. someone wanna go drag lisa back and have her explain why she wants israel to be ethnically cleansed for the future of ~tru judaism~ or whatever? shall we have another Assuredly Not Clive appear and lecture us on FEMALES and their EROTIC CAPITAL? Someone want to bring Bean Counter literally back from the dead so he can tell us all about how iraqis are morally weak humans by nature and that we are best served putting radio collars on them to control the country at minimal risk to superior American lives?

NAH WE'RE GOOD LET'S JUST NOT HAVE FITE THREADS

I think it world be fun to lure some Tea Partiers or "Obama is a Muslim-loving traitor" Conservatives and have some high quality political discussions with them.

Should inject some life into this place.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
Rakeesh...are you suggesting that I skip the part where I explain my why I feel what I feel...and just take your word for it? I doubt that DB would find that solution acceptable.

Coincidentally Rakeesh's "word" happens to be that he believes I'm telling the truth. (which I also happen to believe, being myself) So if you took Rakeesh's word for it and believed me, then I would very much find that solution acceptable.

I am very curious why, after numerous, numerous attempts by various people to explain this to you, you continue to insist that I'm lying about not being hostile towards you. What motive would I have to lie to you about that?

You seem to have more than enough time to attack me, call me a liar, insult me, ridicule me, start "dogpile" threads to talk about how awful I am, but you can't seem to find the time to present any of all the "overwhelming evidence" you keep referring to. Why? And again, if all this evidence exists, why can't anyone else see it?

These are simple questions Stone_Wolf, and I'm asking - before you launch another tirade against me and what a liar you think I am - you take a few minutes to answer them.

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Stone_Wolf_
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I don't think you are consciously lying...thus the nessessity of evidence. I think you have fallen into the exact same trap I did at your age when I started posting under this name...reacting and then, not being self critical enough to recognize the self deseption.

I think if you were objective about this you would recognize how obviously annoyed & frustrated you are, as well as that (at this point) I'm perfectly calm.

Also I'm sitting in a waiting room. It isn't simple or fast what I'm going to present. So, again, please be patient.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
I think if you were objective about this you would recognize how obviously annoyed & frustrated you are, as well as that (at this point) I'm perfectly calm.
*chokes on glass of water*

SW, question: on a scale of 1 to 10, how self-aware do you believe you are?

------

quote:
After all this I -owe- DB full explanations...
No, you don't. You just say, "Look, I was being stupid and I'd like to drop this now. Friends?" And then eat a sandwich with the crusts on to feel extra manly.
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GaalDornick
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^
Now you can see the difference between actual baiting and Dogbreath's posts

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Samprimary
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that begs the question: can an entirely warranted response to a statement that is on its face ridiculous count as 'baiting'
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by GaalDornick:
^
Now you can see the difference between actual baiting and Dogbreath's posts

Now? I already backed off that...
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GaalDornick
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Yeah. Well, maybe baiting isn't the right word, I just used it because it seemed to be getting thrown around a lot. But regardless of how ridiculous the statement was, a response like that doesn't help the situation any.
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TomDavidson
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My hope is that it will make Stone Wolf shut up, and maybe later realize he's being ridiculous.

If he keeps trying to explain to Dogbreath why he (Stone Wolf) is really the reasonable one -- by laying out, or just promising to lay out, the reasons he believes constitute proof that Dogbreath is really the unreasonable one -- he will dig himself further and further into this conversational hole with no possible payoff.

The optimal thing for him to do is to stop talking about this. If he does so in a graceful and mature and not excessively introspective way, he can save face and self-respect and win a little respect back at the same time. That is the only possible positive result for him, out of all possible interactions. The sooner he realizes this, the better.

---------

SW, here's the thing, and I'm elaborating on this because I really don't want you to feel like I'm taking sides, or even that I particularly have an opinion on which "side" I should take, or even that I'm aware of "sides": you cannot explain to someone else why you are fighting with them. You can only stop fighting them. Trying to convince someone else that they have deserved your scorn and derision is like trying to explain a joke while keeping it funny.

If you have to explain it, it isn't worth explaining it.

This is why, in recent years, I have made a practice of sweeping majestically out of a room whenever I make a joke that no one seems to get.

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Stone_Wolf_
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Origginally posted by Toomy D:

SW, question: on scale of 1 to 10, how self-aware do you believe you are?

An order of magnitude more than when I started here...Rakeesh, Orincoro, Samp and your own scorn to my more obvious self delusions helped achive that. [Smile]

As to currently...not enough for my liking. I still react and then think. Working on it.

I'm not comparing my own levels to DBs...just saying from my point of view that his claims of nothing but kindness & restraint are self delusions on his part.

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Rakeesh
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Your last paragraph is significantly different than past accusations you've made on the same subject. Was it a deliberate and comprehensive statement of how you feel presently, or a quick summing up because you're busy?
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Stone_Wolf_
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"That is the only possible positive result for him, out of all possible interactions. The sooner he realizes this, the better."

Not at all. Either my explanations will make enough sense that my position becomes widely acceptable OR my explanation falls flat on my face but exposes the flaw in my thinking so that y'all can correct it.

Regardless I'm not gunna make all this noise and then not even -attempt- to justify that. And anyway way, I doubt DB just wants toplacate him and aapologize because of peer pressure & not sincerely.

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Stone_Wolf_
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At a WalGreens...always busy... [Smile]
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kmbboots
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SW, forgive me but this whole thread reads like a plea for attention. I think that you are taking this all way too personally and mistaking disagreement and indifference as hostility. You are looking for some emotional closure or reassurance that isn't there and that DB does not owe you.
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Stone_Wolf_
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Wait...I better understand Rakeesh's question...new attitude about it.

booots...that seems like consensus...but since I'm commited at this point following through maybe you try and reserve judgement until such time as I am able to better compose my argument.

Patience folks...I'm in Albertsons.

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by Stone_Wolf_:
his claims of nothing but kindness & restraint

Where?
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Stone_Wolf_
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DB: "Not that I'm sure anything I say at all will convince you of that, since you apparently somehow interpret any gesture of good will or attempt at appeasement on my part as arrogance, or an attempt to claim moral superiority. "


"Seriously, and I'm being completely earnest here, what did I ever do to you? I've tried very hard to be polite and kind and gracious to you, and yet you continue to take shots at me seemingly out of the blue. "

Lots more imply it...seriously...please wait...I'm not ready yet...soon...Patience please!

[ February 19, 2015, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: Stone_Wolf_ ]

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kmbboots
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SW, what you just quoted and what you said it meant are not the same thing.

"Not that I'm sure anything I say at all will convince you of that, since you apparently somehow interpret any gesture of good will or attempt at appeasement on my part as arrogance, or an attempt to claim moral superiority. " is not the same as DB claiming only kindness and restraint.

Dude, really. Stop. Digging.

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jebus202
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Can we please get back to what's going on with SW's wife? I feel like that's the thing we should be talking about. Also is her name Patience? Your last sentence almost sounds like you accidentally started typing mid-coitus. Is that what happened?
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Stone_Wolf_
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Dude, no. Really.

I promised.

It's gunna happen.

If after I've said my piece you still disagree at least then you can specify -why-...you kno that will be my first question if your mind remains unchanged.

You KNOW I'm convincable...having played a large role in changing my mind about the definition of rape.

I'm not yelling...not throwing things or being rude.

I'm trying to accomplish something here. Help or get out of the way!

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Dogbreath
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
SW, what you just quoted and what you said it meant are not the same thing.

"Not that I'm sure anything I say at all will convince you of that, since you apparently somehow interpret any gesture of good will or attempt at appeasement on my part as arrogance, or an attempt to claim moral superiority. " is not the same as DB claiming only kindness and restraint.

Dude, really. Stop. Digging.

Thank you, Kate. (And Tom, Gaal, Rakeesh, sam, et al) I've tried to remain relatively distant and indifferent in this thread to try and avoid further provocation (and the response to my latest question seems to justify that, or maybe indicate I haven't been distant *enough*), but I do appreciate it.

quote:
Originally posted by jebus202:
Can we please get back to what's going on with SW's wife? I feel like that's the thing we should be talking about. Also is her name Patience? Your last sentence almost sounds like you accidentally started typing mid-coitus. Is that what happened?

That is extremely inappropriate. Please stop.
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Stone_Wolf_
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quote:
Originally posted by jebus202:
Can we please get back to what's going on with SW's wife? I feel like that's the thing we should be talking about. Also is her name Patience? Your last sentence almost sounds like you accidentally started typing mid-coitus. Is that what happened?

Hehe...no it's Nicole. And while MOST of my posts are written as a multitask...it would be downright rude to the Mrs.!
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jebus202
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Nicole sounds like an absolute saint, you should cherish her.
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